shutupbanks
Castellan
There’s a horror movie called Alien? That’s really offensive. No wonder everyone keeps invading you.
Likes: 5,649
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Post by shutupbanks on Jan 9, 2023 5:16:15 GMT
You folks are a whole lot kinder toward the 13th Doctor era than I am. I honestly believe that Orphan 55 is one of the worst episodes in the history of the show, and yes I know what I mean when I say that. I actually found many of the episodes difficult to watch. Let's talk about the writing. So much exposition. I was watching Flux with Evan this week. (he wanted to see it before watching Power of the Doctor, although I told him that it wasn't really necessary). He stopped it in the middle and stated that there was so much exposition that we didn't even need the visuals. He felt like he was watching an audio story, as if they forgot that they had visuals. And such poor use of the companions, again for spouting exposition. I mean, they actually had then standing in a line and each asking the Doctor questions, on more than one occasion. And there's more to the Doctor than having her stand in front of her companions, look at the villain and state that the planet is defended. I mean, it's like if she says it enough she can go home. I never felt that the stories SHOWED her being clever, she was always telling us that she was. I could go on, but I will save you all the pain of reading it. I've already said in an earlier post how I feel about Jodie. I think she's a good actor, she was brilliant in Broadchurch, but I just don't think that this was the right role for her. Were there episodes that I enjoyed? Sure, a few. And some characters that I thought stood out. But there wasn't a single episode that I loved, although to be fair one or two come close. But even when I go back and watch those again I'm hit over the head with how low the bar has been set for this era. I'm very glad that some of you got a lot of enjoyment out of this era. I'm just not one of those people. I’ve heard that complaint from a few people and I think it’s largely a fair call. However, I really don’t believe that this era is hugely more guilty of this than any other. It’s possibly worse with Jodie than with any Doctor other since, possibly, Tennant’s first season (which also suffered from all the comparisons that have been levelled at Whittaker’s first season as well: too much gurning, over-reliance on the sonic screwdriver, “guns are bad”). The companion’s role has always been to have things explained to the audience, so it really does depend how much tolerance you have for that - I don’t think there was as much that annoyed as much as Davison in Warrior’s Of The Deep find a canister of something and commenting seemingly at random that it’s a very dangerous chemical to have around reptiles. Honestly, though, these seasons haven’t turned me off the way that Seasons 22 and 24 did. They’ve been fun.
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Post by Sir Wearer of Hats on Jan 9, 2023 5:44:32 GMT
I think it was in desperate need of a script editor capable of telling the writers and producers certsin ideas were naff, certsin ideas needed more work and certsin ideas were just plain dumb. The fam worked. Ish. I might have combined the character of Yaz and Ryan, so Yaz is Graham’s adopted granddaughter, still a PC in training etc. The general idea of a slow burning mystery laying behind the Doctor and mates just exploring the cosmos, going cool places and intending to just have fun (but upon seeing injustice, acting) is a brilliant one. The slow burn mystery, obviously, being “the Timeless Child”. Jodie was brilliant. A Doctor actively trying to be “harmless” because they know how dangerous they really are is something we should see more of. Graham was a gift. Dan was great. Flux…. Ohh boy. Flux needed some major edits. Many many edits. But… it takes balls to break the universe and keep it broken. I’m desperately trying to not do a “and this is what I’d do differently…” post. I really am.
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Post by Sir Wearer of Hats on Jan 9, 2023 6:13:10 GMT
…. And NOW I’m going to write what I’d have done differently… Woman who fell… ? No major differences except the Doctor doesn’t get a full new costume yet (just the rainbow shirt, grey undershirt, blue trousers look (PROPER LENGTH trousers at that) and Yaz is Graham’s adopted granddaughter. It ends with the Doctor hoping they’ve wired the teleporter properly in order to bring the TARDIS to them, otherwise it’ll send them to where the TARDIS is…. Which leads to… Ghost Monument. There’s LOADS of little changes here. The people involved in the great race are from “The Empire of the Serpent”, there some allusions to the people we will one day find out Greyworm works for. While inside the complex, the doors will only open for the Doctor. This is acknowledged as just being “weird”. The bunker’s archives are corrupted, but they realise that “….ion” is using it to build weapons to fight some sort of “Swarm”. Once the ship is recovered, the Doctor adds the coat, symbolically saying rhe Doctor is only complete with the TARDIS. Rosa - it’s the Doctor and Yaz who have the “racism/outsider” conversation. We get an insight into her mindset, and how it differentiated her from other Time Lords. The fella doing the “kill Rosa” plotline is seen to have been put up to it by someone, he’s not a time traveller, just a local racist being paid (by whom? We’ll find out later it’s the Master trying to get the Doctor’s attention). Arachnids - the Doctor takes the vault to metabelis 3, “they’ll fit right in!” Kerblam! - The Doctor shows her darker side, the computer has to stay enslaved, because without it “the Daleks win the next time they invade”. Demons - they go back because they find a photo in Grace’s effects showing her wedding day that also shows the cuff of the Doctor’s coat.
