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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2022 10:46:45 GMT
Does this annoy anyone else? It certainly does that to me.
I first discovered this from a Fandom user when I used to be a member of the forum on there. I am quoting the first line from that user as I share the same opinion for that part. The rest is all me.
"It annoys me when the character's accusing the Doctor aren't villains, but intent on obstructing him."
I can't believe that it's still being used, even at Big Finish. If I was in charge, I would ban any writer from using the trope. Sometimes even the Doctor and his companions are aware of how annoying it is. It usually doesn't ruin stories that have them in, but it is still extremely irritating considering that I keep stumbling across it.
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Post by bonehead on Jan 15, 2022 10:55:10 GMT
With so many Doctor Who stories out there, some story telling elements are bound to crop up more than once, and I personally have no problem with this. I imagine if a murder had been committed, and I discovered a couple of strangers by the body, I'd be highly suspicious too.
It's a little like in horror fiction, when a character does something illogical to move the story on. It makes me roll my eyes a little sometimes, but I would prefer that than some long-winded scenes just to get the character from A to B.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2022 10:58:41 GMT
With so many Doctor Who stories out there, some story telling elements are bound to crop up more than once, and I personally have no problem with this. I imagine if a murder had been committed, and I discovered a couple of strangers by the body, I'd be highly suspicious too. It's a little like in horror fiction, when a character does something illogical to move the story on. It makes me roll my eyes a little sometimes, but I would prefer that than some long-winded scenes just to get the character from A to B. I still hate the trope. I really think there are better ways of progressing the narrative. |
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Jan 15, 2022 12:00:24 GMT
I think the complaint's a bit unclear: why should the only obstacles be villains? Misunderstandings, frame ups, confusion and distrust are all part and parcel of storytelling. Confilict is what makes stories go round. Even then, it's not that illogical: if a character doesn't know or hasn't met the Doctor before, and something bad happens, it's not that ridiculous to at least be suspicious. If everyone's just believed the Doctor from the get-go, the story'd be over in 5 minutes.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2022 13:30:34 GMT
I think the complaint's a bit unclear: why should the only obstacles be villains? Misunderstandings, frame ups, confusion and distrust are all part and parcel of storytelling. Confilict is what makes stories go round. Even then, it's not that illogical: if a character doesn't know or hasn't met the Doctor before, and something bad happens, it's not that ridiculous to at least be suspicious. If everyone's just believed the Doctor from the get-go, the story'd be over in 5 minutes. It is still very irritating when the Doctor and his companions are accused of something without proof before the guest cast apologise later on. Ii really sets up the guest characters as unlikable and rational especially when they are aggressive e.g. Lieutenant Scott from Earthshock. I probably wouldn't be bothered so much if wasn't a recurring trope. I feel as though the only part of Doctor Who it has hasn't touched from what I've seen is the new series. Or am I wrong? |
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Post by sherlock on Jan 15, 2022 13:34:52 GMT
I think the complaint's a bit unclear: why should the only obstacles be villains? Misunderstandings, frame ups, confusion and distrust are all part and parcel of storytelling. Confilict is what makes stories go round. Even then, it's not that illogical: if a character doesn't know or hasn't met the Doctor before, and something bad happens, it's not that ridiculous to at least be suspicious. If everyone's just believed the Doctor from the get-go, the story'd be over in 5 minutes. It is still very irritating when the Doctor and his companions are accused of something without proof before the guest cast apologise later on. Ii really sets up the guest characters as unlikable and rational especially when they are aggressive e.g. Lieutenant Scott from Earthshock. I probably wouldn't be bothered so much if wasn't a recurring trope. I feel as though the only part of Doctor Who it has hasn't touched from what I've seen is the new series. Or am I wrong? The new series kinda bypassed it with the psychic paper, giving the Doctor implicit authority just to skip the trope cos they only have 45 minutes. Midnight however is effectively this trope given an entire episode. |
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Post by ollychops on Jan 15, 2022 13:37:27 GMT
I think it’s a case-by-case basis for me. Sometimes it’s executed well, other times it’s not done well and doesn’t feel natural. Midnight does make excellent use of this trope though.
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Post by mark687 on Jan 15, 2022 13:53:07 GMT
It is still very irritating when the Doctor and his companions are accused of something without proof before the guest cast apologise later on. Ii really sets up the guest characters as unlikable and rational especially when they are aggressive e.g. Lieutenant Scott from Earthshock. I probably wouldn't be bothered so much if wasn't a recurring trope. I feel as though the only part of Doctor Who it has hasn't touched from what I've seen is the new series. Or am I wrong? The new series kinda bypassed it with the psychic paper, giving the Doctor implicit authority just to skip the trope cos they only have 45 minutes. Midnight however is effectively this trope given an entire episode. That raises the other side, Bluffing/ Physic Paper isn't always used or works, which means its down to the Writer deciding the miss-trust/false accusation troupe is necessary to make the story work. Regards mark687 |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2022 13:59:57 GMT
The only time I believe it was done right was Black Orchid.
