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Post by nucleusofswarm on Dec 31, 2022 0:56:15 GMT
So as we move into the New Year, and everything turns to Tennant and Gatwa, I figured why not give a closer, now that Chibnall's tenure has finished. We have the whole thing done and dusted, and can see what everything built up to.
And my final take is... I still like the lower stakes but greater emotional punches of S11 best over the epic rollercoasters of S12, Flux and the Specials, where depth became more and more eroded. The biggest loss as a result of this was, for good or ill, the Timeless Child story. Chris drew from his own experience as an adopted child and, while we can split hairs over the execution, wanted to talk about that impact on one's identity and how we define ourselves. It's a potent idea that many kids can relate to and may be comforted by, seeing one of their heroes deal with the same. Which makes it the bigger shame when the pandemic lead to almost all the meat getting cut out of that story, save for the broadest of broad strokes - some flashbacks, Tecteun and the mystery watch. In Chris, understandably, wanting to create a giant escapist fantasy as we were in the midst of dealing with a global tragedy (said himself he didn't want to let kids down), he had to sacrifice his own vision. A plot heavy thrill ride took the place of what was, even if you hate the idea, something that demanded a smaller, more character-focused piece to have any chance of sticking to landing: it would possibly have been one of the most challenging and mature stories the show had ever tried. You can still have monsters and action, but the tone would be a lot closer to Village than to Vanquishers or War of the Sontarans, if you catch my drift.
It's the kind of story that could've also played more to Jodie's strengths: yes, she could do funny or cute, but I found her performance shone when 13 was under pressure and on the ropes, trying to hold things together as they collapsed. Imagine a series of 13 having to be in a situation where the usual tricks couldn't get her out, having to grapple with the very concept of her identity, of what she stood for and what defines someone like the Doctor. What began as the most controversial casting in the show's history could've gotten integrated right into the text, the meaning, of the era itself. It could've made the end point that the show can withstand trials and controversies, that we aren't defined by arbitrary labels or stigma and it shouldn't stop the Doctor, or us the audience, from carving the paths we want in life. It could have tied everything together in a package. Whether that would've landed in the end... who can say? Some never would've forgiven the breach to canon on principle, and based on how much S12 changed from S11, who's to say how the original 10 ep S13 (and maybe S14?) would've told that story? What I will say, for my money - I always prefer a story to stick by its convictions and shoot for the moon, even if it falls short, over something that changes gears and tries to play to a broader audience late in the game.
I might well have hated that version, but at least it would've been complete and be the creator's full vision of this property. Instead, it's just a weird concept that'll just be Big Finish fodder for future boxsets.
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Post by martinw8686 on Dec 31, 2022 17:41:34 GMT
Initially I was very unimpressed with the Thirteenth Doctor, I adore the Twelfth Doctor, in particular the grumpy and darker side of the Doctor has always appealed to me, so Jodie's take was very different to the kind of Doctor I enjoy. I was very critical of the performance because I thought there were elements of the Doctor's character that weren't being shown adequately, the old age and genius of the Doctor.
Now we're post 13, I feel I've done Jodie Whittaker a disservice, I was expecting her to be like an amalgamation of my favourite Doctors, the most important thing is she was the Doctor, whether I like it or not. I should have just taken in the performance and not kept looking for signs of 4, 8, 10, 11, War and 12. At some point I'll rewatch 11 - Flux and just enjoy the ride.
In terms of Chibnall, I have to say I'm a big Moffat fan, again it's taken me a while because I didn't like the redecoration.
The one thing I didn't like was the Timeless Child reveal, not necessarily the canon change but the way it was executed. The Master destroying Gallifrey felt lazy, this great race that fought an eternal time war destroyed in the blink of an eye, I hope RTD course corrects that some of the Timelords survived, even as a post apocalyptic society. Also the Doctor regenerating several times as a child felt too much of a reveal, fair play to Chibnall shaking things up with Canon but I'm not sure it leaves places for other writers to follow on from easily.
Now the 13th Doctor has regenerated I feel I can watch her era with fresh eyes and let go the unnecessary baggage getting in my way. Before going on a rewatch binge I will say I prefer Moffat and RTD but they also made changes I didn't care for,
RTD, I much prefer Chibnall's Sontarans, I do like Strax but otherwise not sure about the whole batch being played for comedy.