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Post by Sir Wearer of Hats on Jan 9, 2023 7:55:59 GMT
Can you hear me? - The Doctor stays with the solutract until it dies. Battle of Lah-dee-dah - it’s a study of what makes the Doctor the Doctor by stripping away her m3mories but leaves her impulses etc. Revolution - although we don’t see their face (we do see part of their body/costume) it’s strongly implied the Scout Dalek is destroyed by the War Doctor (although it being defeated by an equally face unseen Fugitive Doctor might also work). Spyfall - first suggestion of the Flux, the Kassabi are running from something and believe Earth to be safe/last place to be destroyed. There’s no prattling about with Bond gadgets. Orphan 55 - dear god. It’s not bloody Earth! It’s the Kerblam planet. Same message, less WTF-y delivery. the evil plastic one - It’s Nestenes, driven Gaga (by the oncoming Flux). Nightmare one - it’s a deep dive into what the Doctor fears. Turns out it’s being alone (cameos for older monsters). Fugitive - Jack keeps his natural silver hair. Vila - Ashad is genuinely conflicted, and eloquent seeing cyber-conversion as a boon and not a snarling villain. Attack of the Cybermen - Doctor’s ploys are more McGyvered and more successful until abducted by the Master. It becomes a tale of the positive impact the Doctor has had etc. ends with the CyberMasters capturing the survivors. Timeless Children - Brendan etc, Doctor breaks the Matrix etc. Ashad decides the CyberMasters are a perversion of cyber-goodness and booms Gallifrey (again).
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Post by Sir Wearer of Hats on Jan 9, 2023 7:58:46 GMT
Revolution of the Daleks - VERY big focus on Doctor’s self-doubt (nightmare one established that the Doctor’s self-belief is her greatest strength and th3 idea she has a vaster history than her memories recall rocks her to the core). Doctor sacrifices HER TARDIS to defeat the Daleks. Yaz tells her of the spare one, they go off in it t9 find ou5 more about Division.
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Post by Sir Wearer of Hats on Jan 9, 2023 8:57:06 GMT
No things get hairy and a lot less Chibbers-y. Flux 1- Jolly japes with the Doctor and Yaz, doing their best Mission: Impossible looking for and stealing clues about “Division” juxtaposed with the escape of Swarm, LOTS of known places getting Fluxed (including Skaro), Dan being Dan around Liverpool, whatshisface digging his tunnel and lots of quick Angel sighting. Greyworm is saved by an Angel but not before saying it looks like the Flux is a wave, heading towards “some out of the way planet” (cut to the Doctor arriving on Earth and accosting Scooby Doo). Back and forth occurs, Scooby reveals that the Flux is lying waste to everything and seems to be a circle … closing in on Earth. Dan gets a dose of Angel pimp hand and is met by Greyworm and a monk, who in doomlaiden tones tells Dan the Man that he’s in the village at the end of the universe … the last shot is of a smug looking Angel.
Flux 2 - Yaz wakes up in the village graveyard, and is met by Dan. The Doctor wakes up half way up a tree and is rescued by Greyworm. They take them on a tour (lots of out of timers in the village) and take them to see “Thelonius, the Monk”…. Who turns out to be THAT Monk. He ran from the Flux, damaged his TARDIS and explains that the Angels have been bringing people the village since he arrived. Swarm arrives in the village, and has a taunt with the Doctor before taking Yaz and Greyworm assuming them to be her companions. As the Flux closes on Earth, UNIT races to enact last wall protocols while someone manoeuvres to become the new head of UNIT (The Serpent). The episode ends with the Doctor repairing the Monk’s TARDIS and taking the Monk and Dan to find Swarm … on the only other seemingly stable planet left….
Flux 3 - “meanwhile… on Time”, the Doctor learns that the Angels know about Division. Swarm taunts the Doctor about being helpless as she runs with the Monk and Dan. The Monks TRDIS is almost destroyed attempting to return to Earth stranding the Doctor during the Charge of the Light Brigade and the Monk and Dan in Liverpool and Yaz and Greyworm back in the Villge.
Flux 4 - Charge of the Sontaran Brigade, but it ends with the Doctor being “recalled”.
Flux 5/6 Same beats as survivors of the Flux, Dan and the Monk return to the Village but the Monk’s TARDIS finally dies.
Repeats of the Daleks - Doctor’s TARDIS stays dying, there’s so little history left it’s not a problem, the Monk declares that anything to do with the Doctor will shorten his life so he hopes out if there.
