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Post by bonehead on Jan 24, 2022 19:11:40 GMT
GIMMICKRY IS THE KEY WORD!(an array or profusion of gimmicks) HERE IS JUST ONE SUCH GIMMICK! X MEETS Y FOR THE VERY 1ST TIME !MY CUP RUNNETH OVER WIH GREAT EXCITEMENT,I TREMBLE IN ANTICIPATION,I PRE-ORDER ONLY TO FIND OUT LATER,THAT X DOES IN-FACT MEET Y BUT ONLY IN ONE STORY FROM A FOUR STORY BOXSET ANNOYING TO SAY THE LEAST! Won't stop me pre-ordering stuff but i can see where people are coming from. There certainly seems to be an increasing element of that creeping in. I also get the point the every boxset needs a 'handle' to get maximum sales. How many 'handles' can you do before we're down to 'Recast Nyder meets the Taran Wood Beast (featuring Nick Briggs as The Daleks)'? Just because you *can* team up character A with character B doesn't mean you *should*. It's a difficult balance. Without sounding overtly negative, should Big Finish's new catch-phrase be: 'Big Finish - where simply telling stories is no longer enough?'
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2022 19:35:42 GMT
GIMMICKRY IS THE KEY WORD!(an array or profusion of gimmicks) HERE IS JUST ONE SUCH GIMMICK! X MEETS Y FOR THE VERY 1ST TIME !MY CUP RUNNETH OVER WIH GREAT EXCITEMENT,I TREMBLE IN ANTICIPATION,I PRE-ORDER ONLY TO FIND OUT LATER,THAT X DOES IN-FACT MEET Y BUT ONLY IN ONE STORY FROM A FOUR STORY BOXSET ANNOYING TO SAY THE LEAST! Won't stop me pre-ordering stuff but i can see where people are coming from. There certainly seems to be an increasing element of that creeping in. I also get the point the every boxset needs a 'handle' to get maximum sales. How many 'handles' can you do before we're down to 'Recast Nyder meets the Taran Wood Beast (featuring Nick Briggs as The Daleks)'? Just because you *can* team up character A with character B doesn't mean you *should*. It's a difficult balance. Without sounding overtly negative, should Big Finish's new catch-phrase be: 'Big Finish - where simply telling stories is no longer enough?' I was saying this would be the end result of box sets becoming the standard for BF when it really started occurin too much in Doom Coalition - when River became practically a McGann companion. When we had the MR, you would sub years in advance not knowing what Doctors you would have much less crossovers, villains, events etc. The subscription model allowed for just solid stories. Yet how does BF promote boxsets with no "catch". I know gimmick is a word people dislike but I do think its somewhat apt. When your last box had, say, River and Missy meeting a past Doctor or another box has UNIT with Jacobi and Benny, say....how do BF lower the expectations without losing fan interest. "Its just a really solid Who story worked for the MR when you had paid up 2 years back but when the immediate premise is when you are asked to pay for the item, its inevitable that fans, especially more casual ones, will want "sexier" content. "No frills, just a nice solid base under siege with Davison and Nyssa" would work in the MR...does it sell as a boxset? It is not up for debate that there are more crossover and "event" stories than a few years back. Does this excite the writers or restrict them? Are they told "You need to use character X and Y, and tease character Z"? I dont know but it is hard to see how to take the heat off the hob now. This happened with comics - Batman was added to any failing DC book in the 90s and 2000s. Marvel and DC rebooted more in 10 years than the 50 previous. Ultimately if the stories are OK, I will be there but you cannot keep the "hooks" up forever or you burn out special characters and events and then when an event, say the 60th DOES come up...you have made dozens of mini-events so its not as unique. BF used to know this SO well, its why they were so reticent to do multi-Doc stories - because the more you do, the less special they are. All these crossovers are what BF detractors assumed the stories were always like (fanjodrell, to use that old cliche) and that was unfair. Yet it is increasingly accurate, with the feel of toys to be played with. I mean, I like Stranded 3 but PC Andy with McGann? Quarks with The Eleven and UNIT? Is there a line any more?
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lidar2
Castellan
You know, now that you mention it, I actually do rather like Attack of the Cybermen ...
