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Post by theillusiveman on Dec 26, 2021 12:43:25 GMT
In The Response to Kestrel: The Whole Structure of The 8th Doctor Big Finish Range Formula has gotten incredibly Stagnant and Stranded is just as formulaic as Doom Coalition and Ravenous Stranded suffers from: - The Same Companions: Liv and Helen ( Helen and Liv have been together with 8 for 12 Box sets Doom Coalition Vol 1 to Stranded Vol 4) They need to go if Big Finish wants to breathe new life into The 8th Doctor Audios, i know they are giving Character Development to Liv and Helen in Stranded but this should have been done ages ago and it feels like Dorney and Fitton are keeping them on metaphorical life support.
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- The Same Marketing Cliche of a Steven Moffatt Era Character shoehorned into The 8th Doctor Range: Doom Coalition had River Song, Ravenous had River and Missy and Stranded had The Curator however unlike River and Missy. The Curator is probably the most blatant obvious marketing grab to get people to listen to Stranded- The Curator added nothing to Vol 1 you could easily remove him and nothing would change at all and Vol 2 apart from talking to a character you could have easily added an original character in his place and nothing would have changed. Thank god he was finally used well in UNIT Nemesis Vol 1
- Once Again a 4 Part Boxset series
Some of The Other issues i have with Stranded are: - The Idea of The Doctor being stranded on Earth has been done before Twice Once in The Third Doctor Era and The Other in The 8th Doctor Books which were far more interesting and did more character development and Exploration of The 8th Doctor then This Range
- Prioritizing Character over Plot- While that is not an inherently a bad thing it makes it hard when half of the characters i dont care about. I Dont Care about The Residents of Baker Street, I Dont Care about Tania and Andy who i find boring and in Andy's case annoying (mind you Modern Who's Male Companions seem to be The Comic Relief Stereotype)
- Paul McGann's Performance- it boggles my mind how inconsistent Paul's performance is in the Stranded series seems to have him utterly excited when the script surely should have him bored and when something exciting should be happening in the script he sounds so disinterested (Best example: Volume 2's First Episode with The Tardis beginning to heal McGann sounds like he is phoning in his performance and couldn't care less- i am willing to give Big Finish the benefit of the doubt if its due to remote recording as Paul sounded like he woke up when he recorded The Timelord Victorious audios but darn surely they could have gotten him to do a different take
- I am going to single out the episode which made me really abandon this series was Vol 2's Finale nothing happened it was back and forth and the reveal at the end made me just shake my head at how laughable it was. not to mention the episode itself made me fall asleep several times so getting through was a chore and made me regret the $20 Purchase (Thank God i didn't get the CDs because paying more than $20 for this would have hurt so much more)
So TLDR; Stranded is the point where The 8th Doctor desperately needs a reboot (ala Blood of The Daleks or Dark Eyes 1 ) with a Single New Companion (so that The Doctor and the companion can properly feel like team rather than having a third wheel) and a new outfit (Its funny how they still use the Leather Jacket look while in the first story they explain that The Doctor sold his leather jacket) i just really hope that The 8th Doctor 2022 Box sets are the fresh start with no returning companions (No Helen, No Tania, No Andy and certainly No Liv)
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Post by johnhurtdoctor on Dec 26, 2021 15:00:47 GMT
A glib one line post from the forum Scrooge, clearly out when the three Spirits came to visit. Never change. Mostly because...I doubt you could. Misery loves company they say...I think you may find happiness makes the company love you. What the hell are you on about?
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Post by Kestrel on Dec 26, 2021 23:06:18 GMT
Flip-Flop, Barbarians & Samurai, and Exile all contain bigoted themes, whether "intentional" or not -- and I'd further argue that intent is irrelevant. Yes, Big Finish is usually good about this stuff -- but they also produce an enormous volume of content and are fallible.
I also disagree -- in the strongest possible manner -- with the notion that all emotional responses are equally valid. That just seems... profoundly reductive. And somewhat silly, especially in the context of this conversation, as we're talking about numerical scoring. It creates this bizarre scenario where someone can say, "well, I felt nothing, so it's a 1/5" in one breath, and in the next, "Oh, god, it's horse****, so 3/5" -- which, I'm sorry, is just too inconsistent for me to take seriously. It's like we're grading with absolute numbers, so a -3 winds up with the same value as 3.
