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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2022 5:22:05 GMT
Harking back to here, I still feel as if some people are being a bit unfair to Big Finish lately. I wouldn't say they're being toxic and I regret saying that when I first created this thread, but I often feel as though the negative side of Big Finish is also that's ever talked about on this forum. I'm not saying people aren't allowed to criticise Big Finish, but it does feel a bit much a lot of the time. I do always try to justify myself when showcasing my opinions, but I'm afraid it doesn't always work out. I personally don't have a problem with the new Big Finish slogan and ident, and it might not be universally hated as I know a couple of people that like it. But that's just my opinion. If you guys think I'm not justifying myself, which I hope isn't the case, I will understand. Its our money, its not like they are a charity. BF stopped treating us like individuals a long time back. So Im not sure why I should not treat them as I would any other business - praise the stuff I like, show why I dislike the stuff I dont..and call out any BS from them as a company. Its only ever "a lot" because BF will do what they have done in the last few days from time to time - completely misread the room, be ill-prepared for feedback, not have answers to follow ups and - crucially - not even fixed the last time this all kicked off. That other thread about overseas customers? They announced it...were massively criticised...and then didn't ever implement or mention it. The BF way. To call it out is not "a bit much". No-one has used "toxic" and we mock the ident but no-one is dropping audios over it (I delete them from my rips anyway) - but these price issues? They DO have the potential to drive people away. So its not a bit much. Its exactly what the fans (ie. us) are discussing! BF should consider posts like the last few days free consumer feedback surveys.
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Post by shallacatop on Jun 19, 2022 6:19:59 GMT
If you want some positivity then check out the Out of Time 3: Wink thread. That shows just how much we all love the product and what Big Finish put out. When you get a release like that they’re unparalleled.
It’s the business side of things that tend to let them down. And I think that often leads into the creativity, or seemingly a lack of it, behind some of the releases, which many of us have previously been vocal about in other threads. Your opinion of a story can differ from person to person. The decisions behind, er, decisions tend to come from a different place and therefore you get to the point where you’re dealing with facts and evidence.
As @davygallagher points out, posts should be used as consumer feedback, particularly when they’re detailed and constructive, which I feel they are.
And just to reiterate what I said on this thread originally. My personal pet peeve that’s happening more frequently is things being taken out of context or inferring someone is saying something when they’re not saying anything of the sort; a distortion to produce their own side of the argument. That’s not exclusive to either side of the argument or this forum, though. However, it is becoming more prevalent on here.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2022 13:32:19 GMT
Harking back to here, I still feel as if some people are being a bit unfair to Big Finish lately. I wouldn't say they're being toxic and I regret saying that when I first created this thread, but I often feel as though the negative side of Big Finish is also that's ever talked about on this forum. I'm not saying people aren't allowed to criticise Big Finish, but it does feel a bit much a lot of the time. I think what often gets missed is that most people's default position on Big Finish is positive, or they wouldn't be here! This is not exactly the trendiest site on the internet, heck, it's not even the trendiest Doctor Who site, rec.arts.drwho surely wins that award. (Oh sorry, I mean GallifreyBase... but it's pretty much the same thing!) We are here for a reason and that reason is our love of the Big Finish audios. So if your default position on Big Finish is positive you're more likely to post more about the things that rub you up the wrong way, as you expect the stories to be good so it's only a matter of course when they are. Sure, Nick Briggs would probably like to see everyone here post about how brilliant every Big Finish story is, especially his! But after a few years it would soon get tedious reading about how every story was just so wonderful. Not everything Big Finish does is great. The stories they make are well written, well produced and with [generally] top performances from the cast. They are probably the best quality Doctor Who audio stories that anyone can produce, but there will always be stories that don't work for some people, and yes, they will say it.
When you love a company and give it loyalty over a period of years (22 years this month in my case!) you feel you should be able to give your opinion on Big Finish without Nick sneering at you being a moaning minnie or the BF sycophants getting offended. People complain because they care, but in the last few years that care is one way traffic. In the quest for new blood and with their revolutionary new marketing 'ideas' Big Finish left a lot of us behind on some issues. (The 'order tax' should have been sorted years ago!) We are more like unknown customers of an uncaring big company now than the people who are the bread and butter that keeps Big Finish going. I feel that Big Finish have taken a lot of their fans for granted in recent years so sometimes people will complain. Whether it can be viewed as harsh or not depends on the issue involved. But anyone still here clearly has love for Big Finish and what they produce, and that's all that matters in the long run.
