lidar2
Castellan
You know, now that you mention it, I actually do rather like Attack of the Cybermen ...
Likes: 5,813
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Post by lidar2 on Sept 12, 2022 10:17:38 GMT
BF have been dancing round this for years. The original WD series with Sir John took place after his supposed dark path when he felt bad about it, so far the WDB has not really shown us anything too dark. I wonder how much, if any, of this is down to the BBC withholding approval for some darker stuff as not being on brand? I do kind of fear that the WD's dark deeds might turn out to have been not that dark after all, but he just felt bad about them due to an over-tender conscience. Hopefully not though, that would be a bit of a cop out. My interpretation of the WD was always that he only acted "unbecoming" of the Doctor at the very end of the war, when he annihilated Gallifrey. Which is why he's able to "redeem" himself in The Day of the Doctor. If the War Doctor had always been this dark, violent anti-Doctor the fandom seems to want him to be, then I don't think DotD really works as a coherent narrative any longer. Like... the whole point of the character in DotD and that whole arc is that the WD shouldered the guilt for exterminating the Daleks and Time Lords. That's already pretty dark! He doesn't need to have been going around, I dunno, torturing kittens before then. We already know what his "original sin" was, and it was a doozy. Fair point, you've made me think about it again. What we see of the WD in DotD is after his decision to use the Moment and you make a valid point that it is possible to see that decision alone as the basis of his guilt / self-loathing / war-weariness / call it what you will, rather than any other dark deeds he did when fighting the Time War. Likewise, previous incarnations have done some pretty reprehensible things that we would not expect of the Doctor - e.g Two sending an Ice Warrior fleet into the sun in Seeds of Death, or (the one that always gets me) Three cold-bloodedly murdering Ice Warriors with th e hologram Aggedor in Monster of Peladon. But I think the BF WD series with Sir John implies he is already shouldering a burden of guilt by the time we meet him and has done some sort of dark deeds to prompt that guilt. He had rejected the name of the Doctor long before he got to the point where we was planning to use the Moment - there must have been a reason or reasons for that. I have listened to the JH WD series twice, the last time in 2020, and I'd have to relisten if you want specific quotes to backup what I am saying, but my impression remains that there is more to the WD's guilt than just the decision to use the Moment that we see in DotD. The whole basis of this incarnation, as we see as early as Night of the Doctor is that he is, or is going to be, qualitatively different to the other incarnations in that he is a Warrior not a Healer. IMHO, all that has to mean something, although I agree with you insofar as it should not be torturing kittens. I don't see it as meaning the WD should become a bloodthirsty warrior, more that he a is more ruthless Doctor than the others, prepared to take the difficult decision rather be like the other incarnations and procrastinate until "something turns up" that gets him off the hook by either making the decision for him (e.g. the Brigadier blowing up the Silurians), or a 3rd option presenting itself(e.g The Beast Below). The best comparator for the way I see the WD is maybe Jack Bauer in 24 - a character who is basically a "goodie" but who gives in to the pressure of extreme circumstances to cross some lines and do some pretty questionable things. One of the key tenets of the Doctor's morality has always been that the end never justifies the means - I think the WD is the incarnation that sometimes feels he has to cross that line, but anything he does is still fairly minor compared to using the Moment. Or maybe it is to accept the validity of what Davros says in Journey's End - that the Doctor gets others to do his dirty work for him, and then we can have WD as the incarnation that does his own dirty work. I dunno, if you think of it as a score for how undoctor-ish an action is, with, for example, Four's violence in Seeds of Doom as a 1 and War's planned use of the Moment as a 10. I thnk we need to see a few actions around the 5 or 6 mark from the War Doctor Begins. It's not so much a question of "wanting" the WD to be this way, more of having been led to believe that he was a certain way and having a legitimate expectation that we will see/hear it at some point. I hope we get some sort of payoff to the build-up about the WD. The WD should not become the Master or anything like that, but it will be a cop-out if we get no payoff at all (although I understand BF are limited in what they can do by the need for BBC approval).
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Post by Kestrel on Sept 15, 2022 10:37:43 GMT
Given how adamant the 8th Doctor was about the whole affair, I think his successor would feel an enormous amount of guilt and shame simply for participating in the conflict actively. It is very much a betrayal of everything the 8th Doctor stood for, or tried to stand for. Not to mention that the Doctor has always been very anti-authoritarian and now he's working for the Time Lords at the most authoritarian period of their history.
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Post by mark687 on Oct 21, 2022 16:07:29 GMT
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Post by shallacatop on Oct 21, 2022 16:36:17 GMT
The story details sound great. Looking forward to Robert Valentine penning the three episodes, the Barber Surgeon sounds like an intriguing villain and the Spider Daleks at long last! I hope they’re well realised, as often these variants never seem to do anything more than look distinct on the cover.
And more General is always a good thing; I was disappointed that he didn’t actually feature in Battlegrounds. His comments about the War Doctor have always been that of pure respect, albeit often frustrated, and I can’t wait to hear how that relationship is forged.
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Post by aussiedoctorwhofan on Oct 28, 2022 9:07:26 GMT
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Post by themeddlingmonk on Dec 8, 2022 12:44:29 GMT
The cast list has been updated to include Louise Jameson as Leela
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Post by mark687 on Dec 8, 2022 12:58:34 GMT
BF Tweet
Regards
mark687
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Post by Kestrel on Dec 8, 2022 14:24:32 GMT
The cast list has been updated to include Louise Jameson as Leela Guess I'll have to give this one a listen, then.