Likes: 5,811
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Post by lidar2 on Jan 25, 2022 16:24:42 GMT
There certainly seems to be an increasing element of that creeping in. I also get the point the every boxset needs a 'handle' to get maximum sales. How many 'handles' can you do before we're down to 'Recast Nyder meets the Taran Wood Beast (featuring Nick Briggs as The Daleks)'? Just because you *can* team up character A with character B doesn't mean you *should*. It's a difficult balance. Without sounding overtly negative, should Big Finish's new catch-phrase be: 'Big Finish - where simply telling stories is no longer enough?' I was saying this would be the end result of box sets becoming the standard for BF when it really started occurin too much in Doom Coalition - when River became practically a McGann companion. When we had the MR, you would sub years in advance not knowing what Doctors you would have much less crossovers, villains, events etc. The subscription model allowed for just solid stories. Yet how does BF promote boxsets with no "catch". I know gimmick is a word people dislike but I do think its somewhat apt. When your last box had, say, River and Missy meeting a past Doctor or another box has UNIT with Jacobi and Benny, say....how do BF lower the expectations without losing fan interest. "Its just a really solid Who story worked for the MR when you had paid up 2 years back but when the immediate premise is when you are asked to pay for the item, its inevitable that fans, especially more casual ones, will want "sexier" content. "No frills, just a nice solid base under siege with Davison and Nyssa" would work in the MR...does it sell as a boxset? It is not up for debate that there are more crossover and "event" stories than a few years back. Does this excite the writers or restrict them? Are they told "You need to use character X and Y, and tease character Z"? I dont know but it is hard to see how to take the heat off the hob now. This happened with comics - Batman was added to any failing DC book in the 90s and 2000s. Marvel and DC rebooted more in 10 years than the 50 previous. Ultimately if the stories are OK, I will be there but you cannot keep the "hooks" up forever or you burn out special characters and events and then when an event, say the 60th DOES come up...you have made dozens of mini-events so its not as unique. BF used to know this SO well, its why they were so reticent to do multi-Doc stories - because the more you do, the less special they are. All these crossovers are what BF detractors assumed the stories were always like (fanjodrell, to use that old cliche) and that was unfair. Yet it is increasingly accurate, with the feel of toys to be played with. I mean, I like Stranded 3 but PC Andy with McGann? Quarks with The Eleven and UNIT? Is there a line any more? 100% agree It would be interesting to hear Nick discuss this on the podcast and give his take - a proper reasoned response, not a glib 2 line response.
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shutupbanks
Castellan
There’s a horror movie called Alien? That’s really offensive. No wonder everyone keeps invading you.
Likes: 5,661
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Post by shutupbanks on Jan 25, 2022 22:50:04 GMT
Following this thread with interest because it was a question I asked a few years ago… notthebigfinishforum.freeforums.net/thread/3387/peak-who… and was assured that there was still a lot of life left in it. My own view is that the writing and production is excellent, but the stories themselves just feel like pandering to a niche group of fans. (This is not an “I-told-you-so” moment, btw, just me glad to have some other people on the same page as me)
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Post by shallacatop on Jan 26, 2022 13:15:51 GMT
This has been a fascinating discussion, alongside the posts in the Eighth Doctor & Charley set thread, which inspired this one.
I find myself agreeing with a lot of the points made here. I don't think self-references and crossovers are the issue as such, but rather how uninspiring a lot of recent releases have been. And a lot of that does in turn feed into the fact they exist purely to pair X with Y, or do a sequel to Z. We can go on forever debating the pros and cons of them all, and whether they work or not. In the past year we've had Dalek Universe, where I think the promotion actually does a disservice to the content within those sets, and it absolutely succeeds in telling a cracking story, despite it looking like a lot of returning elements thrown together. Then on the flip side we've just had Forty, which features a dull sequel to The Tomb of the Cybermen and brings back the Ice Warriors because, well, the writer was told to.
And those latter points I had about Forty do tend to summarise what I'm feeling with a lot of releases recently. They're not awful, but they're not gripping either. Most seem to meander, not really sure what to do except put two elements together, some are dull and all of them are rather forgettable. The majority of them seem to be written by the same people and they typically contain the same tropes that makes everything all the more repetitive. Stranded 3 has got to be the epitome of this. The Doctor is quippy, Liv and Tania fall out over silly things and then reconcile at the end and then we get the obligatory unconventional story. It's just going through the motions over and over favouring that over its original concept.
I was talking about this thread with another member earlier this week and they mentioned the upcoming Seventh Doctor story set on Ribos; it's a massive planet but you can guarantee it'll have returning characters and it'll be set in the catacombs! You can just hear David Richardson on the behind the scenes now; "Well I was rewatching The Ribos Operation recently and I thought it would be irresistible to have a return visit, this time for Sylvester McCoy's Doctor." Er, well, why was it irresistible, David? It can't excite the writers otherwise they'd produce something that isn't going through the motions, unsure of what to do beyond the initial brief of pairing X with Y.
I have been debating back and forth about going to download only, as CDs do very little for me, compared to books, Blu-rays, etc. And I look at the shelves of Big Finish sets and wonder how many of them I fondly remember, let alone consider relistening to.
Big Finish do have a harder task for me compared to other mediums, I will give them that. With television Doctor Who, it's visual and I will always remember something from it as a result, there's a lot more to "cling" on to. The same for books, we spend longer with them and get tidbits that audio may not offer. However, currently when I'm listening I don't often feel as though there's much effort being put in beside filling the brief and meandering around that.
Still, there's still a lot to love about Big Finish and there's standout stuff. In the past year I've loved the two War Doctor Begins sets, Respond to All Calls and the Eleventh Doctor Chronicles was a surprise highlight. None of them are bogged down with crossovers or self-references. It shows Big Finish can still do it, and do it exceptionally well. I don't believe that it's sales that are driving all of these decisions for the most part, it's just that many of the decisions are uninspiring. Throwing Quarks into UNIT will hardly shift an extra thousand downloads, for example.
