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Post by mark687 on Mar 10, 2022 17:13:38 GMT
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Post by masterdoctor on Mar 10, 2022 17:23:09 GMT
Sanjeev Bhaskar has long been someone I wanted to see in a big role at Big Finish(he's done Worldwide Web and The Eight Truths), so this is insanely exciting. I do find it quite funny that his return is in a Barnaby Kay directed set, as Barnaby Kay is husband to a certain Nicola Walker. Also, Sanjeev Bhaskar in The Robots 5 or 6 please!
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Post by constonks on Mar 10, 2022 19:48:50 GMT
Only the second time Big Finish has done Borusa - both times in alternate timelines! (Last time, she was played by Katy Manning...)
Also, this blurb hypes me up so much:
“It’s jolly exciting. The episodes are so extraordinarily non-linear and everyone's on catch-up. We’re not quite sure where we are, what planet we’re on, what timeline we’re in and that’s an exciting prospect to unravel."
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Post by grinch on Mar 10, 2022 19:49:58 GMT
Only the second time Big Finish has done Borusa - both times in alternate timelines! (Last time, she was played by Katy Manning...) Also, this blurb hypes me up so much: “It’s jolly exciting. The episodes are so extraordinarily non-linear and everyone's on catch-up. We’re not quite sure where we are, what planet we’re on, what timeline we’re in and that’s an exciting prospect to unravel." I wonder if this is meant to infer that the existence of the Daleks is a fixed point in time?
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Post by constonks on Mar 10, 2022 20:18:20 GMT
I wonder if this is meant to infer that the existence of the Daleks is a fixed point in time? I expect it must be - they're practically a force of nature! And I'd love this series to explore what the Time Lords do when they want to unfix a fixed point...
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Post by mark687 on Mar 15, 2022 15:03:28 GMT
Trailer Online
Regards
mark687
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Post by masterdoctor on Mar 15, 2022 15:27:52 GMT
To be honest, the more I hear, the more I’m happy to have this continue past the second set. A long running unbound really messing with established Who. From the sounds Colin is really going darker for this, with a genuine growl.
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Post by antartiks on Mar 15, 2022 15:34:51 GMT
It's always a joy to have new material for Beevers and I think his malevolent incarnation looks really fitting here, facing this new War Doctor and teasing him, almost trying to make him come over to the dark side.
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Post by grinch on Mar 15, 2022 16:46:40 GMT
This series just sounds better and better.
I honestly do wonder whether with the existence of this Doctor of War Beevers Master will be taking on a more heroic role in this series or in the face of his friend seemingly abandoning his principles a new role he’ll quickly grow accustomed to.
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Post by mrperson on Mar 15, 2022 18:08:15 GMT
I wonder if this is meant to infer that the existence of the Daleks is a fixed point in time? I expect it must be - they're practically a force of nature! And I'd love this series to explore what the Time Lords do when they want to unfix a fixed point...
If the new series is any guide, they don't need to do all that much. Start with S6. His death was a fixed point. So he faked it and erased himself from databases. Annnnnd then he just sorta went back to giving out his name and doing the exact same things that supposedly made him so notorious in the first place. Nothing happened as a result of this changed fixed point.
Then comes the next season. Now he's got another fixed point death on Trenzalore. That time around nobody bothered with anything, just zapped him with more regeneration juice. Nothing happened as a result this time either.
I suppose the way to reconcile this is to say that it's more a problem of correctly identifying a fixed point, that he was simply wrong about his deaths being two of them, and that it's thus generally a good thing to try not to do the stuff that might affect a fixed point you haven't identified because weird things happen.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2022 23:19:10 GMT
Sanjeev Bhaskar has long been someone I wanted to see in a big role at Big Finish(he's done Worldwide Web and The Eight Truths), so this is insanely exciting. I do find it quite funny that his return is in a Barnaby Kay directed set, as Barnaby Kay is husband to a certain Nicola Walker. Also, Sanjeev Bhaskar in The Robots 5 or 6 please! Was his Series 8 UNIT officer an undercover Borusa who went along with Missys actions and faked his death?
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Post by noneofyourbusiness on Mar 16, 2022 20:08:55 GMT
I expect it must be - they're practically a force of nature! And I'd love this series to explore what the Time Lords do when they want to unfix a fixed point...