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Post by bonehead on Dec 8, 2022 15:13:23 GMT
The cast list has been updated to include Louise Jameson as Leela Guess I'll have to give this one a listen, then. Or as an alternative view - bless her, but does she have to be everywhere?
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Post by sherlock on Dec 8, 2022 15:24:51 GMT
I’m not really sure what could be done with a War Doctor and Leela story that Casualties of War didn’t already do, but guess we’ll see. Guessing this is an overlap of sorts with War Room (weeps as I rewrite the Time War order yet again)
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Post by shallacatop on Dec 8, 2022 15:36:09 GMT
I’m not really sure what could be done with a War Doctor and Leela story that Casualties of War didn’t already do, but guess we’ll see. Guessing this is an overlap of sorts with War Room (weeps as I rewrite the Time War order yet again) I’d assume it is some sort of overlap, as the concept for this War Doctor set seems grand enough to have repercussions elsewhere, and the War Room series does seem to be the Time War “hub” that was missing with the previous Gallifrey iteration. I’d be surprised if they encounter each other or have any interaction, as I’d have thought they’d have made a fuss of that both on the cover and in the news article, trailer, etc.
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lidar2
Castellan
You know, now that you mention it, I actually do rather like Attack of the Cybermen ...
Likes: 5,813
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Post by lidar2 on Dec 8, 2022 16:12:05 GMT
Guess I'll have to give this one a listen, then. Or as an alternative view - bless her, but does she have to be everywhere? I wonder if anyone can get the vaccination against Leela fatigue that David Richardson has obviously had.
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Post by themeddlingmonk on Dec 8, 2022 19:25:15 GMT
Guess I'll have to give this one a listen, then. Or as an alternative view - bless her, but does she have to be everywhere? Tbh I only get Leela fatigue when she’s with Tom Baker. Probably because she’s a better character after she leaves him.
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Post by Kestrel on Dec 9, 2022 1:36:51 GMT
Or as an alternative view - bless her, but does she have to be everywhere? Tbh I only get Leela fatigue when she’s with Tom Baker. Probably because she’s a better character after she leaves him. This. And also I don't really get the comment about her being "everywhere." At least I'm certainly not seeing her very much outside of Gallifrey and the 4DAs.
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Post by The Matt on Dec 9, 2022 6:20:29 GMT
I’m another one who is getting Leela fatigue. She does seem to be shoehorned in a lot. Maybe it’s more Louise fatigue as she seems to be attached to a HELL of a lot of releases. Gotta bump up that pension ha
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Post by bonehead on Dec 9, 2022 9:53:39 GMT
I’m another one who is getting Leela fatigue. She does seem to be shoehorned in a lot. Maybe it’s more Louise fatigue as she seems to be attached to a HELL of a lot of releases. Gotta bump up that pension ha Yes, it's more Louise fatigue for me too. I do love her, and it's my choice to buy releases with her in them - unless they're pre-orders like this was - but she's everywhere.
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lidar2
Castellan
You know, now that you mention it, I actually do rather like Attack of the Cybermen ...
Likes: 5,813
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Post by lidar2 on Dec 9, 2022 9:55:02 GMT
Tbh I only get Leela fatigue when she’s with Tom Baker. Probably because she’s a better character after she leaves him. This. And also I don't really get the comment about her being "everywhere." At least I'm certainly not seeing her very much outside of Gallifrey and the 4DAs. I think the term "everywhere" should be taken as hyperbole rather than literally, but hyperbole that is not without some degree of justification. Personally, I am fine with Leela in 4DAs as that is where she belongs. Leela in Gallifrey is equally fine with me, as again that is where the character belongs at that point in her timelime. Leela in the MRs Zagreus/Time In Office is also fair enough given where she is in her timeline relative to the Dr at those points in his. Leela in Jago & Litefoot is starting to stretch credibility a bit, but given the link to Talons I can accept it at a pinch. However, Leela in a 2nd Dr Companion Chronicle, Leela in Graceless V (aka Wicked Sisters), Leela meeting War/Ten/River, etc. is starting to get a bit ridiculous. BF, usually David Richardson, say quite openly in the Extras that Leela is there "because Louise is so lovely to work with". I have never met Louise, but I have no doubt she is indeed a very lovely person. Likewise I would make no criticism of her professionally as she is one of the UK's finest actresses and it is just her misfortune that she has never been in the right place at the right time to get the sort of exposure and recognition that the likes of Judi Dench or Maggie Smith get - she is easily on a par with them professionally and could go toe to toe with them any day of the week. However, none of this is IMHO a good enough reason to keep shoehorning the character of Leela into stories that there is no logical reason for her to appear in. Personally I think it is a bit unprofessional and amateurish to make creative/artisitc decisions simply on the basis of "Louise is so lovely to work with". My criticism is not of Louise herself in any way, not of the character of Leela per se, but rather of the higher ups at BF who think it is a good idea to crowbar that character of Leela into as many stories as possible.
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Post by themeddlingmonk on Dec 9, 2022 10:37:43 GMT
Tbh I’m willing to bet that her appearance in this set is just a minor cameo, considering Louise is the director and has already been making cameos as random background characters up to this point. And because they’ve only just revealed Leela is in it now, a few weeks before release with no fanfare whereas if it was a major part surely it’d be worthy of a news piece of it’s own and an appearance on the cover. And she’d probably be second billed after Carley if it was a major part.
I wouldn’t be surprised if she just appears at the end, with the General returning to the War Room and informing her of what happened over the course of the set.
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Post by aussiedoctorwhofan on Dec 13, 2022 9:45:02 GMT
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Post by mark687 on Dec 13, 2022 15:42:38 GMT
Regards
mark687
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