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Post by mark687 on Jan 26, 2022 13:29:23 GMT
This has been a fascinating discussion, alongside the posts in the Eighth Doctor & Charley set thread, which inspired this one. I find myself agreeing with a lot of the points made here. I don't think self-references and crossovers are the issue as such, but rather how uninspiring a lot of recent releases have been. And a lot of that does in turn feed into the fact they exist purely to pair X with Y, or do a sequel to Z. We can go on forever debating the pros and cons of them all, and whether they work or not. In the past year we've had Dalek Universe, where I think the promotion actually does a disservice to the content within those sets, and it absolutely succeeds in telling a cracking story, despite it looking like a lot of returning elements thrown together. Then on the flip side we've just had Forty, which features a dull sequel to The Tomb of the Cybermen and brings back the Ice Warriors because, well, the writer was told to. And those latter points I had about Forty do tend to summarise what I'm feeling with a lot of releases recently. They're not awful, but they're not gripping either. Most seem to meander, not really sure what to do except put two elements together, some are dull and all of them are rather forgettable. The majority of them seem to be written by the same people and they typically contain the same tropes that makes everything all the more repetitive. Stranded 3 has got to be the epitome of this. The Doctor is quippy, Liv and Tania fall out over silly things and then reconcile at the end and then we get the obligatory unconventional story. It's just going through the motions over and over favouring that over its original concept. I was talking about this thread with another member earlier this week and they mentioned the upcoming Seventh Doctor story set on Ribos; it's a massive planet but you can guarantee it'll have returning characters and it'll be set in the catacombs! You can just hear David Richardson on the behind the scenes now; "Well I was rewatching The Ribos Operation recently and I thought it would be irresistible to have a return visit, this time for Sylvester McCoy's Doctor." Er, well, why was it irresistible, David? It can't excite the writers otherwise they'd produce something that isn't going through the motions, unsure of what to do beyond the initial brief of pairing X with Y. I have been debating back and forth about going to download only, as CDs do very little for me, compared to books, Blu-rays, etc. And I look at the shelves of Big Finish sets and wonder how many of them I fondly remember, let alone consider relistening to. Big Finish do have a harder task for me compared to other mediums, I will give them that. With television Doctor Who, it's visual and I will always remember something from it as a result, there's a lot more to "cling" on to. The same for books, we spend longer with them and get tidbits that audio may not offer. However, currently when I'm listening I don't often feel as though there's much effort being put in beside filling the brief and meandering around that. Still, there's still a lot to love about Big Finish and there's standout stuff. In the past year I've loved the two War Doctor Begins sets, Respond to All Calls and the Eleventh Doctor Chronicles was a surprise highlight. None of them are bogged down with crossovers or self-references. It shows Big Finish can still do it, and do it exceptionally well. I don't believe that it's sales that are driving all of these decisions for the most part, it's just that many of the decisions are uninspiring. Throwing Quarks into UNIT will hardly shift an extra thousand downloads, for example. Very well reasoned and I thoroughly agree, sums up the current situation perfectly. Regards mark687
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Post by bonehead on Jan 26, 2022 15:12:39 GMT
I was saying this would be the end result of box sets becoming the standard for BF when it really started occurin too much in Doom Coalition - when River became practically a McGann companion. When we had the MR, you would sub years in advance not knowing what Doctors you would have much less crossovers, villains, events etc. The subscription model allowed for just solid stories. Yet how does BF promote boxsets with no "catch". I know gimmick is a word people dislike but I do think its somewhat apt. When your last box had, say, River and Missy meeting a past Doctor or another box has UNIT with Jacobi and Benny, say....how do BF lower the expectations without losing fan interest. "Its just a really solid Who story worked for the MR when you had paid up 2 years back but when the immediate premise is when you are asked to pay for the item, its inevitable that fans, especially more casual ones, will want "sexier" content. "No frills, just a nice solid base under siege with Davison and Nyssa" would work in the MR...does it sell as a boxset? It is not up for debate that there are more crossover and "event" stories than a few years back. Does this excite the writers or restrict them? Are they told "You need to use character X and Y, and tease character Z"? I dont know but it is hard to see how to take the heat off the hob now. This happened with comics - Batman was added to any failing DC book in the 90s and 2000s. Marvel and DC rebooted more in 10 years than the 50 previous. Ultimately if the stories are OK, I will be there but you cannot keep the "hooks" up forever or you burn out special characters and events and then when an event, say the 60th DOES come up...you have made dozens of mini-events so its not as unique. BF used to know this SO well, its why they were so reticent to do multi-Doc stories - because the more you do, the less special they are. All these crossovers are what BF detractors assumed the stories were always like (fanjodrell, to use that old cliche) and that was unfair. Yet it is increasingly accurate, with the feel of toys to be played with. I mean, I like Stranded 3 but PC Andy with McGann? Quarks with The Eleven and UNIT? Is there a line any more? 100% agree It would be interesting to hear Nick discuss this on the podcast and give his take - a proper reasoned response, not a glib 2 line response. lidar2 - what was his glib response?
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lidar2
Castellan
You know, now that you mention it, I actually do rather like Attack of the Cybermen ...