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Post by mark687 on Dec 26, 2021 23:17:33 GMT
Flip-Flop, Barbarians & Samurai, and Exile all contain bigoted themes, whether "intentional" or not -- and I'd further argue that intent is irrelevant. Yes, Big Finish is usually good about this stuff -- but they also produce an enormous volume of content and are fallible. I also disagree -- in the strongest possible manner -- with the notion that all emotional responses are equally valid. That just seems... profoundly reductive. And somewhat silly, especially in the context of this conversation, as we're talking about numerical scoring. It creates this bizarre scenario where someone can say, "well, I felt nothing, so it's a 1/5" in one breath, and, "Oh, god, it's horse****, so 3/5" -- which, I'm sorry, is just too inconsistent for me to take seriously. It's like we're grading with absolute numbers, so a -3 winds up with the same value as 3. Drama should suit the Individual at all times then? Impossible Regards mark687
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Post by Kestrel on Dec 26, 2021 23:19:36 GMT
Of course not, now you're just being ridiculous. As in lazy straw-mans like that deserve ridicule.
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Post by Audio Watchdog on Dec 26, 2021 23:23:24 GMT
Flip-Flop, Barbarians & Samurai, and Exile all contain bigoted themes, whether "intentional" or not -- and I'd further argue that intent is irrelevant. Yes, Big Finish is usually good about this stuff -- but they also produce an enormous volume of content and are fallible. I also disagree -- in the strongest possible manner -- with the notion that all emotional responses are equally valid. That just seems... profoundly reductive. And somewhat silly, especially in the context of this conversation, as we're talking about numerical scoring. It creates this bizarre scenario where someone can say, "well, I felt nothing, so it's a 1/5" in one breath, and, "Oh, god, it's horse****, so 3/5" -- which, I'm sorry, is just too inconsistent for me to take seriously. It's like we're grading with absolute numbers, so a -3 winds up with the same value as 3. Thanks for blithely dismissing thoughts & study of art dating back forty plus years. I’ll just continue being profoundly reductive, silly and inconsistent while I continue to search for answers.
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Post by Kestrel on Dec 26, 2021 23:27:21 GMT
I mean, if you're going to conflate your single-sentence opinion with the entire field of art criticism over the past half-century, you're not really making any effort to shrug off the, "reductive" label, huh?
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Post by mark687 on Dec 26, 2021 23:27:39 GMT
Sorry what are you trying to say?
Opinion is subjective whatever the circumstance so don't have one?
Regards
mark687
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Post by Kestrel on Dec 26, 2021 23:29:00 GMT
At this point it seems like you'd rather just talk to yourself. That would certainly be easier than inventing statements on my behalf.
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Post by Audio Watchdog on Dec 26, 2021 23:31:55 GMT
I mean, if you're going to conflate your single-sentence opinion with the entire field of art criticism over the past half-century, you're not really making any effort to shrug off the, "reductive" label, huh? Nice. Dismiss, degrade and then make it my fault when I say something.
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Post by Kestrel on Dec 26, 2021 23:44:40 GMT
I apologize if you found my adjectives inappropriate. They were aimed at your argument, not your person. But if we're going to talk semantics, let me point out that I did not dismiss your argument--I refuted it. If you find my reasoning flawed, please feel free to point it out; if you think I'm misunderstanding it, please feel free to clarify.
I have no real desire to participate in any overtly antagonistic conversation like this. Simply: it's not fun. If you think there's more to discuss here, I'll do so, but otherwise perhaps we should collectively acknowledge that this topic has run its course.
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Post by Audio Watchdog on Dec 26, 2021 23:56:34 GMT
I apologize if you found my adjectives inappropriate. They were aimed at your argument, not your person. But if we're going to talk semantics, let me point out that I did not dismiss your argument--I refuted it. If you find my reasoning flawed, please feel free to point it out; if you think I'm misunderstanding it, please feel free to clarify. I have no real desire to participate in any overtly antagonistic conversation like this. Simply: it's not fun. If you think there's more to discuss here, I'll do so, but otherwise perhaps we should collectively acknowledge that this topic has run its course. Refute means to disprove something straight up. I fail to see how you have refuted my subjective opinion. A simple “I disagree” would have kept it from becoming antagonistic. I disagree with your opinion but I don’t feel the need to try and put it, or by extension, you down.
