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Post by BHTvsTFC on Dec 5, 2021 23:39:21 GMT
I'm not convinced that the Daleks would fall for the Sontarans plan. They are clever enough when it comes to reacting to the Flux and it's consequences I would imagine. Not quite the disservice in Day of the Doctor when it was revealed they would just shoot each other if Gallifrey disappeared but not far off!
Good and bad in equal measure to be honest, but I think overall Kevin McNally was probably the best thing about the series, with John Bishop not far behind.
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Post by Whovitt on Dec 5, 2021 23:39:54 GMT
Having re-watched the five preceding episodes yesterday evening, I'm not that blown away by Flux. I know a lot of people have loved it, but I've found it all to be pretty standard fair, and this finale was no exception. This "biggest adventure yet" thing was full (as others have already noted) of so much stuff that was ultimately irrelevant: Vinder and Bel (and their "beautiful, as yet unborn child"... Tigme served absolutely no purpose in the end and could easily have been scrapped, and that expositional dialogue was easily the worst in the entire series), Diane, Kate, the Grand Serpent, etc. And there are other things that I don't think were ever properly explained: how did the Sontarans change history so that Russia never existed, and how was that undone (or wasn't it)? The Grand Serpent must have changed the course of UNIT's history over the decades, but those changes remain in place. How has that not had some effect on the world (or are we really supposed to believe that this was the original chain of events, however ludicrous that idea is)? And WHY WASN'T THERE A RESET BUTTON AT THE END OF THIS??? The universe was utterly destroyed by the Flux. The final point of destruction was Earth, and we see the Flux gets there when it destroys the Dalek, Cybermen, and Sontaran fleets. There's literally nothing else out there now! But we're just going to continue on without mentioning that...?
As someone else mentioned earlier, the Flux was compressing everything in the universe in Survivors of the Flux, but now it's an antimatter wave sweeping across the universe. We all know the collision of matter and antimatter results in complete destruction, so anything the Flux came into contact with is gone. Like, completely, utterly, totally gone. There is no way back. So our universe now consists of Earth and... yeah, just Earth.
The death of Jericho, on reflection, was purely an attempt to upset people (it upset me!), just so that not everyone made it out alive. From the way it was shot, I thought he deliberately threw his teleportation ring across the room. I rewound it and everything and it still looks deliberate, as if he was supposed to throw it on the ground and some portal was going to be created that he could step through or something. But I guess not. Also, I was 100% certain that the moment he got zapped back to 1901 in Village of the Angels was supposed to imply (from the reflection of the Angel in his eye) that he'd ended up like Amy in The Time of Angels. But it doesn't seem like it... I even discussed this my sister at the time and she thought the same thing. We were both so disappointed that he was going to become an Angel. But, you know, he didn't... Maybe it's just us, but I don't think they communicated what was going on in that moment very well. Also, on the topic of Village, what was that giant slab of stone all the Angels were in? Was it supposed to be some kind of space ship? I'd assumed it was some kind of prison, which is why they were stuck in the rock, but it was never actually explained.
As for the fob watch, of course we'll see it again. Like the discussion with Time alluding to Thirteen's demise (hello, complete-re-tread-of-the-RTD-eras-finale,-including-the-Master-and-all!), we can expect to see it again at some point in the next three episodes. Unless, of course, it's going to turn out like half the recurring cast of Flux and be ultimately irrelevant.
Reading this back, it all seems really critical. I guess I'm still trying to process it all at the moment. I usually enjoy things more on a second viewing, and I have only seen the finale once. There's a chance I'll be won around on it when the Blu-ray comes out. At the end of the day though, I'm just really disappointed by the pointless "return of Kate" in this story. She never even gets to react to meeting a new doctor (which was always so fun with the Brigadier). The Doctor just notices she's there and then moves on. I think Kate only says two sentences to the Doctor in the entire series! I guess I shouldn't have set myself the expectation that they'd get a lot of interaction (but then we also get a pretty good indication that we'll be seeing Kate again during the specials as well, so fingers crossed, eh?).
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Post by nottenst on Dec 6, 2021 4:22:56 GMT
I wish they hadn't released that poster of the New Year's Eve poster before airing this episode. As soon as I saw that Jericho was not included I knew he wouldn't make it out of this episode. Still, he had "an awfully big adventure." A good end for him.