If the new series is any guide, they don't need to do all that much. Start with S6. His death was a fixed point. So he faked it and erased himself from databases. Annnnnd then he just sorta went back to giving out his name and doing the exact same things that supposedly made him so notorious in the first place. Nothing happened as a result of this changed fixed point.
Then comes the next season. Now he's got another fixed point death on Trenzalore. That time around nobody bothered with anything, just zapped him with more regeneration juice. Nothing happened as a result this time either.
I suppose the way to reconcile this is to say that it's more a problem of correctly identifying a fixed point, that he was simply wrong about his deaths being two of them, and that it's thus generally a good thing to try not to do the stuff that might affect a fixed point you haven't identified because weird things happen.
River shooting the Tesselecta was always the fixed point, the Doctor didn't change it.
He was never said to have a fixed point death on Trenzalore.
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Post by mrperson on Mar 21, 2022 16:13:28 GMT
If the new series is any guide, they don't need to do all that much. Start with S6. His death was a fixed point. So he faked it and erased himself from databases. Annnnnd then he just sorta went back to giving out his name and doing the exact same things that supposedly made him so notorious in the first place. Nothing happened as a result of this changed fixed point.
Then comes the next season. Now he's got another fixed point death on Trenzalore. That time around nobody bothered with anything, just zapped him with more regeneration juice. Nothing happened as a result this time either.
I suppose the way to reconcile this is to say that it's more a problem of correctly identifying a fixed point, that he was simply wrong about his deaths being two of them, and that it's thus generally a good thing to try not to do the stuff that might affect a fixed point you haven't identified because weird things happe
River shooting the Tesselecta was always the fixed point, the Doctor didn't change it.
He was never said to have a fixed point death on Trenzalore.
Which renders just about everything else about the season insensible, especially the whole tribute to Nicholas Courtney: he calls, finds out the brig has died, and decides it's time to go die at Silencio. He's already worked it out by then.
Why would he even be able to make that decision if it wasn't supposed to be fixed? Fixed points are the ones he supposedly cannot change, or at least that's what the show said right on up to that point. He only even thinks of using the Teleselecta to escape death at the last instant.
And of course, then he decides/"learns" that he really dies on Trenzelore (see dialogue from Day below)
Basically, either none of these were fixed and he simply cannot tell what is/is not, rendering the concept just about useless. Or they were fixed but you actually can change fixed points - nay your own death - if you are careful or if timelords crack the universe open and magics him some regeneration energy (that we know know was stolen from him in the first place, but anyway).
(I could also note that the whole Doctor's Death fixed points thing played out differently than fixed points in Waters of Mars. There, he saves the woman, but time reasserts itself...she simply kills herself on Earth rather than dying on Mars. The concept is a mess).
_____________--
Dialogue from Day:
TENTH DOCTOR: (removes glasses) I won't remember either, so you might as well tell me.
DOCTOR: (walks over) Tell you what?
TENTH DOCTOR: Where it is we're going that you don't want to talk about.
DOCTOR: (hesitates) I saw Trenzalore... where we're buried. We die in battle among millions.
TENTH DOCTOR: That's not how it's supposed to be.
DOCTOR: That's how the story ends - nothing we can do about it. Trenzalore is where you're going.
TENTH DOCTOR: Oh, never say nothing. (shakes the DOCTOR’S hand) Anyway... good to know my future is in safe hands. Keep a tight hold on it, Clara. (sets tea on the bench)
CLARA: Mm! On it!
CLARA stands and reaches out her hand. The TENTH DOCTOR takes it, lifts it to his lips and kisses it. He then heads towards his TARDIS.
TENTH DOCTOR: Trenzalore. (unlocks door) We need a new destination, because... (opens door) I don't want to go. (enters)
The TARDIS dematerializes.
DOCTOR: He always says that. (walks over and stands in front of the painting)
Why would Moffat include dialogue in Day, written well after the ending of S6, if 11 didn't think his death on Trenzalore was a fixed point, eh? It doesn't make sense. Why would he be lying to his younger self, who won't remember anyway, about dying on Trenzalore in his own future? Yes, it was supposed to be fixed.