Sea Devils of the Carribean - history is Fluxed up, so who cares? Doctor has a successful sword fight, it’s a bit of a run around except … you know… dying universe. The world continues to get weirder.
The Master’s Dalek Plan: is perfect. Even the dancing. Just regenerate the Doctor in the Doctor Master costume.
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Post by bonehead on Jan 9, 2023 9:00:12 GMT
I'd forgotten about Kill the Moon, I really like the first half of that episode, it's creepy and I like the idea of an infestation on the moon and then the moons an egg, so stupid. Orphan 55 had all the right ingredients to be great too but the monsters don't stand up in the cold light of day and the whole again gets really silly. As I said earlier every era since 1963 has had it's blips and it's even worse when they follow on from great episode, look at The Twin Dilemma following Caves of Androzani, I really enjoyed Spyfall so Orphan 55 stood out like a sore thumb. Nice to hear from a fellow Capaldi fan and someone who's with me on series 17 and 18. Just a quick word about Series 17 & 18. Apart from the regulars, they are completely different in style (moreso at the time). 17 was described as 'the party' in DWM, and 18 as 'the hangover', which I thought was quite funny. I will say, though, that I think both series are the best examples of their respective producers and I loved them (I think 'Creature from the Pit' is the least successful - it should have been a three partner. Episode Four was mainly superfluous). Lots of series of Who have been impacted by problems - strikes, squabbles and the like - but 'Flux' was made during some of the very worst conditions. That it was completed at all is impressive; that it is so good is miraculous!
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Post by martinw8686 on Jan 9, 2023 11:28:06 GMT
I'd forgotten about Kill the Moon, I really like the first half of that episode, it's creepy and I like the idea of an infestation on the moon and then the moons an egg, so stupid. Orphan 55 had all the right ingredients to be great too but the monsters don't stand up in the cold light of day and the whole again gets really silly. As I said earlier every era since 1963 has had it's blips and it's even worse when they follow on from great episode, look at The Twin Dilemma following Caves of Androzani, I really enjoyed Spyfall so Orphan 55 stood out like a sore thumb. Nice to hear from a fellow Capaldi fan and someone who's with me on series 17 and 18. Caves and Dilemma are my go-to examples when people complain about “bad/uneven writing” being a hallmark of modern Who. It’s not a problem with just modern Who, I’m afraid. Or television, in general. I think the quality of overall writing across the board in drama has improved over the last few decades, so much so that when something comes across as merely “average” people tend to overreact ridiculously. For me, for example, the weakest part of Chibnall’s writing/tenure was the signposting that side characters are going to die by having them talk about their families, whereas it was a major achievement to get Douglas Adams to even finish a script without being locked up and hosed down with coffee by Graham Williams. In regards to Season 17… Look, people have taken personally the fact that Series 12 and 13 were impacted by Covid and had impositions on filming, episode numbers and availability of actors and facilities, and used the global pandemic as a way of pointing out that Chibnall is incompetent. Series 17 was held up by strikes, inflation, the lead actor being a git, the script editor being unable to complete work on time and is held up by a lot of the same people as an exercise in charm and whimsy. I think Horns Of Nimon is delightful and fun but I am embarrassed by it as a piece of television. Flux had several episodes cut from its running time, was largely filmed under plague conditions and, really, it only shows up in the last couple of episodes which feel rushed and a little heavy on the exposition. Oh, and in the crowd scenes where it’s obvious that folks are practising their social distancing. </rant> Great points on the similar issues shared with Flux and season 17. It's nice that season 17 has its fans, for me it's just too silly. I'm 50/50 on the Chibnall era, some good some bad, for me more so than the previous era's. I must say that there's a lot to praise visually and some episodes I really enjoyed, Rosa The Witchfinders It takes you Away (9/10 until the frog bit) Spyfall 1/2 Fugitive of the Judoon The haunting of villa diodati War of the Sontarans Village of the Angels Eve of the Daleks Power of the Doctor
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Post by timleschild on Jan 10, 2023 19:14:19 GMT
Don't forget CyberBrig in the list of crimes from a previous era.
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Post by martinw8686 on Jan 10, 2023 20:05:12 GMT
Don't forget CyberBrig in the list of crimes from a previous era. CyberBrig never bothered me that much, it was brief and I believe though clumsy had good intentions. It showcased the Brigs honour and devotion to Kate, that he would fight for Earth until the bitter end. It's tragic that Nicolas Courtney never got a chance to be on the revived show, I know the whole CyberBrig thing is ghoulish but there's sweetness to the salute he shares with the 12th Doctor.
