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Post by timleschild on Dec 30, 2022 11:40:43 GMT
Well, I do not think you came across as bitchy. I understand what you are getting at, even if I do not know the series you refer to.
I also find it sad when something original and creative and weird is overshadowed or replaced or financially starved or pushed out of the market or gobbled up by an entertainment giant. This is why I have such trepitations about the new connections of Who to Disney. Very apprehensive. To say it in the words of Peter Davison "Nothing wobbles! I love a good wobble!" I do not mind wobbly sets, bubble-wrap aliens (Arc in Space), bad CGI and cheap looking space-ship models.
If the story is great and the characters are well written and if the wobbly set and wonky costumes are crafted with care and love.
For all the shiny effects in Avatar- the whole thing just feels hollow.
Absolutely agree, I'm a bit apprehensive about Disney too. One thing I've loved about Doctor Who and Big Finish is that a lot of people working behind the scenes are fans and have grown up loving the show. I worry that with Disney the element of love and care could diminish. The worry that keeps coming back to me is this; BBC: Thanks for the extra money towards the budget. Disney: Your welcome, now about this cast list, we want Dwanye Johnson to be the next Doctor. BBC: Hang on a minute, that's not part of the deal, you get distribution only. Disney: sure, sure, just a suggestion but perhaps we should discuss how prominently we advertise the show on Disney plus and I think we were a bit hasty with our budget contribution. BBC: Okay, okay, perhaps we can consider Dwanye Johnson. Disney: Excellent, now this list of writers and directors, we've not heard of any of them. We want JJ Abrams. BBC: Okay but make sure you keep pumping money into the budget. JJ Abrams: Hey guys, this TARDIS thing, I'm gonna redesign, from now on it's a massive battle cruiser and this Doctor, I think they should kick ass more often, instead of a sonic screwdriver let's have a sonic bazooka. Fans: This isn't our show anymore, let's be content with the old episodes and count our losses. Casual viewers: This makes no sense and everyone on the Internet says its rubbish, we're not watching. Disney: Hey BBC, the shows tanking, we're out. BBC: The shows ruined, we've no idea how to fix this. Let's put it on hiatus for 20 years. What a weird scenario. How prominenty they advertise it on Disney+ is irrelevant given RTDs gift for promotion. As for them being hasty about their budget contribution, tough luck that's the deal they signed up to & it's legally binding until it comes up for renewal. More scaremongering, & in the wrong thread. |
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Post by glutamodo on Dec 30, 2022 11:51:32 GMT
Back in the day, I saw the first one, even tried it in 3-D... even though it really doesn't work with my lazy eyes. Still it was a story. Whose story though? Thought it was rather a bunch of other peoples' stories thrown into a blender.
I think I would rather go and re-read Alan Dean Foster's 1975 book about a planet-spanning ultra-hostile rain forest: Mid-World (and the sequel, Mid-Flinx) than re-watch Avatar. And in the intervening years, that is exactly all that I have done.
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shutupbanks
Castellan
There’s a horror movie called Alien? That’s really offensive. No wonder everyone keeps invading you.
Likes: 5,661 
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Post by shutupbanks on Dec 30, 2022 12:11:27 GMT
Back in the day, I saw the first one, even tried it in 3-D... even though it really doesn't work with my lazy eyes. Still it was a story. Whose story though? Thought it was rather a bunch of other peoples' stories thrown into a blender. I think I would rather go and re-read Alan Dean Foster's 1975 book about a planet-spanning ultra-hostile rain forest: Mid-World (and the sequel, Mid-Flinx) than re-watch Avatar. And in the intervening years, that is exactly all that I have done. It’s fun to watch, so long as you turn your brain off. But really, when I’m thinking about the usual suspects (Dune, Dances With Wolves and Ferngully, not the actual Usual Suspects) as possible source material, rather like thinking about Hamlet when watching The Lion King, I don’t also expect to be reminded of Anne McCaffrey’s Pern books and Murray Leinster’s A Logic Named Joe at crucial moments of plot. Like I said above, I don’t mind when this happens after the film because I’ve clearly been taken out of myself during it enough to be engrossed in the story. But Cameron is usually good enough to cover this with his own spin on a theme. I mean, Harlan Ellison could have as easily rung the BBC to complain about Day Of The Daleks plagiarising his work rather than Orion about The Terminator. Originality is precious but it isn’t crucial to enjoying some art. |
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Post by martinw8686 on Dec 30, 2022 16:02:24 GMT
Absolutely agree, I'm a bit apprehensive about Disney too. One thing I've loved about Doctor Who and Big Finish is that a lot of people working behind the scenes are fans and have grown up loving the show. I worry that with Disney the element of love and care could diminish. The worry that keeps coming back to me is this; BBC: Thanks for the extra money towards the budget. Disney: Your welcome, now about this cast list, we want Dwanye Johnson to be the next Doctor. BBC: Hang on a minute, that's not part of the deal, you get distribution only. Disney: sure, sure, just a suggestion but perhaps we should discuss how prominently we advertise the show on Disney plus and I think we were a bit hasty with our budget contribution. BBC: Okay, okay, perhaps we can consider Dwanye Johnson. Disney: Excellent, now this list of writers and directors, we've not heard of any of them. We want JJ Abrams. BBC: Okay but make sure you