1: it wasn’t right at the start.
2: “in this case, it’s forced by Lady Cranleigh, arguably the villain of the piece for her treatment of George and the way she covers up murder.”*
*quoted from the Fandom user.
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Jan 15, 2022 14:04:29 GMT
I think the complaint's a bit unclear: why should the only obstacles be villains? Misunderstandings, frame ups, confusion and distrust are all part and parcel of storytelling. Confilict is what makes stories go round. Even then, it's not that illogical: if a character doesn't know or hasn't met the Doctor before, and something bad happens, it's not that ridiculous to at least be suspicious. If everyone's just believed the Doctor from the get-go, the story'd be over in 5 minutes. It is still very irritating when the Doctor and his companions are accused of something without proof before the guest cast apologise later on. Ii really sets up the guest characters as unlikable and rational especially when they are aggressive e.g. Lieutenant Scott from Earthshock. I probably wouldn't be bothered so much if wasn't a recurring trope. I feel as though the only part of Doctor Who it has hasn't touched from what I've seen is the new series. Or am I wrong? Well what would your alternatives be? |
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Post by constonks on Jan 15, 2022 23:59:00 GMT
The only time I believe it was done right was Black Orchid. 1: it wasn’t right at the start. 2: “in this case, it’s forced by Lady Cranleigh, arguably the villain of the piece for her treatment of George and the way she covers up murder.”* *quoted from the Fandom user. I think that one works because it's a surprise and it moves the story forward. You expect Lady Cran to support the Doctor's story, then she doesn't. I agree it can be a little irritating, like all "misunderstanding" plots. I understand why it's done of course - realistically, every time the Doctor shows up and people start dying, they should probably be held under guard for 24 hours! But I do prefer when it's waved away quickly. The one that bothers me more is when this turns into "shoot them immediately because of my unproven suspicion!" Often feels a little cheap (and makes whatever society they're visiting look barbaric). |
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Post by mrperson on Jan 17, 2022 0:02:31 GMT
Does this annoy anyone else? It certainly does that to me.
I first discovered this from a Fandom user when I used to be a member of the forum on there. I am quoting the first line from that user as I share the same opinion for that part. The rest is all me.
"It annoys me when the character's accusing the Doctor aren't villains, but intent on obstructing him."
I can't believe that it's still being used, even as Big Finish. If I was in charge, I would ban any writer from using the trope. Sometimes even the Doctor and his companions are aware of how annoying it is. It usually doesn't ruin stories that have them in, but it is still extremely irritating considering that I keep stumbling across it. Now that I've read some responses (I misread this utterly at first): I somewhat agree.
That said, either we pretend everyone ever has met the Doctor or we ask how we would respond. Right? As someone said, you're the cop on a murder scene. You're about to call for backup, then this know-it-all and his friend(s) show up, acting like this is just something that happens (which it doesn't). You'd be incredulous, right? I would. I certainly wouldn't say "oh, well, come right in." I've had fake ID in my face before.* I'd doubt them from the get-go. And just like in the episodes, it'd be until the point at which I can conclude there is an awful lot more to know about reality and at least one of them knows some of it pretty damned well.
Though for this opinion, bear in mind that I'm more of a stickler about so-called "plot holes". Or at least, they bother me more. They distract me. They set my mind on various tracks as I'm trying to listen or watch. So if characters just sorta started saying "oh, well, you make no sense to me but I'll just trust you with the career-ender and/or national catastrophe that would result if you turned out to be charlatans." I'd personally probably be more of an infuriating character of this type. Unless I have a long, careful solo-encounter with something that appears to be a ghost, for example, I'm not deviating in belief from what established physics/mathematics proves. Open mind, but the bar is kinda high. Hence, I laugh at "energy crystals" and Goop eggs.
Perhaps getting to the actual point: but as far as listening goes, I don't mind if they don't make more than a decent nod to it sometimes. Different people are different. Some are extremely gullible.
(I had a relative forward an obvious scam email; y'know, the "just transfer money to this account so I can give you FIVE MILLION DOLLARS!" They asked if they should do it and I just about filled my pants. "You're asking me what?!").