I adore Derek Jacobi, it was such a shame his Master was replaced by John Simm.
John Simm's Master was too much of a mad dog, he really lacks the sly charm of the Charecter, he was way too petulant, John Simm was however a lot better in the Doctor Falls.
The awful Peter Kay paving slab episode.
I think the Slytheen are terrible, just too silly.
Moffat, the new paradigm Daleks, Amy coming on to the Doctor (Moffat regrets both of these),
James Corden (Twice!),
making the Doctor bully Danny Pink,
the moon is an egg,
the Doctor shooting the General dead
and the fake regeneration in Lie of the Land.
So I guess I'll start my rewatch, the build up to the 60th is the perfect time to fill the Who void
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Post by bonehead on Dec 31, 2022 18:01:09 GMT
RTD, I much prefer Chibnall's Sontarans, I do like Strax but otherwise not sure about the whole batch being played for comedy. Sorry to snip your post, but I wanted to respond to this. The Flux Sontarans were absolutely brilliant, I thought. There was a perverse delight in seeing a very Strax-like Sontaran (also played by Dan Starkey) getting shot at point blank range!
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Post by timleschild on Dec 31, 2022 18:36:59 GMT
Loved it all.
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Post by martinw8686 on Dec 31, 2022 19:52:14 GMT
RTD, I much prefer Chibnall's Sontarans, I do like Strax but otherwise not sure about the whole batch being played for comedy. Sorry to snip your post, but I wanted to respond to this. The Flux Sontarans were absolutely brilliant, I thought. There was a perverse delight in seeing a very Strax-like Sontaran (also played by Dan Starkey) getting shot at point blank range! I hope they use these Sontarans again, credit where it's due, for me best Sontaran episode since the Time Warrior. Chibnall's Weeping Angel episode was top notch as well.
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Post by elkawho on Jan 8, 2023 3:10:46 GMT
I am sad to say that I am looking forward to the end of 13's run. I had reservations about it from the start, but I really wanted to be wrong and for it to be great. There were some bright spots, but on the whole it is not an era I every truly enjoyed. And yes, we can say that it was the writing, and I would agree that much of the writing was terrible, but I also think that Jodie was woefully miscast. I don't believe she ever truly understood the character for her whole first season, and then had difficulty bouncing back from that. As a contrast, Jo Martin was the Doctor since the moment her memory returned. She owned every moment she was on the screen. I can't say the same about Jodie (And whatever you or I may think about The Timeless Child arc, the fact that we got Jo Martin out of it is fantastic.)
I am looking forward to RTD's return with an excitement for the show that I haven't felt in quite a while. It feels wonderful to have such anticipation for this show again. I've been so underwhelmed by it for so long.
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Post by mark687 on Jan 8, 2023 11:40:35 GMT
Gave it an Identity Crises, luckily had one of the most sincere performers in a Companion Role to sell a really uneven arc of development.
Regards
mark687
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Post by bonehead on Jan 8, 2023 11:54:03 GMT
I find myself in a similar state of mind to how I felt at the end of Peter Capaldi's run. It's not only the departure of a Doctor, but of the entire production team. It may be unpopular to say so, but I'm more fond of the last few years than I am looking forward to what is to come - but I think that's a natural thing for me. I don't like goodbyes. And unlike some eras, I found that the Chibnall era improved immensely as it went on. So much so that, had that improvement continued, I would have truly great hopes for a fourth full Whittaker/Chibnall series. Instead we have the return of RTD, Tennant, Tate and a story taken from a forty year old comic strip. I'm sure it'll all be lovely, but I'm enjoying this current non-new-Who time to rewatch the previous last few series and enjoying tham all over again.
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Post by elkawho on Jan 8, 2023 15:42:55 GMT
Gave it an Identity Crises, luckily had one of the most sincere performers in a Companion Role to sell a really uneven arc of development. Regards mark687 Hmm. Are we talking Graham's arc or Dan's? Because they are two of the three good things to come from this era. ( I was hoping John Bishop would stay on as companion because I would love to get to know Dan better, but I knew it was just wishful thinking. And he doesn't really fit with the Gatwa Doctor. Hopefully he will do some BF in the future.)