Yes, he changed a fixed point. No, "fixed point" means no more than what a given writer wants it to mean
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Post by Kestrel on Mar 21, 2022 18:27:46 GMT
My understanding is that the "laws of time" are not natural laws, but more like legal laws. It's not that altering fixed points is impossible, but rather that it's extremely unwise and dangerous, likely to result in things like paradoxes and alternate universes and all manner of chaos and unpredictable consequence.
If a thing is fixed, it can be unfixed.
This is why Waters of Mars works--the Doctor realizes that with Gallifrey gone, there's no one left to enforce the laws of time. That things go poorly is less "time reasserting itself," and more that the Doctor failed to foresee how the astronaut would react to the knowledge that he had just annihilated an entire timeline on a whim. It was her exerting the same agency over the timeline that the Doctor did, in an attempt to undo the damage he dealt.
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Post by noneofyourbusiness on Mar 22, 2022 15:10:19 GMT
River shooting the Tesselecta was always the fixed point, the Doctor didn't change it.
He was never said to have a fixed point death on Trenzalore.
Which renders just about everything else about the season insensible, especially the whole tribute to Nicholas Courtney: he calls, finds out the brig has died, and decides it's time to go die at Silencio. He's already worked it out by then.
Why would he even be able to make that decision if it wasn't supposed to be fixed? Fixed points are the ones he supposedly cannot change, or at least that's what the show said right on up to that point. He only even thinks of using the Teleselecta to escape death at the last instant.
And of course, then he decides/"learns" that he really dies on Trenzelore (see dialogue from Day below)
Basically, either none of these were fixed and he simply cannot tell what is/is not, rendering the concept just about useless. Or they were fixed but you actually can change fixed points - nay your own death - if you are careful or if timelords crack the universe open and magics him some regeneration energy (that we know know was stolen from him in the first place, but anyway).
(I could also note that the whole Doctor's Death fixed points thing played out differently than fixed points in Waters of Mars. There, he saves the woman, but time reasserts itself...she simply kills herself on Earth rather than dying on Mars. The concept is a mess).
_____________--
Dialogue from Day:
TENTH DOCTOR: (removes glasses) I won't remember either, so you might as well tell me.
DOCTOR: (walks over) Tell you what?
TENTH DOCTOR: Where it is we're going that you don't want to talk about.
DOCTOR: (hesitates) I saw Trenzalore... where we're buried. We die in battle among millions.
TENTH DOCTOR: That's not how it's supposed to be.
DOCTOR: That's how the story ends - nothing we can do about it. Trenzalore is where you're going.
TENTH DOCTOR: Oh, never say nothing. (shakes the DOCTOR’S hand) Anyway... good to know my future is in safe hands. Keep a tight hold on it, Clara. (sets tea on the bench)
CLARA: Mm! On it!
CLARA stands and reaches out her hand. The TENTH DOCTOR takes it, lifts it to his lips and kisses it. He then heads towards his TARDIS.
TENTH DOCTOR: Trenzalore. (unlocks door) We need a new destination, because... (opens door) I don't want to go. (enters)
The TARDIS dematerializes.
DOCTOR: He always says that. (walks over and stands in front of the painting)
Why would Moffat include dialogue in Day, written well after the ending of S6, if 11 didn't think his death on Trenzalore was a fixed point, eh? It doesn't make sense. Why would he be lying to his younger self, who won't remember anyway, about dying on Trenzalore in his own future? Yes, it was supposed to be fixed.
Yes, he changed a fixed point. No, "fixed point" means no more than what a given writer wants it to mean
1. Series 6: "Why would he even be able to make that decision if [him dying] wasn't supposed to be fixed?"? That's not a logical question, since what matters is his final decision and that wasn't it - his decision to die was never acted on because he changed his mind. The decision that mattered was the one to use the Teselecta. Which proves that was the fixed point and never his death. I don't know why you think it being a last-minute decision invalidates that, because obviously only the last decision counts in this sequence of events.