Likes: 5,811
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Post by lidar2 on Jan 26, 2022 16:22:58 GMT
100% agree It would be interesting to hear Nick discuss this on the podcast and give his take - a proper reasoned response, not a glib 2 line response. lidar2 - what was his glib response? None, sorry if I was unclear. It was a general point about the podcast. Sometimes in the podcast he takes criticism seriously and gives a reasoned response, other times he gives a more glib response
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Post by bonehead on Jan 26, 2022 17:28:23 GMT
lidar2 - what was his glib response? None, sorry if I was unclear. It was a general point about the podcast. Sometimes in the podcast he takes criticism seriously and gives a reasoned response, other times he gives a more glib response Sorry, I misunderstood your post. It's all good
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Post by shallacatop on Jan 27, 2022 9:14:03 GMT
I get that sales are almost certainly a factor. (For example we know that Benny sales hit rock bottom and so they brought in Seventh Doctor & Ace and then the Unbound Doctor.) I’m sure Out of Time is printing Big Finish money. And beyond that I’m sure writers love playing in the continuity toybox and I’m sure the social media guy loves the “OMG 😱😱😱” reactions every cover reveal gets. But I’m just over saturated on it. Cracking post, but this point in particular is one I've thought about recently. Who is the Big Finish social media for, especially the Twitter "intern" persona? You're right that announcements and cover reveals do typically get excited and OTT responses. But does that translate into sales? I'm not so sure that most people interacting with these announcements are actually Big Finish customers, or at least are buying the crossover release and then jumping into other ranges, which is presumably the intention in these "irresistible" decisions in the first place. I think a lot of people that react are just giving their immediate response and forgetting about it a few minutes later. They like that it's happening, but that doesn't necessarily translate into someone forking out £25, which could quickly turn into much more and instantly be overwhelming, depending on how connected the range is. I'm assuming that's the reason they've got some well known fans on producing duties at Big Finish. I am chuffed for them, but I remember questioning at the time of announcement what they'd bring to the table. It isn't clear what the role of producer is within Big Finish and without experience, it's hard to see what their contribution would be, to be honest. I'm inclined to think it's more using their name in the hope that the people active on Big Finish's social media posts actually purchase.
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Post by grinch on Jan 27, 2022 10:49:50 GMT
I wish I could add anything new to the proceedings but I have to say you have all summed up my thoughts on the matter far more eloquently than I could ever hope to.
In fact, it’s this very idea that I thought was a problem with Titan’s Doctor Who output for the longest time and to a certain extent still exists. (Seems like every issue the Thirteenth Doctor is bumping into the Tenth) Still, I suppose nostalgia does sell when you look at the numbers.
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Post by sherlock on Jan 28, 2022 12:01:42 GMT
This has been a fascinating discussion, alongside the posts in the Eighth Doctor & Charley set thread, which inspired this one. I find myself agreeing with a lot of the points made here. I don't think self-references and crossovers are the issue as such, but rather how uninspiring a lot of recent releases have been. And a lot of that does in turn feed into the fact they exist purely to pair X with Y, or do a sequel to Z. We can go on forever debating the pros and cons of them all, and whether they work or not. In the past year we've had Dalek Universe, where I think the promotion actually does a disservice to the content within those sets, and it absolutely succeeds in telling a cracking story, despite it looking like a lot of returning elements thrown together. Then on the flip side we've just had Forty, which features a dull sequel to The Tomb of the Cybermen and brings back the Ice Warriors because, well, the writer was told to. And those latter points I had about Forty do tend to summarise what I'm feeling with a lot of releases recently. They're not awful, but they're not gripping either. Most seem to meander, not really sure what to do except put two elements together, some are dull and all of them are rather forgettable. The majority of them seem to be written by the same people and they typically contain the same tropes that makes everything all the more repetitive. Stranded 3 has got to be the epitome of this. The Doctor is quippy, Liv and Tania fall out over silly things and then reconcile at the end and then we get the obligatory unconventional story. It's just going through the motions over and over favouring that over its original concept. I was talking about this thread with another member earlier this week and they mentioned the upcoming Seventh Doctor story set on Ribos; it's a massive planet but you can guarantee it'll have returning characters and it'll be set in the catacombs! You can just hear David Richardson on the behind the scenes now; "Well I was rewatching The Ribos Operation recently and I thought it would be irresistible to have a return visit, this time for Sylvester McCoy's Doctor." Er, well, why was it irresistible, David? It can't excite the writers otherwise they'd produce something that isn't going through the motions, unsure of what to do beyond the initial brief of pairing X with Y. I have been debating back and forth about going to download only, as CDs do very little for me, compared to books, Blu-rays, etc. And I look at the shelves of Big Finish sets and wonder how many of them I fondly remember, let alone consider relistening to. Big Finish do have a harder task for me compared to other mediums, I will give them that. With television Doctor Who, it's visual and I will always remember something from it as a result, there's a lot more to "cling" on to. The same for books, we spend longer with them and get tidbits that audio may not offer. However, currently when I'm listening I don't often feel as though there's much effort being put in beside filling the brief and meandering around that. Still, there's still a lot to love about Big Finish and there's standout stuff. In the past year I've loved the two War Doctor Begins sets, Respond to All Calls and the Eleventh Doctor Chronicles was a surprise highlight. None of them are bogged down with crossovers or self-references. It shows Big Finish can still do it, and do it exceptionally well. I don't believe that it's sales that are driving all of these decisions for the most part, it's just that many of the decisions are uninspiring. Throwing Quarks into UNIT will hardly shift an extra thousand downloads, for example. I think Forty and the upcoming Seventh Doctor set particularly egregious examples. Those sets are the respective Doctors debuts in the brave new post-MR era (putting aside the Fifth Doctor set tying up a loose end from the MR) so should really mark the start of whatever direction Big Finish is now taking them, and what do they have to offer…direct sequels to classic stories paired up with a story with another returning foe. It just screams a lack of ideas on part of the writers or an unwillingness by producers to let writers do something in an original direction. So I just haven’t given those releases a second look since their announcement as they just sound uninspired. Maybe that’s wrong of me, but that’s how I felt seeing their announcements. At least Sixie might be going somewhere new with a new companion. I’ve been passing on the Chronicles so far but honestly the latest set being so devoid of continuity is actually making me intrigued. Certainly more so than Forty’s sequel to Tomb of the Cybermen.