So, the Daleks are back in the New Year's Eve special. So, how much of a reset is there of the events in this series? Just what actually sticks around? Are the tunnels back to just being tunnels? (I would guess that is definitely the case as time isn't weird anymore and the TARDIS looks healed.) If the Daleks, Sontarans and Cybermen can return why can't the Lupari? I hope they explain some of that in the next special or specials, but I doubt they will.
So, we need "The Adventures of Kate Stewart, leader of the Resistance". We need "The Travels of Karvanista, Vinder, and Bel." Will we get them from Big Finish or elsewhere?
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Post by elkawho on Dec 6, 2021 4:43:17 GMT
It was...ok. Chibnall seems to have fallen back into some of the issues I've had with his previous series: unfinished threads with characters that end up being unimportant (many of you have already pointed that out), info dumping, and my particular pet peeve of great characters standing around on their marks doing nothing nor responding to events like real people. Not a word from Kate regarding this new Doctor. She was great last episode but did nothing in this one. Williamson responding to The Doctor and the information she gives him ("your too important to history") without asking why. I even find Karvanista's reaction to his entire species' annihilation rather down-played. This is a character that had tantrums when "his human" didn't do as he was told. And the Doctor barely batted an eye regarding this genocide. I mean, Ten and Twelve would be spitting angry at the Sontarans and then the guilt of being there but being unable to save them. And yes. I agree with Whovitt regarding the death of Jericho. It was a stupid way to kill off one of the best characters that Chibnall has introduced just for the sake of dying. And I didn't particularly like the personification of Time. I don't think we always need to have the Doctor's regeneration foretold or expected, and it seemed rather clunky to me. I mean, it's been done before. So I didn't hate it, but I wanted to to be oh, so much better.
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Post by constonks on Dec 6, 2021 6:23:33 GMT
Yeah, unfortunately, this left me with the same "oh that's it?" as The Timeless Children. Some interesting ideas and scenes, but when examined as a story, it really just falls apart. Maybe I'll enjoy it more in retrospect, but it has that ever-present Who problem of super cool setup, unsatisfying payoff.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2021 7:30:11 GMT
when you rewatch it it becomes very apparent that nothing makes any real sense at all 😂Visually it is great but there is no real substance about it and nothing is explained to any satisfactory degree but...it still is better than stranded for me so for once Telly Who trumps BF Who 😂
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Post by Timelord007 on Dec 6, 2021 8:29:33 GMT
A mixture of good & bad, obviously the fob watch will now be used to give the Doctor regeneration energy but it'll be at the cost of her past memories the ole past is in the past scenario.
Professor Jericho death was heartbreaking he is one of the best written characters this season & i was hoping he'd join UNIT.
Why was the serpent guy obsessed with Kate Stewart? & the Lupari massacre needed more emotion as this arc felt glossed over & added for shock value.
Not buying the Daleks & Cybermen would be so easily tricked by the Sontarans no way would Daleks agree to a truce they have no compassion for reason they wish to only conquer & destroy not do deals.
Overall i rate it a 3/5.
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Dec 6, 2021 8:40:40 GMT
A mixture of good & bad, obviously the fob watch will now be used to give the Doctor regeneration energy but it'll be at the cost of her past memories the ole past is in the past scenario. Yep.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2021 8:44:34 GMT
A mixture of good & bad, obviously the fob watch will now be used to give the Doctor regeneration energy but it'll be at the cost of her past memories the ole past is in the past scenario. Professor Jericho death was heartbreaking he is one of the best written characters this season & i was hoping he'd join UNIT. Why was the serpent guy obsessed with Kate Stewart? & the Lupari massacre needed more emotion as this arc felt glossed over & added for shock value. Not buying the Daleks & Cybermen would be so easily tricked by the Sontarans no way would Daleks agree to a truce they have no compassion for reason they wish to only conquer & destroy not do deals. Overall i rate it a 3/5. I think basically Chris has left things suspended he has done what he needed to get out of his system.If anything he has attempted to make massive changes in spite of opposition.Personally i dont like the changes or i would have liked the changes if they had occurred within the present run of regenerations (that the events had occurred within the Troughton regeneration to Pertwee).He threw so much at the viewer as if he had to just get all his ideas out there but he also left so much unexplained also .The ACTUAL state of the universe at the end.I was like great daleks wiped out only for them to reappear next story 😂. Anyways its done it is out there and am sure some talented writers down the line maybe in 30 years will complete the tapestry satisfactorily 😂
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Post by mark687 on Dec 6, 2021 10:36:00 GMT
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Post by johnhurtdoctor on Dec 6, 2021 10:50:15 GMT
As poor Jericho said, "what an awfully big adventure." I loved it. This has been my favourite season in years.