So I definitely wouldn't want every episode to be a miserable uphill slog for trust. If it was just shrugged off, I'd have a lot harder time getting into the episode. It has to make sense on basic rules of reality, or have a believable workaround. Even stuff like "reverse the polarity of the neutron flow" to the companion, which actually says to the audience "it'd be sci-fi BS; don't worry about it". That's ok within limits. But to completely contradict human character without more - psychic paper doesn't do it all around - would throw me off.
*Door to door scammer. Dude said he was from National Grid (energy, but maybe not even our local) and asked for my last bill so they could send me the refund, which was just about the dumbest thing I've ever heard. They have the records and they wouldn't need to ask, but if they wanted to ask something it wouldn't be by sending a dude with a clipboard around.
Apparently people hand them over. They do it over the phone, too. The idea is to get people to sign off on authorizations for a "better deal" - all lies - and these authorizations can be used to tell your main supplier to make the scammers the supplier. Inevitably it's far more expensive.
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Post by mrperson on Jan 17, 2022 0:11:37 GMT
The one that bothers me more is when this turns into "shoot them immediately because of my unproven suspicion!" Often feels a little cheap (and makes whatever society they're visiting look barbaric).
True. It depends on the circumstances.
Many of those are war. And...I mean... front line soldiers have been broken by the knowledge that they shot their buddy because their buddy went to pee in the middle of the night, on 20h sleep that week, and forgot or missppoke the password. There are these iron rules that soldiers have to choose to break, and a few at once.
Basically I agree. It can fit, but plenty of times it seems more like the speaker is a sociopath. I hope there aren't that many out there....
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2022 4:37:21 GMT
For me, the last straw was Secrets of Telos. It’s use in part 1 was an atrocious part of what was otherwise a really good story.
What happens in the trope is definitely what angers me though I do wish it wasn’t recurring.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2022 7:17:02 GMT
Another story that got the trope right was Meglos. The Doctor was framed by someone that was literally using his likeness.
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Post by Sir Wearer of Hats on Jan 23, 2022 22:17:11 GMT
It sort of makes sense, after all the Doctor is more often than not the one bringing the “impossible” into what was (in the mind of the character in questions) something understandable.
All the local dogs have gone missing? Obviously dognappers, and that weirdo in the rainbow coat who says it’s Flargons from the planet Melnik is not just crazy he’s possible one of the dognappers! I mean, no one knows who they are, do they?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2022 5:47:07 GMT
It sort of makes sense, after all the Doctor is more often than not the one bringing the “impossible” into what was (in the mind of the character in questions) something understandable. All the local dogs have gone missing? Obviously dognappers, and that weirdo in the rainbow coat who says it’s Flargons from the planet Melnik is not just crazy he’s possible one of the dognappers! I mean, no one knows who they are, do they? Surely the Doctor would know better than to outright say that, unless the locals saw it for themselves. |
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Post by Sir Wearer of Hats on Jan 24, 2022 5:53:15 GMT
It sort of makes sense, after all the Doctor is more often than not the one bringing the “impossible” into what was (in the mind of the character in questions) something understandable. All the local dogs have gone missing? Obviously dognappers, and that weirdo in the rainbow coat who says it’s Flargons from the planet Melnik is not just crazy he’s possible one of the dognappers! I mean, no one knows who they are, do they? Surely the Doctor would know better than to outright say that, unless the locals saw it for themselves. One the one hand, we have Horror of Fang Rock where he explains the situation but carefully avoids mentioning the words “alien” or “from another planet” until it’s impossible not to (and basically only does so with Leela), conversely we have Daemons where he has a shouting match about aliens with the local witch or Delta and the Bananamen where he, instead of pulling “I work for the government, you need to leave” or some such lies that he normally has no qualms about tells the holiday camp fella “except for the ginger we’re all aliens, and other aliens are about to attack”. |
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2022 18:56:38 GMT
I still hate this trope. Not just because it’s mean-spirited or overused, but because it’s boring and lazy. I find it to be lazy because it’s pretty much the same thing over and over again. The Doctor and Co. arrive, something bad happens, they are accused of doing it and locked away, something happens that gets the guest cast to change their minds about the Doctor, they let him join forces with them, the story progresses, rinse and repeat.
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izp1
Big Finish Creative Team
Not actually a member of a Big Finish Creative Team but I've worked for them off and on since 2002.
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Post by izp1 on May 1, 2022 19:48:53 GMT
Thing is, some of my favourite Who stories feature this moment quite organically because they're stories where the Doctor's presence alone is a catalyst for accelerated change in an already unstable situation. The Doctor arriving creating paranoia on both sides in Caves of Androzani for example. It arises fairly naturally from the Doctor often not being part of the story world being visited.
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