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Post by stcoop on Feb 2, 2022 17:38:28 GMT
What if War Doctor but Colin instead of Hurt.
Definitely feels like they're just putting names and ideas in a hat and pulling them out at this point.
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Post by tuigirl on Feb 2, 2022 18:25:44 GMT
What if War Doctor but Colin instead of Hurt. Definitely feels like they're just putting names and ideas in a hat and pulling them out at this point. Yeah, they do. I first had to check if it was April fools today. I had suspected they would bring every BF range into the Time War (because that seems to sell) but that it would happen so soon? And with COLIN of all people?
I totally agree with you. And I am also a bit tired of the Time War.
On the other hand, I totally adore Colin, and if one of the actors can pull off an evil War Doctor, it definitely is Colin. And with Colin we also know that he will always give 150% on his performance and even if the script is less than optimal, Colin will still make it worth your while.
So I am still going to get this, because I am curious and more Colin is always a bonus.
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Post by shallacatop on Apr 28, 2022 7:34:27 GMT
I'm just bumping this thread up to check in three months on. We've had a whole range of announcements since then, many of which fit the criteria that has generated criticism and people to voice their opinions in this thread. Are our thoughts still the same? If so, have you done anything about it? Have you changed your mind in the months since after listening to some of the releases? Would be great to know!
For me, nothing has really changed. Announcements continue to be uninspiring for the most part, with the recent Second Doctor set being the absolute epitome of that, but I do remain hopeful. The Fugitive Doctor & Call Me Master ranges have me optimistic that Big Finish will take advantage of these unexplored eras and present us with something different or provide answers to as-of-yet unexplained questions. I also positively received the River Song announcement too, as it sounds like something I have wanted for a while now.
As for the releases, there have been highlights and lowlights. I loved the recent Fourth Doctor set, especially The Ravencliff Witch, The Annihilators was a pleasant surprise that didn't let up across its seven episodes and Short Trips Volume 11 was a nice return and featured a lovely selection of stories for the most part. Equally, I think we've just had one of the worst months at Big Finish that I can recall with Stranded 4, The Doctor of War: Genesis and specifically The Outlaws from the First Doctor set, reasons which I've heavily detailed in their respective threads. Admittedly, I loved The Miniaturists and I've not yet heard the Companion Chronicles yet, which I'm very much looking forward to.
So what have I done to address my issues? I'm now becoming more selective in ranges and those that I do subscribe or have pre-ordered I am making individual decisions on whether to keep the CD or stick it on eBay. I'm making a good chunk of my money back, the winner is getting a good deal and ultimately my collection is much more curated, which is exactly how it should be. I feel happier with what I do own, it's more representative of my Who interests and I still have the downloads to fall back on, should I want a re-listen of a less favourable release in the years to come.
Interested to hear others thoughts, particularly as opinions on announcements and releases now seem to have shifted on the forum in the past few months to something more balanced on both sides.
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lidar2
Castellan
You know, now that you mention it, I actually do rather like Attack of the Cybermen ...