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Post by BHTvsTFC on Jun 19, 2022 14:38:47 GMT
^ Nicely put!
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Post by grinch on Jun 19, 2022 14:43:20 GMT
Harking back to here, I still feel as if some people are being a bit unfair to Big Finish lately. I wouldn't say they're being toxic and I regret saying that when I first created this thread, but I often feel as though the negative side of Big Finish is also that's ever talked about on this forum. I'm not saying people aren't allowed to criticise Big Finish, but it does feel a bit much a lot of the time. I think what often gets missed is that most people's default position on Big Finish is positive, or they wouldn't be here! This is not exactly the trendiest site on the internet, heck, it's not even the trendiest Doctor Who site, rec.arts.drwho surely wins that award. (Oh sorry, I mean GallifreyBase... but it's pretty much the same thing!) We are here for a reason and that reason is our love of the Big Finish audios. So if your default position on Big Finish is positive you're more likely to post more about the things that rub you up the wrong way, as you expect the stories to be good so it's only a matter of course when they are. Sure, Nick Briggs would probably like to see everyone here post about how brilliant every Big Finish story is, especially his! But after a few years it would soon get tedious reading about how every story was just so wonderful. Not everything Big Finish does is great. The stories they make are well written, well produced and with [generally] top performances from the cast. They are probably the best quality Doctor Who audio stories that anyone can produce, but there will always be stories that don't work for some people, and yes, they will say it.
When you love a company and give it loyalty over a period of years (22 years this month in my case!) you feel you should be able to give your opinion on Big Finish without Nick sneering at you being a moaning minnie or the BF sycophants getting offended. People complain because they care, but in the last few years that care is one way traffic. In the quest for new blood and with their revolutionary new marketing 'ideas' Big Finish left a lot of us behind on some issues. (The 'order tax' should have been sorted years ago!) We are more like unknown customers of an uncaring big company now than the people who are the bread and butter that keeps Big Finish going. I feel that Big Finish have taken a lot of their fans for granted in recent years so sometimes people will complain. Whether it can be viewed as harsh or not depends on the issue involved. But anyone still here clearly has love for Big Finish and what they produce, and that's all that matters in the long run.
Here, here!
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Post by Kestrel on Jun 20, 2022 16:12:52 GMT
Yeah, we're all a bunch of genuine weirdos enthusiasts here.
Speaking more seriously, I do agree that the discussion around Big Finish lately has trended more negative. But I don't really see that as a problem: they keep doing things people don't like, and that's bound to provoke a response.
At a certain point w/ every fandom it becomes necessary to separate media from the people who create it. I'm an enormous Star Trek fan, but man, I will be the first to tell you that there are some incredibly awful people and business practices and creative decisions embedded in the bleeding heart of that particular sci-fi franchise. But that doesn't preclude my enjoyment of Star Trek media born from that messiness. Likewise, here, with Big Finish... I don't really see any incompatibility with criticizing Big Finish while also praising specific audios.
Like... if I were to speculate on the two three biggest discussion topics in this community over the last year or two, I think they'd be: criticism/incredulity of Big Finish's marketing; pretty mixed responses after the initial elation surrounding the 9DAs, trending more positive than negative, especially post-Ravagers; and absolute unfettered praise for everything they done with David Tennant, from The Tenth Doctor and River Song to Dalek Universe to Out of Time to that one spectacular set I won't name because I think his appearance in it was initially hidden, making it a spoiler? All of which amounts to more positivity than negativity, I think.
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Post by Audio Watchdog on Jun 21, 2022 12:29:23 GMT
I think part of the problem for a lot of us long timers is Big Finish used to be a much more personal thing. The people at BF produced much less content. You would meet Nick or Paul or Jason at conventions. You could chat with them for a long time at the table, in the hallway or at the bar. You had a regular people interacting with them on the podcast & listeners emails. One could have non-BF email correspondences with Paul and later Ian. Big Finish produced much less content. You had the Big Finish forum where one knew feedback was being looked at. Big Finish started producing more content. The forum got eliminated….on a Big Finish Day no less. Big Finish started producing even more content. The company has got bigger and thus more impersonal. And yet here we old timers are. A lot of us gathered here. Our voices used to be heard, And often addressed and responded to. Now, not so much. So yeah, those gathered here care about Big Finish. Most of us have spent thousands and thousands on Big Finish. We are invested in Big Finish. So in the absence of feedback being acknowledged in a respectful way by Nick, if it is acknowledged at all, we vent here. Anyway.