He knows that someone who looks like him will be shot by River in Lake Silencio. It's already been observed. He can't not go there and let that happen without time breaking. But he realized that nothing said that the fixed point had to be his real death. No one had seen un-fakeable proof that he died. If it hadn't been a fixed point, he could have just not gone and there wouldn't have been a paradox. If shooting the Teslecta hadn't been the fixed point, there wouldn't have been a paradox when River didn't shoot the Teselecta but there would have been one when he used it to escape death. There wasn't. Steven Moffat said in an interview around that time that the fixed point was always the Teselecta. Now, I think River shooting a robot that only looks like the Doctor being a fixed point, just because, is a bit lame, but for better or worse that's what Moffat wrote and what he said about it. It's a stable time loop. Nothing changed. So this doesn't detract from the Doctor being able to sense fixed points or it being bad to change them; he wasn't wrong about there being one at Lake Silencio and ultimately it stayed the same.
2. The Day of the Doctor: If they didn't use the words "fixed point" it's speculation to call it a fixed point. The show hasn't been shy about calling things fixed points, so if it were, I'd expect them to use the phrase. It's practically one of their favorite phrases. The Doctor thinking that his death going to come upon him someday isn't the same thing as calling it a fixed point. He can't control it if he doesn't know how or when it's going to happen to him. Eleven was being pessimistic in that moment because he'd seen the time scar but Ten suggested it was avoidable and even said it wasn't supposed to happen, which he'd be less inclined to do if it were a fixed point (especially since this was after "The Waters of Mars" for him, so he'd recently been humbled). Surviving in "The Time of the Doctor' didn't cause a paradox like River refusing to shoot the Teselecta did, which points (no pun intended) towards it not being fixed. So does the fact that the Doctors' incarnations didn't all have a sense that it was unavoidable. Also, as Moffat himself said, there's no incontrovertible evidence that the death on Trenzalore that left the time scar was supposed to be from the conflict in "The Time of the Doctor" and not the Doctor's later eventual death that's still coming (see "Behind the Scenes" here: tardis.fandom.com/wiki/Trenzalore )
I agree, of course, that fixed points mean whatever the writers want them to mean, because of course they do. They're a plot device. But one thing that's been consistent so far is that tampering with them creates a paradox and/or a screwed up alternate timeline unless someone like Adelaide - or the Doctor when he told River the truth - fixes it (the difference being how exactly the paradox manifests itself in each episode). That happened in Series 6 when River didn't shoot the Teselecta because that was the fixed point, and things went back to normal when she did shoot it because, again, that was the fixed point. That had always been the fixed point. It didn't happen in "The Time of the Doctor" because a fixed point wasn't changed. If the Time Lords found it very difficult to maintain the flow of time in this new Unbound story like Constonks was speculating, it would be consistent with there being serious consequences for changing a fixed point if the creation of the Daleks is one. It hasn't been at all easy to change them like you said.
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Post by aussiedoctorwhofan on Apr 1, 2022 8:30:53 GMT
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Post by thelonecenturion on Apr 1, 2022 14:58:24 GMT
Just listened to the newsletter preview for this.
Holy **** it's amazing, I can't wait to hear the rest. If the rest of the series is as good as its first 15 mins, this may be one of BF's best in years. Absolutely loved it.
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Post by theillusiveman on Apr 1, 2022 15:21:28 GMT
Currently listening to the excerpt its really good so far
{Spoiler} * Tom Bakers Performance in The opening is quite great i love the anger in his Voice when he encounters The Dalek that kills Sarah and Harry
*I Like how The Narvin/4th Doctor Scene is a re imagining of The Night of The Doctor elixir scene
*The New Theme song is really neat it has a nice take on The War Doctor theme but more Gothic
Looking forward to the full boxset when it gets released
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Post by shallacatop on Apr 1, 2022 21:18:20 GMT
I thought the pre-titles of the excerpt was brilliant. Tom was on blistering form and it’s almost a shame he turns into Colin; I’d loved to have seen what he could’ve done. Instead we end up getting thrown into a typical Doctor Who story with Colin who sounds exactly like and is playing the Sixth Doctor. Granted it’s only an excerpt, but it does feel like a come down after that brilliant pre-titles.
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Post by jacobz40 on Apr 1, 2022 22:30:15 GMT
I never listen to previews of something I know I'm going to buy, but the comments seemed so positive, I had to listen. All I can say is WOW.
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