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Post by Kestrel on Dec 27, 2021 0:12:14 GMT
"Refute" also means "to deny the accuracy" of a statement, which is what I did (or tried to do). But follow this road much further and it ends, invariably, at slinging dictionary links back and forth. Personally, I would never just say, "I disagree" and leave it at that--doing so would be, to me, rude and dismissive. If I disagree with someone. I think the correct course of action is to either be silent, or explain specifically why and how I disagree. Which, as you can see, is precisely what I'm doing here. As this place is a forum, the latter option seems most appropriate.
Like... I do not want to be dismissive. If I think something is wrong, I'm going to do my best to explain how and why. I realize I have difficulty affecting a properly neutral tone (at least in terms of how others perceive it) and seldom pick up on subtext. It's an ASD thing. This is why I make an effort to explain myself thoroughly--and generally try to be careful and deliberate with my language. Clearly I have not been sufficiently vigilant with myself here and for that, I also apologize.
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Post by Audio Watchdog on Dec 27, 2021 0:32:22 GMT
"Refute" also means "to deny the accuracy" of a statement, which is what I did (or tried to do). But follow this road much further and it ends, invariably, at slinging dictionary links back and forth. Personally, I would never just say, "I disagree" and leave it at that--doing so would be, to me, rude and dismissive. If I disagree with someone. I think the correct course of action is to either be silent, or explain why I disagree. Which, as you can see, is precisely what I'm doing here. As this place is a forum, the latter option seems most appropriate. Like... I do not want to be dismissive. If I think something is wrong, I'm going to do my best to explain how and why. I realize I have difficulty affecting a properly neutral tone (at least in terms of how others perceive it) and seldom pick up on subtext. It's an ASD thing. This is why I make an effort to explain myself thoroughly--and generally try to be careful and deliberate with my language. Clearly I have not been sufficiently vigilant with myself here and for that, I also apologize. But the accuracy only applies to you and how you view it. We are talking about art and how we perceive & process that, yes? I mean we aren’t talking about the Earth being round or covid vaccines being effective or Han Solo shooting first. I am more than willing to discuss opinions, how I came to them and trying to possibly move someone closer to my way of thinking but in the end, it is my/your opinion and neither of us is right or wrong. I don’t have a problem with anyone disagreeing with my subjective opinions, hell….disagreements are what make things interesting…the problem I had here was the way you were expressing your disagreement. i accept your word that what you were saying wasn’t meant to be personal or confrontational. I can only say that that was the way I perceived them. Still, as you say, conflict in this kind of setting is no fun and I have no desire to argue in circles over something that is a personal preference. Anyway, i hope you had a happy holiday.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 27, 2021 5:01:05 GMT
I will say, just in terms of numerical score, I do believe review values are of little worth anyway. Its why on my own reviews of music or movies online, and now Youtube, I do not use any kind of scoring system. As Audio says, dont like something? Tell me why. Your 2 stars tell me very, very little of what the issue is, maybe it is an issue I wouldn't have and it would be a 5/5 for me if I were scoring.
Take a recent example, Timelord007 said if Mel Gibson was in Fury Road and not Tom Hardy, it would be a much better film and he would rate it accordingly. Now I do not feel that way. Tom was terrific and Mad Max was not the "point" of that story anyway. It was Furiosa/Charlize Therons story. But because I know thats how Timelord feels, I can take it into account when he says it makes it a 1/5 not a 4/5 or whatever, he explained it and I can understand his point if not agree with it. Without that context, the score means little. Its also why a certain poster who has seen about 50 "single worst films ever made" has little cred - the boy cried wolf and once more never offers context to "Well, why is it so bad?". You cannot debate that way. In some ways I blame Ebert & Siskel, thumbs up and star ratings? Thats what people quote from them, not the expansive reviews. I do not believe they intended to at all but they turned criticism into a very facile sport. Binary in the case of every movie is either thumbs up or down. And any serious critique or response to art is just not that simple.