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That bad?
Jun 21, 2022 13:02:51 GMT
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Post by theillusiveman on Jun 21, 2022 13:02:51 GMT
I think part of the problem for a lot of us long timers is Big Finish used to be a much more personal thing. The people at BF produced much less content. You would meet Nick or Paul or Jason at conventions. You could chat with them for a long time at the table, in the hallway or at the bar. You had a regular people interacting with them on the podcast & listeners emails. One could have non-BF email correspondences with Paul and later Ian. Big Finish produced much less content. You had the Big Finish forum where one knew feedback was being looked at. Big Finish started producing more content. The forum got eliminated….on a Big Finish Day no less. Big Finish started producing even more content. The company has got bigger and thus more impersonal. And yet here we old timers are. A lot of us gathered here. Our voices used to be heard, And often addressed and responded to. Now, not so much. So yeah, those gathered here care about Big Finish. Most of us have spent thousands and thousands on Big Finish. We are invested in Big Finish. So in the absence of feedback being acknowledged in a respectful way by Nick, if it is acknowledged at all, we vent here. Anyway. Honestly I see Big Finish has become very corporate in recent times Its funny how you mention the absence of feedback being acknowledged in a respectful way by Nick given Briggs comments on the podcast regarding Criticism and positive reviews
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2022 14:14:23 GMT
Most of us have spent thousands and thousands on Big Finish. We are invested in Big Finish. So in the absence of feedback being acknowledged in a respectful way by Nick, if it is acknowledged at all, we vent here. It's funny how you mention the absence of feedback being acknowledged in a respectful way by Nick given Briggs comments on the podcast regarding Criticism and positive reviews Uncle Nick unfortunately doesn't respect any negativity, so he is happy to get excited at the 9/10 and 10/10 rated reviews given by people who get free stories to review, but then takes exception to a mildly negative review given by somebody who actually spent their hard earned money on a story and probably has more right to mention if something didn't work for them or if the story didn't come across as entertaining.
I think Nick is so connected to every story and loves what Big Finish do it probably all seems personal to him, when a lot of the time the negative feedback isn't meant that way.
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That bad?
Jun 21, 2022 14:34:25 GMT
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Post by theillusiveman on Jun 21, 2022 14:34:25 GMT
It's funny how you mention the absence of feedback being acknowledged in a respectful way by Nick given Briggs comments on the podcast regarding Criticism and positive reviews Uncle Nick unfortunately doesn't respect any negativity, so he is happy to get excited at the 9/10 and 10/10 rated reviews given by people who get free stories to review, but then takes exception to a mildly negative review given by somebody who actually spent their hard earned money on a story and probably has more right to mention if something didn't work for them or if the story didn't come across as entertaining.
I think Nick is so connected to every story and loves what Big Finish do it probably all seems personal to him, when a lot of the time the negative feedback isn't meant that way. The Regen Reviews Facebook incident was a real eye opener If that was his reaction to a 7 out of 10 Imagine a 3 out of 10 review
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Post by BHTvsTFC on Jun 21, 2022 16:07:13 GMT
What makes me laugh with Nick is he can give the negativity out though. I remember him saying The Boy That Time Forgot wasn't a story he liked personally (And Paul Magrs throwing his dummy out of the pram in response!). And it makes me laugh when he calls episodes of the show insubstantial, which is a bit rich from the man who wrote The Conquest of Far, Anti-Genesis and The Dalek Protocol!
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Post by Audio Watchdog on Jun 21, 2022 17:25:21 GMT
It's funny how you mention the absence of feedback being acknowledged in a respectful way by Nick given Briggs comments on the podcast regarding Criticism and positive reviews Uncle Nick unfortunately doesn't respect any negativity, so he is happy to get excited at the 9/10 and 10/10 rated reviews given by people who get free stories to review, but then takes exception to a mildly negative review given by somebody who actually spent their hard earned money on a story and probably has more right to mention if something didn't work for them or if the story didn't come across as entertaining.
I think Nick is so connected to every story and loves what Big Finish do it probably all seems personal to him, when a lot of the time the negative feedback isn't meant that way. To be fair, while Nick was always a little sensitive to criticism, this fairly strident & often toxic pushback to anything deemed negative is a relatively recent change.