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Post by ollychops on Jan 10, 2023 20:43:56 GMT
Don't forget CyberBrig in the list of crimes from a previous era. CyberBrig never bothered me that much, it was brief and I believe though clumsy had good intentions. It showcased the Brigs honour and devotion to Kate, that he would fight for Earth until the bitter end. It's tragic that Nicolas Courtney never got a chance to be on the revived show, I know the whole CyberBrig thing is ghoulish but there's sweetness to the salute he shares with the 12th Doctor. Yeah, I get why people take issue with it and why it's distasteful but personally I see it as a testament to the Brigadier's character that even Cyber conversion doesn't change him and he's still protecting Kate/the Earth.
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Post by timleschild on Jan 10, 2023 20:59:26 GMT
Don't forget CyberBrig in the list of crimes from a previous era. CyberBrig never bothered me that much, it was brief and I believe though clumsy had good intentions. It showcased the Brigs honour and devotion to Kate, that he would fight for Earth until the bitter end. It's tragic that Nicolas Courtney never got a chance to be on the revived show, I know the whole CyberBrig thing is ghoulish but there's sweetness to the salute he shares with the 12th Doctor. A rotting corpse in a metal suit saluting is sweet?
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Post by masterdoctor on Jan 10, 2023 21:08:41 GMT
CyberBrig never bothered me that much, it was brief and I believe though clumsy had good intentions. It showcased the Brigs honour and devotion to Kate, that he would fight for Earth until the bitter end. It's tragic that Nicolas Courtney never got a chance to be on the revived show, I know the whole CyberBrig thing is ghoulish but there's sweetness to the salute he shares with the 12th Doctor. A rotting corpse in a metal suit saluting is sweet? And yet, all of the cyberman in that story were rotting corpses in a metal suit. The Brigadier was the only one to break through the conditioning and came to save his daughter and the day.
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Post by Digi on Jan 10, 2023 21:35:17 GMT
I did find it a bit of a ghoulish thing to do with a long-beloved character, honestly. I think it's a bit silly to call it a "crime," but when watching that episode I certainly did have a 'jesus, is nothing sacred?' moment. Can't say it continues to put me out years after the fact though.
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Post by masterdoctor on Jan 10, 2023 22:22:26 GMT
I did find it a bit of a ghoulish thing to do with a long-beloved character, honestly. I think it's a bit silly to call it a "crime," but when watching that episode I certainly did have a 'jesus, is nothing sacred?' moment. Can't say it continues to put me out years after the fact though. And that’s fair enough, I don’t mind it, but I do understand that people didn’t.
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Post by martinw8686 on Jan 10, 2023 22:25:13 GMT
I did find it a bit of a ghoulish thing to do with a long-beloved character, honestly. I think it's a bit silly to call it a "crime," but when watching that episode I certainly did have a 'jesus, is nothing sacred?' moment. Can't say it continues to put me out years after the fact though. It was certainly.......different. I honestly think Moffat thought it would be a sweet thing to do with the Brig and Kate. I love Moffat but he does have some pretty out there idea's when it comes to happy endings, for example solving the Bill cyber conversion by turning her into a puddle.
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Post by timleschild on Jan 11, 2023 17:17:35 GMT
A rotting corpse in a metal suit saluting is sweet? And yet, all of the cyberman in that story were rotting corpses in a metal suit. The Brigadier was the only one to break through the conditioning and came to save his daughter and the day. I know.
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Post by iainmclaughlin on Jan 11, 2023 21:38:13 GMT
Doctor Who changes tone and flavour regularly. That means there's a good chance that one of these eras isn't going to tickle a particular viewer. It just won't be their cup of tea. Chibnall's era was that era for me - I find very little in it to be enjoyable. I really didn't enjoy the writing, didn't enjoy the direction, there were too many companions (of whom only Brian was properly rounded and developed) and other than Bradley Walsh I think the casting was wrong, including the Doctor. I was optimistic when I saw Jodie Whittaker had been cast and I liked that little bit in the forest when she was announced but I did not enjoy her characterisation. It was certainly time for a woman to be cast but in my opinion - and it's just my opinion - they cast the wrong actress. I didn't even like the theme arrangement or the title sequence. There were very few decisions made for this era that I thought were good. My main feeling during the centenary episode was one of relief that the show was heading back into safe hands.
Having said all of that...
I know a lot of people completely disagree with me and I am totally fine with that. It's all a matter of our tastes, of what we like. I liked new locations and new perspectives but I didn't like the execution of those stories. In particular I don't like being preached at. As a writer I am all in favour of using art to make a social point, but I don't like and don't rate the way it was done in these series. If others like it, cool. I am happy for them. It's great to have different opinions.
I doubt if I'll watch any of this era again. If I do, it will be moments rather than full episodes. I watch Doctor Who regularly, from the old black and whites through to Capaldi but these three seasons are just not for me. My great nieces, on the other hand, enjoyed them, so... what do I know?
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