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Dec 6, 2021 11:01:32 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2021 11:09:42 GMT
I was just asking myself this question-Was there anything after The Doctor who Movie that i totally ,really needed? Am thinking it over now lol
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shutupbanks
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There’s a horror movie called Alien? That’s really offensive. No wonder everyone keeps invading you.
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Post by shutupbanks on Dec 6, 2021 11:14:06 GMT
I thoroughly enjoyed that. It moved fast and managed to finish the story with only a few unanswered questions and plot queries. I’m probably a lot more forgiving because looking at it with the know.edge that it was four episodes shorter than it was originally planned to be, the writer in me can see some places where episodes and plot lines have been cut short: the Jodie trinity was quite possibly the obvious one, giving her three episodes of material in roughly one.
That said, there were some flaws, but I do t think they were unforgivable. Karvanista’s people being slaughtered offscreen is no better or worse than the innumerable offscreen revolutions we’ve had throughout the history of the programme and we at least saw Karvanista mourning them.
Jericho’s death was just superb. Like Doctor Ruth, he was in the story long enough that I didn’t get too used to him and he didn’t suffer from character decay the way that other guest-then-regular characters have become in other shows (Spike from Buffy being my go-to example).
I loved that Bel and Vinder might just be an ordinary couple with nothing significant attached to their existence and I’m hoping that they have a long set of adventures with Karvanista.
Dan and Claire not getting together was a surprise but a realistic one and one that frees Dan up for further adventures with 13 and Yaz.
Williamson existing only as a creator of plot coupons is probably my biggest gripe: he served no real purpose to the story beyond being the builder of the tunnels.
The Sontarans were terrific in this, aside from the one with the sugar addiction who seemed willing to sell out his army for chocolate.
Overall, I thought it was great: I’m sure that a rewatch is going to raise some questions and reveal some plot/character details I hadn’t seen previously (how did Yaz, Dan and Jericho escape from the village at the edge of the universe?) but I didn’t think of any while I was watching because I was so caught up by events and the storytelling.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2021 11:16:05 GMT
I wish they hadn't released that poster of the New Year's Eve poster before airing this episode. As soon as I saw that Jericho was not included I knew he wouldn't make it out of this episode. Still, he had "an awfully big adventure." A good end for him. So, the Daleks are back in the New Year's Eve special. So, how much of a reset is there of the events in this series? Just what actually sticks around? Are the tunnels back to just being tunnels? (I would guess that is definitely the case as time isn't weird anymore and the TARDIS looks healed.) If the Daleks, Sontarans and Cybermen can return why can't the Lupari? I hope they explain some of that in the next special or specials, but I doubt they will. So, we need "The Adventures of Kate Stewart, leader of the Resistance". We need "The Travels of Karvanista, Vinder, and Bel." Will we get them from Big Finish or elsewhere?We REALLY don’t 😂
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Post by bonehead on Dec 6, 2021 12:41:53 GMT
Random thoughts:
This was a joy and I loved it. After six speedily-paced, gorgeous looking 6 episodes, we wrap up in a finale that answers some questions and leaves some open. The wonderful Sontaran corner shop scene is, I suppose, Chris Chibnall's version of 'a Yeti on your loo in Tooting Bec' (oft used Jon Pertwee quote). Some elements of this proved to be red herrings (as I hoped they might), but were entertaining enough in their own right to merit inclusion.
I do have a problem with how gullible the Daleks were (just as they were at the end of the last New Year's special), and the Cybermen too, especially at the hands of Sontarans, who are not renowned for their brains. But that's okay. I can live with that.
Loved the moments between the Doctor and Yaz, and was very happy to find she and Dan are staying on for at least the next special. For some reason, I thought they might depart at the end of this.
Loved the face-off between Kavanista and the various Sontarans. In fact, we've had some great villians - old and new - this series: Swarm, Azure, The Great Serpent, some truly nasty Sontarans ...
.... there's even a warning about the Doctor's inevitable demise, which saddened me more than I thought it would.
