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Post by bonehead on Dec 6, 2021 13:02:54 GMT
I know we still have a handful of specials before Chris, Jodie, Mandip and John depart Doctor Who, but we've now come to the end of the third of Chris's three series.
To me, series 11, 12 and 13 could even have been helmed by a different showrunner, so different are they all from each other. We had the stripped down Series 11, with virtually no continuity issues. I almost think of this as a 'gentle' series, with smooth and edge-less Doctor and companions - whereas Series 12 introduced hints of an emotive backstory for Yaz, and a few edges to this new Doctor. Also, Series 12 was swamped with game-changing continuity events. Then, of course, came 'Flux', which has proven to me, to be bigger and more apocalyuptic than anything the show has attempted for a long while, which might well have perurcussions for whatever is to come. Also, there's also been something of a Dael trilogy thrown into the mix.
Anyway, I've loved these series a lot more than I thought I would, and I am genuinely sad the current team is departing.
What did you think? Are you glad it's (nearly) all over? Was it 'just right'? What have Chris Chibnall's three series meant to you?
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Post by theillusiveman on Dec 6, 2021 14:25:24 GMT
I am certainly Glad that the nightmare is almost over with only Three Specials Left till RTD comes back (though if he can save the show at this point is debatable)
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Post by charlesuirdhein on Dec 6, 2021 14:31:40 GMT
I am certainly Glad that the nightmare is almost over with only Three Specials Left till RTD comes back (though if he can save the show at this point is debatable)
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Post by theillusiveman on Dec 6, 2021 14:48:24 GMT
I am certainly Glad that the nightmare is almost over with only Three Specials Left till RTD comes back (though if he can save the show at this point is debatable) and.....
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Post by mark687 on Dec 6, 2021 15:15:14 GMT
I am certainly Glad that the nightmare is almost over with only Three Specials Left till RTD comes back (though if he can save the show at this point is debatable) I don't think he's killed the show, i do think he's clumsy handled and miss-judged the the viewing public's desire in having a time for the Doctor before Hartnell Regards mark687
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Post by theillusiveman on Dec 6, 2021 15:18:15 GMT
I am certainly Glad that the nightmare is almost over with only Three Specials Left till RTD comes back (though if he can save the show at this point is debatable) I don't think he's killed the show, i do think he's clumsy handled and miss-judged the the viewing public's desire in having a time for the Doctor before Hartnell Regards mark687 Never said that he Killed the show but has damaged it quite significantly with a lot of questionable decisions and poor writing
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Post by mark687 on Dec 6, 2021 15:25:56 GMT
I don't think he's killed the show, i do think he's clumsy handled and miss-judged the the viewing public's desire in having a time for the Doctor before Hartnell Regards mark687 Never said that he Killed the show but has damaged it quite significantly with a lot of questionable decisions and poor writing
Sorry but you said you doubt RTD can save it implying Chibnail may have fatally compromised it. Regards mark687
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Post by theillusiveman on Dec 7, 2021 7:21:47 GMT
Never said that he Killed the show but has damaged it quite significantly with a lot of questionable decisions and poor writing
Sorry but you said you doubt RTD can save it implying Chibnail may have fatally compromised it. Regards mark687 Yeah you are right it’s been fatally wounded and rethinking RTD has a massive challenge ahead I think the casting of 14 will be the biggest challenge of the revival
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Post by johnhurtdoctor on Dec 7, 2021 8:58:49 GMT
Started great & just got better & better for me. Still not looking forward to the return of RTD. But we will see.
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shutupbanks
Castellan
There’s a horror movie called Alien? That’s really offensive. No wonder everyone keeps invading you.
Likes: 5,661
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Post by shutupbanks on Dec 7, 2021 9:25:24 GMT
I’ve enjoyed all three seasons. They gave us three different kinds of storytelling: light on continuity and arcs, heavy on continuity and with an arc threaded all the way through, and a serial. And they were all pretty successful. As I’ve said elsewhere, this era has had a really even tone to it that I don’t feel we’ve had in the show for a while now.
As for Chibnall’s ideas and writing… I think he’s a different kind of writer to RTD and Moffat.Not better or worse, just different. He tells a story in his own way and while it isn’t as flashy or pyrotechnic or bombastic as those other gents, it works for me. Having that different kind of storytelling makes a change and offers real proof that the show can evolve into something different over time and tell different kinds of stories. I haven’t always liked his choices (I really can’t stand the TARDIS interior, for one thing) but I didn’t like all of Moffat’s decisions, or RTD’s, or Cartmel’s, or… you get the picture.