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Post by timleschild on Jan 8, 2023 15:49:16 GMT
I find myself in a similar state of mind to how I felt at the end of Peter Capaldi's run. It's not only the departure of a Doctor, but of the entire production team. It may be unpopular to say so, but I'm more fond of the last few years than I am looking forward to what is to come - but I think that's a natural thing for me. I don't like goodbyes. And unlike some eras, I found that the Chibnall era improved immensely as it went on. So much so that, had that improvement continued, I would have truly great hopes for a fourth full Whittaker/Chibnall series. Instead we have the return of RTD, Tennant, Tate and a story taken from a forty year old comic strip. I'm sure it'll all be lovely, but I'm enjoying this current non-new-Who time to rewatch the previous last few series and enjoying tham all over again. Agree 100%
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Post by mark687 on Jan 8, 2023 15:49:26 GMT
Gave it an Identity Crises, luckily had one of the most sincere performers in a Companion Role to sell a really uneven arc of development. Regards mark687 Hmm. Are we talking Graham's arc or Dan's? Because they are two of the three good things to come from this era. ( I was hoping John Bishop would stay on as companion because I would love to get to know Dan better, but I knew it was just wishful thinking. And he doesn't really fit with the Gatwa Doctor. Hopefully he will do some BF in the future.) Yaz's Whatever Mandip was given she played with 100% conviction. Regards mark687
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Post by elkawho on Jan 8, 2023 15:54:38 GMT
Hmm. Are we talking Graham's arc or Dan's? Because they are two of the three good things to come from this era. ( I was hoping John Bishop would stay on as companion because I would love to get to know Dan better, but I knew it was just wishful thinking. And he doesn't really fit with the Gatwa Doctor. Hopefully he will do some BF in the future.) Yaz's Whatever Mandip was given she played with 100% conviction. Regards mark687 Yeah, I do agree. She did play it with conviction. I'm not a huge fan of the character, but I know that many are.
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Post by bonehead on Jan 8, 2023 16:55:50 GMT
Oh I thought Yaz was lovely. Beautifully played and, despite what others may think, I thought she was nicely written. Loyal and real, she never had a petulant side that some other 'recent' companions have had. You could never imagine her threatening to kill the Doctor like Clara did, or getting jealous of earlier fellow travellers like Rose did. Perhaps some feel her lack of a darker nature made her in some way bland? The hints we had that she had esteem issues and was bullied at an early age only made me like her more - we never got hit over the head with her problems, they never got in the way of telling a story, but they were there. Lovely Yaz. I hope Mandip goes on to enjoy a successful career.
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Post by martinw8686 on Jan 8, 2023 17:28:13 GMT
I find myself in a similar state of mind to how I felt at the end of Peter Capaldi's run. It's not only the departure of a Doctor, but of the entire production team. It may be unpopular to say so, but I'm more fond of the last few years than I am looking forward to what is to come - but I think that's a natural thing for me. I don't like goodbyes. And unlike some eras, I found that the Chibnall era improved immensely as it went on. So much so that, had that improvement continued, I would have truly great hopes for a fourth full Whittaker/Chibnall series. Instead we have the return of RTD, Tennant, Tate and a story taken from a forty year old comic strip. I'm sure it'll all be lovely, but I'm enjoying this current non-new-Who time to rewatch the previous last few series and enjoying tham all over again. I really struggled to take to the Chibnall/Whittaker era because I adored Capaldi as the 12th Doctor, his era wasn't perfect but his Doctor ticked a lot of the boxes for what I love about the show, his last three episodes also for me were a hell of a way to bow out, so when it came time take in the era of 13 I was so fixed on how much this wasn't 12/Moffat that I was really unfair on the era. I kept looking at 13 and the show's writing thinking I can't see Doctor Who here, some parts of 13's era aren't my cup of tea but Jodie was the Doctor and the era is just as valid as any other, I'm looking to reappraise the whole era, as I spoiled it for myself by constantly comparing 13 to 12 and Chibnall to Moffat. I like the cycle of the show and how one era can be someone's favourite and someone's worst. Lots of people really like Season 17 but with the exception of City of Death I really don't care for its silliness. I really like the darker season 18 but others think it went too far. When I look back at many Doctor's era's there's plenty of stinkers for each Doctor, Jodie's had 3 or 4 but going back to Tom Baker you still have Underworld and Horns of Nimon. Whittaker/Chibnall's stinkers Tsunga Conundrum, The Battle of Ranskoor Av Kolos, Orphan 55, Legend of the Sea Devils Moffat stinkers The Doctor, the Widow and the Wardrobe, The Lodger, Closing Time, Journey to the Centre of the Tardis, The Caretaker. RTD stinkers Aliens of London/World War Three,Love and Monsters, Fear Her, Planet of the Dead I'm sure everyone has their own suggestions for the bad from each era but it's the nature of most TV shows that a few clunkers slip out every now and then.