I've loved every whirlwind second of this. Have I understood everything about this episode? Not a chance - but it'll be a pleasure to go through January's Blu-ray release again to pick up more pieces. Flux-ing brilliant.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2021 20:13:46 GMT
Just finished it. Quite enjoyable. There were flaws don’t get me wrong, but I still found it worthy of 5/5.
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Post by agentten on Dec 6, 2021 20:15:51 GMT
My thoughts about this week:
- While this is the weakest episode of Flux, I still found it quite entertaining. It moved at a fast pace, but still managed to find time for some slower paced character moments. The episode does quite a bit, but it leaves many things dangling. Because of that, I feel I can't quite fully judge it because there's clearly more to come regarding The Division and The Timeless Child, making this feel less like a season finale and more like a mid season finale with the promise of more to come. There are still many hours of this era left to view, so it remains to be seen how this episode will be viewed in retrospect, for me at least.
- I'm delighted that Dan will continue aboard the TARDIS as he was the real breakout for me in this series.
- The scene between The Doctor and Yaz was well written and expertly performed. The Doctor admitting that she did wrong by Yaz by not letting her in despite Yaz's loyalty and companionship was a great moment for a Doctor who has sometimes struggled with perceiving and acknowledging the emotions of the humans around her. I am sure this moment got some shippers' hearts racing, and I've no objection to that, through I'm not quite sure if the show is just giving shippers some fodder, or if it really is Chibber's intention to say that there are mutual romantic feelings in play here. The subtext of the relationship is pretty clear on Yaz's side, but still being played a bit close to the chest on the Doctor's side. Compared with the Doctor's other romantic relationships, The Doctor's feelings here are less clear to me, and I'm not sure if that's on purpose or not.
- I loved how magnificent the Sontarans were in this series. There was still plenty of the Sontaran humor that the new series has made a tradition, but it was balanced with the fire and fury of their collective ethos. It felt like the right balance of everything that's made them a fun villain race over the years. Also, the Rutin joke got a big laugh in this house.
- Whether Vinder and Bel are the Doctor's parents, as has been theorized by many, still remains to be seen, but the baby monitor that Bel carries around is starting to feel like it could be meant to be the conscious heart at the core of the TARDIS, the thing that makes The Doctor's TARDIS so special and so protective of The Doctor.
- I enjoyed the Grand Serpent story line, though I agree that it ultimately seemed to have little to do with the main story of Flux. As it stands right now, it seems like it would have made a great UNIT box set (and still might!). My final judgement on it will depend on whether there's more to do with the story line in the upcoming specials. I do appreciate that it brought Kate Stewart and UNIT back into the mix.
- Splitting The Doctor into three pieces was a clever way to address all the plates that Flux had spinning. It kept things moving at a good clip, was implemented in way that was easy to follow, and allowed for The Doctor to use that problem to her advantage to stop the Flux.
- The bit we got about how Karvanista couldn't talk to the Doctor about their shared past helps clear up something I've been hoping would be addressed: Why don't people talk about the other versions of The Doctor that are out there that were previously unknown to both The Doctor and the viewers? Hopefully, we'll get more info about that. I wonder if Karvanista's Doctor was Jo Martin. That would make for a fun Big Finish series.
All told, I'm reluctant to be too hard on the episode because I want to wait and see what the whole picture looks like. I did enjoy it, it was emotional and exciting, looked beautiful, Whittaker acted the heck out of it, and it felt like the most epic story Doctor Who has ever done. Those are no small achievements.
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Post by constonks on Dec 6, 2021 20:47:34 GMT
My thoughts about this week: - I am sure this moment got some shippers' hearts racing, and I've no objection to that, through I'm not quite sure if the show is just giving shippers some fodder, or if it really is Chibber's intention to say that there are mutual romantic feelings in play here. This was the only time I've ever seen what they're talking about. It was absolutely played like a romantic moment, complete with comedic interruption at the end. But it feels like a late-game addition to me. I like that joke even more in retrospect, because the alliance turned out to be a ruse. They weren't even willing to pretend to ally with the Rutans, even if it meant their destruction. Fantastic. We did already see them together in Once, Upon Time so I assume that she was. I liked the theory that Vinder and Yaz's agents were actually Lee and Gat from Fugitive of the Judoon and they were the Doctor's TARDIS team in that era.
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Dec 6, 2021 21:00:48 GMT
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