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Post by bonehead on Dec 7, 2021 10:03:19 GMT
I think, if Series 4 was RTD's most definitive, and Series 5 was Steven Moffat's, then 'Flux' has been the 'purest' example of Chris Chibnall's vision for the show. With that in mind, I'd love for him to have done one more to see where that would take us.
Some have described Series 11 and 12 as RTD tribute acts, and I don't completely agree, but I can see where the comparison comes from: viewer friendly, easy to relate to stories with attempts at crowd pleasing. 'Flux' has been no-one's tribute act, and is all the better for it.
If 'Flux' had been Jodie's first series, I wonder how that would have gone down with the negative social media complainers who were so intent on slating the show? We'll never know.
Chris Chibnall's time on the show has been so much better than I imagined it would be and I'll be sorry to see it go.
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Post by mark687 on Dec 7, 2021 11:55:13 GMT
Sorry but you said you doubt RTD can save it implying Chibnail may have fatally compromised it. Regards mark687 Yeah you are right it’s been fatally wounded and rethinking RTD has a massive challenge ahead I think the casting of 14 will be the biggest challenge of the revival The Casting of 14 will be key I agree.
Regards
mark687
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Post by mark687 on Dec 7, 2021 12:06:55 GMT
With only the Specials to go I'd still clarify the Era as JNT like with the rough edges almost sanded off, and I'd still ask him "How would the conversation go with your 1986/87 self".
Regards
mark687
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shutupbanks
Castellan
There’s a horror movie called Alien? That’s really offensive. No wonder everyone keeps invading you.
Likes: 5,661
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Post by shutupbanks on Dec 7, 2021 13:04:15 GMT
With only the Specials to go I'd still clarify the Era as JNT like with the rough edges almost sanded off, and I'd still ask him "How would the conversation go with your 1986/87 self". Regards mark687 He’s had that conversation already: he wrote to the Bakers a few months afterwards and apologised to them. They even wrote back and accepted it.
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Post by mark687 on Dec 7, 2021 13:28:42 GMT
With only the Specials to go I'd still clarify the Era as JNT like with the rough edges almost sanded off, and I'd still ask him "How would the conversation go with your 1986/87 self". Regards mark687 He’s had that conversation already: he wrote to the Bakers a few months afterwards and apologised to them. They even wrote back and accepted it. Really? Seriously I did not know that Heard it now, at least his kids liked it, and my point kind of stands that history in terms of public opinion of the show has come full circle, and i still think (now he's seemly sticking with it, he should more concise and give more forward momentum to having Fugitive Doc in play the same time as 13 rather then adding to the unseen backstory) Regards mark687
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Post by sherlock on Dec 7, 2021 13:32:58 GMT
He’s had that conversation already: he wrote to the Bakers a few months afterwards and apologised to them. They even wrote back and accepted it. Really? Seriously I did not know that Regards mark687 Yep he revealed this in a DWM interview back in 2007.
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Post by shallacatop on Dec 7, 2021 14:41:52 GMT
I’ve really enjoyed it so far and I can’t fault Chibnall for producing three very distinctly different series under his tenure. There’s a large amount of standout episodes, Jodie’s brilliant in the role, it’s produced two of my favourite companions in Graham and Dan, and it’s done great things with returning monsters.
It’s not without its flaws, which I’ve touched upon previously. Chibnall’s style of writing in his tenure has been exposition heavy, often recapping what’s happened just a few scenes before. Frantic in its pacing, but on reflection not a lot has always happened as a result of it.
Series 11 is in the wrong order. It’s a continuity free season, sure, but it’s not necessarily a arc lite. The Battle of Ranskoor Av Kolos should go straight after The Woman Who Fell to Earth and The Ghost Monument, as they form a loose trilogy and should give a clear view of who this new Doctor is. We then watch our new Doctor try to get her fam back home in The Witchfinders, The Tsuranga Conundrum and Arachnids in the UK. By the end the Fam are well and truly established and we go into Rosa, Kerblam!, Demons of the Punjab and It Takes You Away. Three miniseries of sorts that culminate in the running theme of the series; Grace’s passing, Graham coming to terms with it and Ryan calling him Grandad. We then have the epilogue to the series with Resolution and Ryan interacting with his dad.
For me, Ryan should’ve left in Resolution. He doesn’t contribute a great deal in Series 12. This era has also had trouble balancing a TARDIS team of four, often to the detriment of Jodie, who really shines on her own and interacting with the guest cast. Removing Ryan from Series 12 alleviates that and gives Graham and Yaz some time together. I’ve always thought their interactions in The Timeless Children and Revolution of the Daleks were odd because we’d only actually seen them properly interact once before in the previous 20 episodes… and that was in Demons of the Punjab! I’m amazed that was never picked up on during production.