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Post by Audio Watchdog on Jun 21, 2022 17:28:26 GMT
I think part of the problem for a lot of us long timers is Big Finish used to be a much more personal thing. The people at BF produced much less content. You would meet Nick or Paul or Jason at conventions. You could chat with them for a long time at the table, in the hallway or at the bar. You had a regular people interacting with them on the podcast & listeners emails. One could have non-BF email correspondences with Paul and later Ian. Big Finish produced much less content. You had the Big Finish forum where one knew feedback was being looked at. Big Finish started producing more content. The forum got eliminated….on a Big Finish Day no less. Big Finish started producing even more content. The company has got bigger and thus more impersonal. And yet here we old timers are. A lot of us gathered here. Our voices used to be heard, And often addressed and responded to. Now, not so much. So yeah, those gathered here care about Big Finish. Most of us have spent thousands and thousands on Big Finish. We are invested in Big Finish. So in the absence of feedback being acknowledged in a respectful way by Nick, if it is acknowledged at all, we vent here. Anyway. Honestly I see Big Finish has become very corporate in recent timesIts funny how you mention the absence of feedback being acknowledged in a respectful way by Nick given Briggs comments on the podcast regarding Criticism and positive reviews That would be the short version of what I was getting at.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2022 17:47:41 GMT
To be fair, while Nick was always a little sensitive to criticism, this fairly strident & often toxic pushback to anything deemed negative is a relatively recent change. Yeah, I got grumpier as I got older too ... it happens!
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lidar2
Castellan
You know, now that you mention it, I actually do rather like Attack of the Cybermen ...
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Jun 21, 2022 17:59:04 GMT
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Post by lidar2 on Jun 21, 2022 17:59:04 GMT
To be fair, while Nick was always a little sensitive to criticism, this fairly strident & often toxic pushback to anything deemed negative is a relatively recent change. Yeah, I got grumpier as I got older too ... it happens! Off topic. but as I have got older I have observed how nice people tend to get grumpier as they get older, whereas grumpy people tend to mellow.
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Jun 21, 2022 18:35:15 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2022 18:35:15 GMT
Also, I have to mention the criticism surrounding the use of recurring villains and other elements. It is probably best that Big Finish sought out original stuff, but they can’t never use recurring elements again surely. Maybe it’s different for avid Big Finish listeners who buy most of their releases since I don’t.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2022 18:35:31 GMT
Off topic. but as I have got older I have observed how nice people tend to get grumpier as they get older, whereas grumpy people tend to mellow. You would have observed that up there alright, what with the "Chuckle Brothers" and all that... as that almost certainly would never have happened in 1972!
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Jun 21, 2022 19:00:16 GMT
Uncle Nick unfortunately doesn't respect any negativity, so he is happy to get excited at the 9/10 and 10/10 rated reviews given by people who get free stories to review, but then takes exception to a mildly negative review given by somebody who actually spent their hard earned money on a story and probably has more right to mention if something didn't work for them or if the story didn't come across as entertaining.
I think Nick is so connected to every story and loves what Big Finish do it probably all seems personal to him, when a lot of the time the negative feedback isn't meant that way. To be fair, while Nick was always a little sensitive to criticism, this fairly strident & often toxic pushback to anything deemed negative is a relatively recent change. Not that it excuses not taking criticism in stride, but given Nick's involvement on the main show, dude's probably gotten legit nasty things said to him over time, and that'd make anyone a bit twitchy and defensive. Back with Ncuti was announced and Nick congratulated the casting, a bunch of notmydoctor types threw racist abuse at him. Before that, there seemed to be a small backlash to him casting a black lead in Human Frontier (which isn't based on any pre-existing show so why the 'ugh woke casting/but meritocracy' types got mad, well, need I say it?)
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2022 20:49:08 GMT
What makes me laugh with Nick is he can give the negativity out though. I remember him saying The Boy That Time Forgot wasn't a story he liked personally (And Paul Magrs throwing his dummy out of the pram in response!). And it makes me laugh when he calls episodes of the show insubstantial, which is a bit rich from the man who wrote The Conquest of Far, Anti-Genesis and The Dalek Protocol! Podcast with Benji...he would really attack shows or actors he didnt like. There is a reason creatives mostly avoid their own reviews!
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