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Post by bonehead on Jan 8, 2023 18:21:39 GMT
I find myself in a similar state of mind to how I felt at the end of Peter Capaldi's run. It's not only the departure of a Doctor, but of the entire production team. It may be unpopular to say so, but I'm more fond of the last few years than I am looking forward to what is to come - but I think that's a natural thing for me. I don't like goodbyes. And unlike some eras, I found that the Chibnall era improved immensely as it went on. So much so that, had that improvement continued, I would have truly great hopes for a fourth full Whittaker/Chibnall series. Instead we have the return of RTD, Tennant, Tate and a story taken from a forty year old comic strip. I'm sure it'll all be lovely, but I'm enjoying this current non-new-Who time to rewatch the previous last few series and enjoying tham all over again. I really struggled to take to the Chibnall/Whittaker era because I adored Capaldi as the 12th Doctor, his era wasn't perfect but his Doctor ticked a lot of the boxes for what I love about the show, his last three episodes also for me were a hell of a way to bow out, so when it came time take in the era of 13 I was so fixed on how much this wasn't 12/Moffat that I was really unfair on the era. I kept looking at 13 and the show's writing thinking I can't see Doctor Who here, some parts of 13's era aren't my cup of tea but Jodie was the Doctor and the era is just as valid as any other, I'm looking to reappraise the whole era, as I spoiled it for myself by constantly comparing 13 to 12 and Chibnall to Moffat. I like the cycle of the show and how one era can be someone's favourite and someone's worst. Lots of people really like Season 17 but with the exception of City of Death I really don't care for its silliness. I really like the darker season 18 but others think it went too far. When I look back at many Doctor's era's there's plenty of stinkers for each Doctor, Jodie's had 3 or 4 but going back to Tom Baker you still have Underworld and Horns of Nimon. Whittaker/Chibnall's stinkers Tsunga Conundrum, The Battle of Ranskoor Av Kolos, Orphan 55, Legend of the Sea Devils Moffat stinkers The Doctor, the Widow and the Wardrobe, The Lodger, Closing Time, Journey to the Centre of the Tardis, The Caretaker. RTD stinkers Aliens of London/World War Three,Love and Monsters, Fear Her, Planet of the Dead I'm sure everyone has their own suggestions for the bad from each era but it's the nature of most TV shows that a few clunkers slip out every now and then. I was gutted when it was announced Peter Capaldi was leaving. I thought he started well and just got better and better. In fact, I was more gutted about him going than I think any other Doctor. With the exception of Chris Eccleston 'nu-Who' Doctors had begun to get on my nerves after a few years - not so Capaldi. The fact that, in the fiction of the show, his Doctor didn't want to leave ("I can't carry on being someone else," he said - what a killer line, even though I've probably misquoted) didn't make things easier for me! That Jodie's Doctor began with a completely clean slate helped me accept her in a way I didn't think I would, so in retrospect, Series 11's low-key approach mostly worked for me, before we got stuck into familiar retruning elements the following season.
Looking back, I find myself disliking Matt Smith's era more than any others. He started so well, and then became this flapping clown! I also never took to be Amy Pond, who displayed as many dislikeable traits as Yaz displayed likeable ones, so that put a cloud over it all. Clara was a slight improvement.