Aside from the above, I love Series 12 and the sheer variety of stories and revelations. The Timeless Children revelation was something I was indifferent to at first, only because it’s one of those things that needs to do something with it to justify itself. I think we’ve gotten more of that in Flux, and I suspect we’ll continue to in the Specials. I would’ve liked a touch more in Flux, as the glimpses and hints we got were intriguing.
Flux itself was a journey I loved. I think it could’ve done with a nip and tuck, with some more progression earlier on in the series and a cull of some guest characters and subplots, but what we got was a great experience and I’m looking forward to a rewatch when the BluRay is out.
Apologies, bit of a ramble there! Just to reiterate, it’s been an era I’ve very much enjoyed. It has its issues, but so do all of them, and I always try to think about what I’d change rather than just critiquing.
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Post by tuigirl on Dec 8, 2021 19:34:29 GMT
Well, since Moffat has been my favorite showrunner, of course nobody will ever be as great as him. Did I enjoy what Chibnall did? Yes, for the most part. Did I like everything? No, of course not, but I also did not like everything Moffat did, either. There were some really great episodes and some pretty dull ones, but we even get this in my favorite series 10. For me, this still continues to be just a TV show, entertainment and escapism. I just cannot fathom all the heartache and desperation and "life on the line" attitute that some people brought into the discussion online. When reading some reviews/ comments (and I tried to avoid doing this) it sometimes sounded as if Chibnall had sacrificed their firstborn on some blood soaked altar. Do I think the series is doomed? No. I honestly cannot see much of an issue, apart from that viewing habits have changed. From the overall figures, this show is not doing too bad? I also do not think this era was as bad as some people try to make it out. Could it have been better? Of course. Especially some of the sense of direction, pacing, order of episodes and character work could have been improved. I agree with many of the points made above. However. I think that the visuals and the lighting and effects were spot on. That was near PERFECT. I could not wish for anything better. Do I think RTD will do better? Well, the RTD era never was my favorite. Honestly, I do not know if it will be better or worse in the future, and I will have to see how I will like it. I am curious what he will do, and what he will do differently, and I am cautiously optimistic. But I am not gawping in awe at RTD. But one thing for sure- This is RTD. He WILL do controversial things. It is his MO. He will enrage people, and as at guess, the same people who were ranting about Chibnall will also cry for RTD to be taken down. The only question is- how long will it take for this to happen? Maybe even before the series proper starts, or maybe 5 minutes in. All bets are off. Get out the popcorn.
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Dec 8, 2021 20:01:54 GMT
It's had ups and downs. It's been enjoyable, there's been a number of important pushes forward in diversifying the talent behind and in front of the camera (now I think any kid can truly dream of working on the show one day), but it's clear I splinter from a lot of other people - many here feel it got better in 12 and Flux, whereas I...
Yes yes, Tim Shaw was lame, yes Av Kolos was a damp squib and yes S11 didn't need to be arc-less for the whole 10 eps, but what won me over about S11 was its emotional honesty and earnestness. I still like it the best. It's the most characterful of Chibnall's seasons because it gave us more time to know and feel for the gang. We some wonderfully touching and personal moments - the regeneration speech, Ryan's bike riding, Grace trying to support others, Graham's grief processing in Arachnids (the mirror scene may be one of the best things Chibnall's written for the show, period) and then his pain and temptation in Away. S12 and Flux have been in such a hurry, so worried about losing the audience's attention, that we lost a lot of that and, as a result, stories like Can You Hear Me and four out of six chapters of Flux didn't have the impact they should've. Soon as a scene fulfilled its narrative purpose, bam, next scene or big setpiece.
You'll not be shocked that my favourite story of this era, great as Haunting and Village of the Angels were, is still Demons of the Punjab, and perhaps that colours my expectations some. It was such an honest, soulful and personal story, yet still delivered a compelling sci-fi take on a real historic event. It had heart in spades, probably the most I'd seen in years. My hope was for an era like that, albeit with trimmed back dialogue and a slightly tighter pace, and instead the one I got was more like Resolution but bigger and faster. Way way faster.
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Jan 30, 2022 19:04:19 GMT
As said, the diversification of talent was one of this era's major wins. However, as I've mentioned in other places, it's not simply for novelty reasons. There's a value in bringing other experiences, backgrounds, cultures, to the show and have it be told by people from said groups. It's why I think Punjab is special, and while it has issues, Rosa was such a breath of fresh air.
Given all the fuss over Maus and similar 'minority voice' books being banned in US schools, I think this topic is worth unpacking a bit more. Here's a great thread on it:
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