Likes: 5,811
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Post by lidar2 on Apr 28, 2022 8:54:31 GMT
I'm just bumping this thread up to check in three months on. We've had a whole range of announcements since then, many of which fit the criteria that has generated criticism and people to voice their opinions in this thread. Are our thoughts still the same? If so, have you done anything about it? Have you changed your mind in the months since after listening to some of the releases? Would be great to know! For me, nothing has really changed. Announcements continue to be uninspiring for the most part, with the recent Second Doctor set being the absolute epitome of that, but I do remain hopeful. The Fugitive Doctor & Call Me Master ranges have me optimistic that Big Finish will take advantage of these unexplored eras and present us with something different or provide answers to as-of-yet unexplained questions. I also positively received the River Song announcement too, as it sounds like something I have wanted for a while now. As for the releases, there have been highlights and lowlights. I loved the recent Fourth Doctor set, especially The Ravencliff Witch, The Annihilators was a pleasant surprise that didn't let up across its seven episodes and Short Trips Volume 11 was a nice return and featured a lovely selection of stories for the most part. Equally, I think we've just had one of the worst months at Big Finish that I can recall with Stranded 4, The Doctor of War: Genesis and specifically The Outlaws from the First Doctor set, reasons which I've heavily detailed in their respective threads. Admittedly, I loved The Miniaturists and I've not yet heard the Companion Chronicles yet, which I'm very much looking forward to. So what have I done to address my issues? I'm now becoming more selective in ranges and those that I do subscribe or have pre-ordered I am making individual decisions on whether to keep the CD or stick it on eBay. I'm making a good chunk of my money back, the winner is getting a good deal and ultimately my collection is much more curated, which is exactly how it should be. I feel happier with what I do own, it's more representative of my Who interests and I still have the downloads to fall back on, should I want a re-listen of a less favourable release in the years to come. Interested to hear others thoughts, particularly as opinions on announcements and releases now seem to have shifted on the forum in the past few months to something more balanced on both sides. Interesting to re reread this thread - virtually everyone felt the gimmicks/crossovers were overdone. No one was really in favour. I wonder if that is because of the nature or the forum members - to be posting on this forum you will more than likely be a fairly hardened BF listener, and therefore more likely to get fed up with the same old same old. The crossover/gimmicks are probably aimed more at the casual/irregular/new listener rather than us diehards, so they fact they are not exciting us greatly is maybe priced in by BF and possibly not a major concern to them. A few random thoughts, not in any logical or structured order: Even if, for argument's sake although I don't think it's remotely likely, Nick or Jason was reading this thread and thinking "Hey, they have a point here, let's cut back on the crossovers/gimmicks" it would probably be a couple of years before the fruits of that decision became apparent given how much of the next couple of years is probably mapped out and in the can, albeit unannounced. As for me personally, I am an all-or-nothing kind of guy so it hasn't as yet affected my purchasing habits, and if I do cut back on my purchases it is more likely to be because the current squeeze on living costs has forced my hand. I recall on the old BF forum, when the topic of pick and mix MR subs was brought up, Ian said that if BF did that it would mean every MR story would end up having to be Daleks or Cybermen. So I guess BF are aware of the potential issue and have been for a long time, but perhaps they feel they have no choice in the current market. It's not however all crossovers/gimmicks, I think it is fairly apparent that if BF feel a character/actor is strong enough to carry a box set on their own, then no gimmicks are required - e.g. most of the 9DAs so far, most of the 4DAs. By strong enough I mean strong in terms of the sales they will generate. By the same token one might infer that they seem to believe that other characters/actors are not popular enough on their own to carry a box set and need some additional factor to boost the sales, e.g. the Jacobi Master has not carried a box set alone since Master of Callous. On the other hand, maybe we are being unrealistic to expect that BF could announce a boxset with, say Seven and Ace, and have no marketing other than "one story is base under siege, while the other is a pseudo-historical" and expect it to sell well? I'd still buy it, but then I'm a diehard listener. Would enough casual listeners buy it?
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Post by sherlock on Apr 28, 2022 9:18:59 GMT
Since my earlier rants I did take a break from Who for a bit to marathon Big Finish’s Sherlock Holmes (its genuinely good, more people should listen) and returned for the Ninth Doctor, Short Trips and a late go on Peladon and Warbringer. Those actually somewhat revived my faith in the company, so I gave Eighth of March 2 a go and whilst it didn’t set the world on fire it had a sense of new talent behind it. Hodiac wasn’t brilliant but the shortcomings were kind of in its nature as an abandoned 80s script.
Then along comes Stranded 4. Ah. So we got treated to hints upon hints of how risky this is and potentially goodbyes to shift status quo…but no. It probably didn’t help that my on/off Main Range trip had just hit mid-2003 (you know the time of Jubilee, and the Pirates, Project: Lazarus) which has genuinely very risky and experimental stories. Stranded 4 by contrast just wasn’t. Three stories that were kinda fine, with somewhat gentle tone working with its take on an apocalypse, and then the finale which did nothing risky save touch live wire subject matter and do the most non-committal companion departures since Leela’s one was written in hopes of Louise Jameson changing her mind. I think that just reminded of all my problems with some of current Big Finish. They’re not interested in actually pushing or changing the characters, just keeping the same old status quos going and throw in the gimmicks to give the illusion of this latest event being a Big Deal (Colin Baker as the Curator was well-performed, but was clearly only added as a gimmick, and no I do not buy the behind the scenes stuff about changing form always being innate to the character). Same trick they did with Ravenous. So personally if the next Eighth Doctor set is just the same old companions, with the same old writers - count me out.
I haven’t got to Doctor of War yet, but the mixed reviews are making me drag my feet working through Unbounds of old a bit.
I think I’m going to be much more selective going forward too. Honestly the only ranges I feel confident in giving a blank cheque to these days is the Torchwood Monthlies. Oh and I suppose the Thunderbirds stuff out of pure personal nostalgia value.