But yes - every era has its fair share of good and bad. Just for the record - I really liked The Battle of Ranskoor Av Kolos and I'm not sure why! It's a flawed, thin tale, but contains the seeds of what I loved about Flux and The Power of the Doctor.
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shutupbanks
Castellan
There’s a horror movie called Alien? That’s really offensive. No wonder everyone keeps invading you.
Likes: 5,666
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Post by shutupbanks on Jan 8, 2023 22:49:46 GMT
I find myself in a similar state of mind to how I felt at the end of Peter Capaldi's run. It's not only the departure of a Doctor, but of the entire production team. It may be unpopular to say so, but I'm more fond of the last few years than I am looking forward to what is to come - but I think that's a natural thing for me. I don't like goodbyes. And unlike some eras, I found that the Chibnall era improved immensely as it went on. So much so that, had that improvement continued, I would have truly great hopes for a fourth full Whittaker/Chibnall series. Instead we have the return of RTD, Tennant, Tate and a story taken from a forty year old comic strip. I'm sure it'll all be lovely, but I'm enjoying this current non-new-Who time to rewatch the previous last few series and enjoying tham all over again. I really struggled to take to the Chibnall/Whittaker era because I adored Capaldi as the 12th Doctor, his era wasn't perfect but his Doctor ticked a lot of the boxes for what I love about the show, his last three episodes also for me were a hell of a way to bow out, so when it came time take in the era of 13 I was so fixed on how much this wasn't 12/Moffat that I was really unfair on the era. I kept looking at 13 and the show's writing thinking I can't see Doctor Who here, some parts of 13's era aren't my cup of tea but Jodie was the Doctor and the era is just as valid as any other, I'm looking to reappraise the whole era, as I spoiled it for myself by constantly comparing 13 to 12 and Chibnall to Moffat. I like the cycle of the show and how one era can be someone's favourite and someone's worst. Lots of people really like Season 17 but with the exception of City of Death I really don't care for its silliness. I really like the darker season 18 but others think it went too far. When I look back at many Doctor's era's there's plenty of stinkers for each Doctor, Jodie's had 3 or 4 but going back to Tom Baker you still have Underworld and Horns of Nimon. Whittaker/Chibnall's stinkers Tsunga Conundrum, The Battle of Ranskoor Av Kolos, Orphan 55, Legend of the Sea Devils Moffat stinkers The Doctor, the Widow and the Wardrobe, The Lodger, Closing Time, Journey to the Centre of the Tardis, The Caretaker. RTD stinkers Aliens of London/World War Three,Love and Monsters, Fear Her, Planet of the Dead I'm sure everyone has their own suggestions for the bad from each era but it's the nature of most TV shows that a few clunkers slip out every now and then. I’m another huge Capaldi fan and I also really enjoyed the Whittaker/Chibnall era of the show. I also agree with you on Seasons 17 and 18. I’ve said elsewhere that I thought Jodie’s seasons had a really even tone all the way through: I think the worst episodes of the run were Orphan 55 and Legend Of the Sea Devils and even they could have benefited from just being a few minutes longer or having one or two less characters. I don’t think it soared to the heights the way that previous eras of the show did, but there were no Forest Of The Night or Kill The Moon moments for me either. We got less of the stuff I didn’t enjoy (lonely god, bombast from the Doctor) and a much more consistent flow of episodes and stories. I still don’t like Jodie’s TARDIS, though.
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Post by martinw8686 on Jan 8, 2023 23:58:32 GMT
I'd forgotten about Kill the Moon, I really like the first half of that episode, it's creepy and I like the idea of an infestation on the moon and then the moons an egg, so stupid. Orphan 55 had all the right ingredients to be great too but the monsters don't stand up in the cold light of day and the whole again gets really silly. As I said earlier every era since 1963 has had it's blips and it's even worse when they follow on from great episode, look at The Twin Dilemma following Caves of Androzani, I really enjoyed Spyfall so Orphan 55 stood out like a sore thumb. Nice to hear from a fellow Capaldi fan and someone who's with me on series 17 and 18.