Yet, yes, I stand by the notion that I espoused for many years on here and the previous forum. Be bold. Do not aim for safe. It doesn't mean every story must be "epic", but there are so many ways to tell a story, so many devices, tools - use them. It can alter the story. As I said of Dorneys story here, the last one - the reverse narrative IS the story. The plot itself is relatively simple and would be somewhat flat told in order but in John deciding to make the story backwards - and for us, the audience, not for the characters like most "time is backwards" stories - he made it better. By looking at the same plot..but from a different storytelling device. Same with art. Take music - heard Greta Van Fleet? They are a new band who sound like Led Zeppelin. And I mean exactly like Led Zeppelin. A tall singer who sounds like Plant. A uitar player who even moves like Jimmy Page. They add zip, nada, nothin to the Zep sound, so why would I care when I have the real bands entire output? You can be influenced, inspired and...sometimes, even nick an idea (Zep did!) but when your two albums are nothin but copies (they even do Plant and his Tolkien love) you need somethin else to add to the brew or you are middle of the road, derivative and of little consequence. There is a reason we remember the true artists. Vermeer did not paint like Da Vinci. Magritte - my favourite - did not paint like Picasso. Dylan does not make music like Frank Zappa. Tennyson did not write like Wordsworth. Orson Welles did not direct like John Ford.
As someone who is somewhat of a pop culture student, amateur as it is, there are many out there who just wanted to be "new Elvis" "next Beatles" "act like Errol Flynn", "write like Kerouac". And most are lost to mainstream culture because they did not tell their stories, make their art..but a version of someone elses.
Just make me feel somethin. If its anger - sometimes that is what you should feel. If its hate, well, once more - if the baddies won...why is that not a valid response? Indifference is the true enemy of art.
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Post by theillusiveman on Dec 27, 2021 6:58:10 GMT
Well this thread has gone south of the topic....
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Post by Deleted on Dec 27, 2021 8:17:00 GMT
Well this thread has gone south of the topic.... Quite the opposite. The discussion is to the heart of what Stranded makes some feel, or not as the case may be. Its a release a few days off a month old. Most are already falling down the thread list after a fortnight if not a few days sometimes. I put my review up already. Its not a one-and-done affair however, but a discussion. More interesting to take the path of exploring why people have certain reactions, no? Why some see this (and I do not, I think it is easily the best Stranded and one of the best 8th Doc boxes in a fair while as I said in my review) as middle of the road and that is bad because mediocrity is nothingness , but some see it as middle of the road and that is fine because forgettable is better than bad. A subject I find more interesting than just...not talking about it because we all posted our reviews already. The Oxford definition of forum is "noun. /ˈfɔːrəm/ /ˈfɔːrəm/ an event or medium where people can exchange opinions and ideas on a particular issue; a meeting organized for this purpose." I find that discussions like this are a place where the word actually works rather than just a queue of "my two cents" without discussion, ideas and contextualisation. The friends I have made on here, and the old forum, have been via such discussions and understanding each others views deeply rather than "I liked it" "I didnt".
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Post by Deleted on Dec 27, 2021 9:40:09 GMT
I dunno, those of us who don't like Stranded don't seem to actually hate it, they just seem more... ambivalent/disinterested, which I'd interpret as a score of a 3 or, at worst, 2. Maybe I'm wrong? 1s should be the worst of the worst, and if anyone here genuinely thinks it's that egregiously bad... please speak up! I can definitely understand some of the stated arguments against this range that have been made here, but rankin it's at the very bottom--alongside absolute drivel like Exile--requires at least some explanation, right? And until we get four people saying, "I think this is one of the worst sets/stories ever," I'm just gonna assume that at least some of those votes were made in error. Yeah, I love this set, but I can understand why people are not happy with the arc. But a 1/5? Yeah I was wondering about that right before I read your posts. I think about the releases I believe are a 1/5: Exile, Nekromateia, Minuet in Hell, and a few more and I don't understand it. They didn’t do a 0 😂
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Post by tuigirl on Dec 27, 2021 9:40:51 GMT
And here I was, thinking I was critical of the release. This has now gone very deep and analytical. I just did not like the first two stories because they were so sakes and similar to other, previous, better stories. I was not thinking of the psychological implications.
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Post by Timelord007 on Dec 27, 2021 9:45:51 GMT
Got the box set but not yet listened to it, this has gone straight up my list to be my next listen.
Stranded from what my opinion is of 1 & 2 is a marmite style of storytelling, no huge battles, no universe saving heroics, more human character based stories centered on characters in a apartment complex whom meet the Doctor & how meeting him changes there lives.
I'm enjoying this arc so far but i understand it may not be to everybody's type of storytelling.
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