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Post by bonehead on Apr 28, 2022 9:53:51 GMT
Like Sherlock, I am waiting for reviews rather than purchasing something as soon as it is announced these days. The much discussed new 2nd Doctor set is a case in point - initially a very welcome, very interesting idea that became a lot less interesting once details were revealed. I'm not bothered about Sylv's long-awaited set for the same reasons, despite him being a favourite of mine.
In a recent extra, Nick Briggs discussed the 'law' of diminishing returns, and that interest wanes in any release after a while. So what are BF to do? Wheel out the Daleks/Cybermen/Ice Warriors again? Every time?
It seems also that if something is praised, then BF proceed to hit us over the head with it. Jon Culshaw's excellent Brig is a case in point; after winning acclaim, he seems part of almost every release now. The stunning watercolour cover designs have been highlighted - and now they crop up everywhere. Too much of a good thing.
Perhaps that's the problem with BF Who at the moment. Too much of a good thing. The ranges I'm more inclined to preorder blind are Torchwood, Sherlock, B7 etc, because they at least don't rely on crossovers and gimmickry.
What should BF do? Or are they quite happy with the way things are? I don't know, but I do miss the days when they were more willing to experiment instead of working with a shopping list of returnees.
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Post by iantoharkness on Apr 28, 2022 18:34:09 GMT
It must be a tricky thing for Big Finish to achieve the right balance. Let's look at the ongoing ranges so far this year:
First Doctor: The Monk came back. This seems like something that was designed to give the range a boost, and I doubt this range will bring back too many recurring characters. Second Doctor: Yeah... here's the thing though. They're giving us 2 four-part stories for the price of six parts in total. Again, I feel like the returning Brigadier, Ice Warriors, and Daleks is more of a way to guarantee sales increases than something that will be permanent to the range. A way to introduce the new era, much in the same way as the Monk in the 1DAs. Third Doctor: The Second Doctor and Jamie featured, but were used well in my opinion, and I have faith in the range that we won't just get more of the same. Fourth Doctor: The Master and the Nine both return. Solo was excellent though - again, the returning character was not used in a way that seemed like a gimmick. Fifth Doctor: It makes sense that for a fortieth anniversary thing they'd bring back old monsters, but Forty 1 was a little stale. I hope Tim Foley's The Auton Infinity uses the autons well (and I have faith in him as a writer). Sixth Doctor: All new. I have full faith in Jacqueline Rayner, and I like that the 'gimmick' for the first set is a new companion and a linking theme rather than a returning element. Seventh Doctor: Cybermen back and Ribos (for some reason). It's interesting to me that producer Emma Haigh mentioned in the press release that it was David Richardson's idea to go back to Ribos. It does look like they're doing something interesting with the Cybermen though. Eighth Doctor: Haven't been following Stranded, but I gather there was little in the way of returning elements. War Doctor: Obviously the Time War is involved, but so far I've been a fan of the stories they've told, and the upcoming set looks like it will also do interesting things. Ninth Doctor: Mostly stand-alone. Tenth Doctor: Since the initial three volumes, every single set has relied on something coming back, be it Daleks, classic companions, or classic Doctors. Eleventh and Twelfth Doctors: Producer Alfie Shaw has been pretty clear that in the Chronicles sets he wants to carve out new eras, so I doubt he'll use too many gimmicks.
The Audio Novels: Every single novel has had a returning element frustratingly. Unbound: The less said, the better. The War Master: Falls back on gimmicks but uses them well.
Torchwood: Perfectly uses returning elements where appropriate but is also great at telling one-off stories.
So overall it does seem to me that things vary wildly depending on producers. David Richardson is the prime suspect here. I very much get the sense that he has such a love for the show that he wants to tell as many Dalek stories as he can, and persuade other producers to tell the stories he wants. James Goss at Torchwood works wonders, and even though there was a period last year where the range utilised a number of Doctor Who characters, the stories they told were all really interesting. I think it's clear that interesting stories can be told regardless, but it's ensuring that people will buy that's the difficult part.
The Torchwood range benefits from having such an overwhelmingly positive fanbase (only natural, as it's been years since they've had a real miss), whereas the more expensive Doctor Who sets really do need a hook.
Personally, I think the way to achieve this hook is to do what Rayner's doing with the Sixth Doctor - come up with something original (in this case, a new companion who's a wheelchair user), and find a theme for the set (in this case, Water Worlds). Torchwood One: Latter Days is another example of a themed set - in this case, each of the three stories was about retirement, which led to some really interesting storylines. I think that utilising the boxset format in this way would really be beneficial.