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Post by Digi on Jan 9, 2023 1:15:01 GMT
Broadly, I think I feel the same as I did at the end of the era as I did at the end of Jodie's first series: she's an excellent actor, who brought her A-game to the character and made the role wonderfully her own, but she was pretty let down by subpar writing the vast majority of the time. It didn't often descend into being outright bad in my opinion, but it rarely rose above the level of 'well, that certainly was an hour of television.' Sitting here writing this right now, I have a hard time thinking of any episode titles or plots off the top of my head.
In all, an era that was neither impressive nor awful. Just kind of there.
EDIT: Just read the post above and was reminded that I did actually quite enjoy Spyfall.
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shutupbanks
Castellan
There’s a horror movie called Alien? That’s really offensive. No wonder everyone keeps invading you.
Likes: 5,666
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Post by shutupbanks on Jan 9, 2023 2:16:38 GMT
I'd forgotten about Kill the Moon, I really like the first half of that episode, it's creepy and I like the idea of an infestation on the moon and then the moons an egg, so stupid. Orphan 55 had all the right ingredients to be great too but the monsters don't stand up in the cold light of day and the whole again gets really silly. As I said earlier every era since 1963 has had it's blips and it's even worse when they follow on from great episode, look at The Twin Dilemma following Caves of Androzani, I really enjoyed Spyfall so Orphan 55 stood out like a sore thumb. Nice to hear from a fellow Capaldi fan and someone who's with me on series 17 and 18. Caves and Dilemma are my go-to examples when people complain about “bad/uneven writing” being a hallmark of modern Who. It’s not a problem with just modern Who, I’m afraid. Or television, in general. I think the quality of overall writing across the board in drama has improved over the last few decades, so much so that when something comes across as merely “average” people tend to overreact ridiculously. For me, for example, the weakest part of Chibnall’s writing/tenure was the signposting that side characters are going to die by having them talk about their families, whereas it was a major achievement to get Douglas Adams to even finish a script without being locked up and hosed down with coffee by Graham Williams. In regards to Season 17… Look, people have taken personally the fact that Series 12 and 13 were impacted by Covid and had impositions on filming, episode numbers and availability of actors and facilities, and used the global pandemic as a way of pointing out that Chibnall is incompetent. Series 17 was held up by strikes, inflation, the lead actor being a git, the script editor being unable to complete work on time and is held up by a lot of the same people as an exercise in charm and whimsy. I think Horns Of Nimon is delightful and fun but I am embarrassed by it as a piece of television. Flux had several episodes cut from its running time, was largely filmed under plague conditions and, really, it only shows up in the last couple of episodes which feel rushed and a little heavy on the exposition. Oh, and in the crowd scenes where it’s obvious that folks are practising their social distancing. </rant>
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Post by elkawho on Jan 9, 2023 3:57:08 GMT
You folks are a whole lot kinder toward the 13th Doctor era than I am. I honestly believe that Orphan 55 is one of the worst episodes in the history of the show, and yes I know what I mean when I say that. I actually found many of the episodes difficult to watch.
Let's talk about the writing. So much exposition. I was watching Flux with Evan this week. (he wanted to see it before watching Power of the Doctor, although I told him that it wasn't really necessary). He stopped it in the middle and stated that there was so much exposition that we didn't even need the visuals. He felt like he was watching an audio story, as if they forgot that they had visuals. And such poor use of the companions, again for spouting exposition. I mean, they actually had then standing in a line and each asking the Doctor questions, on more than one occasion. And there's more to the Doctor than having her stand in front of her companions, look at the villain and state that the planet is defended. I mean, it's like if she says it enough she can go home. I never felt that the stories SHOWED her being clever, she was always telling us that she was. I could go on, but I will save you all the pain of reading it. I've already said in an earlier post how I feel about Jodie. I think she's a good actor, she was brilliant in Broadchurch, but I just don't think that this was the right role for her.
Were there episodes that I enjoyed? Sure, a few. And some characters that I thought stood out. But there wasn't a single episode that I loved, although to be fair one or two come close. But even when I go back and watch those again I'm hit over the head with how low the bar has been set for this era.
I'm very glad that some of you got a lot of enjoyment out of this era. I'm just not one of those people.
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