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Post by shallacatop on Apr 28, 2022 19:02:41 GMT
I'm just bumping this thread up to check in three months on. We've had a whole range of announcements since then, many of which fit the criteria that has generated criticism and people to voice their opinions in this thread. Are our thoughts still the same? If so, have you done anything about it? Have you changed your mind in the months since after listening to some of the releases? Would be great to know! For me, nothing has really changed. Announcements continue to be uninspiring for the most part, with the recent Second Doctor set being the absolute epitome of that, but I do remain hopeful. The Fugitive Doctor & Call Me Master ranges have me optimistic that Big Finish will take advantage of these unexplored eras and present us with something different or provide answers to as-of-yet unexplained questions. I also positively received the River Song announcement too, as it sounds like something I have wanted for a while now. As for the releases, there have been highlights and lowlights. I loved the recent Fourth Doctor set, especially The Ravencliff Witch, The Annihilators was a pleasant surprise that didn't let up across its seven episodes and Short Trips Volume 11 was a nice return and featured a lovely selection of stories for the most part. Equally, I think we've just had one of the worst months at Big Finish that I can recall with Stranded 4, The Doctor of War: Genesis and specifically The Outlaws from the First Doctor set, reasons which I've heavily detailed in their respective threads. Admittedly, I loved The Miniaturists and I've not yet heard the Companion Chronicles yet, which I'm very much looking forward to. So what have I done to address my issues? I'm now becoming more selective in ranges and those that I do subscribe or have pre-ordered I am making individual decisions on whether to keep the CD or stick it on eBay. I'm making a good chunk of my money back, the winner is getting a good deal and ultimately my collection is much more curated, which is exactly how it should be. I feel happier with what I do own, it's more representative of my Who interests and I still have the downloads to fall back on, should I want a re-listen of a less favourable release in the years to come. Interested to hear others thoughts, particularly as opinions on announcements and releases now seem to have shifted on the forum in the past few months to something more balanced on both sides. Interesting to re reread this thread - virtually everyone felt the gimmicks/crossovers were overdone. No one was really in favour. I wonder if that is because of the nature or the forum members - to be posting on this forum you will more than likely be a fairly hardened BF listener, and therefore more likely to get fed up with the same old same old. The crossover/gimmicks are probably aimed more at the casual/irregular/new listener rather than us diehards, so they fact they are not exciting us greatly is maybe priced in by BF and possibly not a major concern to them. A few random thoughts, not in any logical or structured order: Even if, for argument's sake although I don't think it's remotely likely, Nick or Jason was reading this thread and thinking "Hey, they have a point here, let's cut back on the crossovers/gimmicks" it would probably be a couple of years before the fruits of that decision became apparent given how much of the next couple of years is probably mapped out and in the can, albeit unannounced. As for me personally, I am an all-or-nothing kind of guy so it hasn't as yet affected my purchasing habits, and if I do cut back on my purchases it is more likely to be because the current squeeze on living costs has forced my hand. I recall on the old BF forum, when the topic of pick and mix MR subs was brought up, Ian said that if BF did that it would mean every MR story would end up having to be Daleks or Cybermen. So I guess BF are aware of the potential issue and have been for a long time, but perhaps they feel they have no choice in the current market. It's not however all crossovers/gimmicks, I think it is fairly apparent that if BF feel a character/actor is strong enough to carry a box set on their own, then no gimmicks are required - e.g. most of the 9DAs so far, most of the 4DAs. By strong enough I mean strong in terms of the sales they will generate. By the same token one might infer that they seem to believe that other characters/actors are not popular enough on their own to carry a box set and need some additional factor to boost the sales, e.g. the Jacobi Master has not carried a box set alone since Master of Callous. On the other hand, maybe we are being unrealistic to expect that BF could announce a boxset with, say Seven and Ace, and have no marketing other than "one story is base under siege, while the other is a pseudo-historical" and expect it to sell well? I'd still buy it, but then I'm a diehard listener. Would enough casual listeners buy it? I think you’re overestimating the casual market, to be honest. I don’t think there are that many people that dip in and out of Big Finish. That’s not to say that everyone buys everything, I’m guessing very few do, but you have a certain level of investment to be a customer with them. They don’t appeal to the casual purchaser, no matter how much they try, because their pricing doesn’t reflect that for a whole variety of reasons; legitimate or otherwise. I don’t think the gimmicks or crossovers do carry appeal in a lot of cases. Why would a sequel to The Ribos Operation be appealing to this supposed casual purchaser when it barely musters any enthusiasm for the fan base? Similarly there’s a good enough premise with Beyond War Games without adding Daleks or Ice Warriors or The Brigadier. And this isn’t something that came out alongside a cover; it was its own announcement with no visuals. Similarly I feel you’re overestimating the Fourth & Ninth Doctor Adventures. The former has only recently gotten beyond churning out 60 minute stories with a whole rogues gallery of returning elements. They couldn’t even do their first original companion without tying into The Daleks Master Plan. Five sets from the Ninth Doctor and two of them feature returning elements and intentionally attempt to mirror Eccleston’s screen series. As you say, they should stand on their own feet. But Big Finish often don’t allow them too. I don’t think it’s always marketing - nobody’s screaming out for sequels to The Ribos Operation, a re-encounter with the Ice Warriors or Quarks - it’s what is being commissioned. It’s uninspiring and the quality often reflects that. And it’s not that all returning elements are bad, some can be used effectively, there just has to be the desire. I disagree with your Jacobi argument; all of them have felt natural and faithful to his character. I don’t like Anti-Genesis, but it’s absolutely logical his incarnation would be tasked with it. When we get one of these new Doctor box sets that just stands on its own feet, without a gimmick or a returning element, then we can be surprised. But it’s not happened yet and there’s no indication it’s on the horizon as of yet. You only have to listen to a handful of behind the scenes to understand how it all comes about; David Richardson. Returning Element. Irresistible.
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