keep pumping money into the budget. JJ Abrams: Hey guys, this TARDIS thing, I'm gonna redesign, from now on it's a massive battle cruiser and this Doctor, I think they should kick ass more often, instead of a sonic screwdriver let's have a sonic bazooka. Fans: This isn't our show anymore, let's be content with the old episodes and count our losses. Casual viewers: This makes no sense and everyone on the Internet says its rubbish, we're not watching. Disney: Hey BBC, the shows tanking, we're out. BBC: The shows ruined, we've no idea how to fix this. Let's put it on hiatus for 20 years. What a weird scenario. How prominenty they advertise it on Disney+ is irrelevant given RTDs gift for promotion. As for them being hasty about their budget contribution, tough luck that's the deal they signed up to & it's legally binding until it comes up for renewal. More scaremongering, & in the wrong thread. You're right, didn't mean to scaremonger, my weird scenario was apart from being on the wrong thread, meant to be an example of the extreme end of my worries and paranoia regarding Disney, I know that what I wrote was way over the top, the Hollywood machine just really frustrates me, leading to my weird roleplay in my head. I know the link is tenuous at best but my concerns with Disney are the same distaste I have for dumb and shallow CGI blockbusters like Avatar and Fast and Furious. It concerns me that as a society the vacuous good looking Avatar's and Disney's of the world rise to the top, and the more intellectual properties often struggle for that kind of recognition. |
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Post by tuigirl on Dec 30, 2022 17:01:53 GMT
What a weird scenario. How prominenty they advertise it on Disney+ is irrelevant given RTDs gift for promotion. As for them being hasty about their budget contribution, tough luck that's the deal they signed up to & it's legally binding until it comes up for renewal. More scaremongering, & in the wrong thread. You're right, didn't mean to scaremonger, my weird scenario was apart from being on the wrong thread, meant to be an example of the extreme end of my worries and paranoia regarding Disney, I know that what I wrote was way over the top, the Hollywood machine just really frustrates me, leading to my weird roleplay in my head. I know the link is tenuous at best but my concerns with Disney are the same distaste I have for dumb and shallow CGI blockbusters like Avatar and Fast and Furious. It concerns me that as a society the vacuous good looking Avatar's and Disney's of the world rise to the top, and the more intellectual properties often struggle for that kind of recognition. I am with you on this |
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Post by timleschild on Dec 30, 2022 18:35:07 GMT
What a weird scenario. How prominenty they advertise it on Disney+ is irrelevant given RTDs gift for promotion. As for them being hasty about their budget contribution, tough luck that's the deal they signed up to & it's legally binding until it comes up for renewal. More scaremongering, & in the wrong thread. You're right, didn't mean to scaremonger, my weird scenario was apart from being on the wrong thread, meant to be an example of the extreme end of my worries and paranoia regarding Disney, I know that what I wrote was way over the top, the Hollywood machine just really frustrates me, leading to my weird roleplay in my head. I know the link is tenuous at best but my concerns with Disney are the same distaste I have for dumb and shallow CGI blockbusters like Avatar and Fast and Furious. It concerns me that as a society the vacuous good looking Avatar's and Disney's of the world rise to the top, and the more intellectual properties often struggle for that kind of recognition. Broad generalisation there, not everything Disney does is vacuous. In fact a lot of it is very good. Mainstream entertainment has always lent towards the simpler blockbuster entertainment. Doctor Who is in fact the closest UK TV comes to that style of blockbuster entertainment. |
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Post by masterdoctor on Dec 30, 2022 20:13:01 GMT
What a weird scenario. How prominenty they advertise it on Disney+ is irrelevant given RTDs gift for promotion. As for them being hasty about their budget contribution, tough luck that's the deal they signed up to & it's legally binding until it comes up for renewal. More scaremongering, & in the wrong thread. You're right, didn't mean to scaremonger, my weird scenario was apart from being on the wrong thread, meant to be an example of the extreme end of my worries and paranoia regarding Disney, I know that what I wrote was way over the top, the Hollywood machine just really frustrates me, leading to my weird roleplay in my head. I know the link is tenuous at best but my concerns with Disney are the same distaste I have for dumb and shallow CGI blockbusters like Avatar and Fast and Furious. It concerns me that as a society the vacuous good looking Avatar's and Disney's of the world rise to the top, and the more intellectual properties often struggle for that kind of recognition. I mean things like Avatar and Fast and Furious are really just modern day equivalents to Star Wars, Indiana Jones and more. Comparing the original Star Wars and Avatar, both are simply just rehashes of other popular stories (Star Wars is really just The Hidden Fortress by Akira Kurosawa and Avatar is Dances with Wolves) in a sci-fi coat of paint. And Star Wars as a franchise very rarely does anything different than the same formula over and over again. Arguably, when Disney came in, Star Wars movies were more often to try new things than before. |
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Post by martinw8686 on Dec 30, 2022 21:52:12 GMT
You're right, didn't mean to scaremonger, my weird scenario was apart from being on the wrong thread, meant to be an example of the extreme end of my worries and paranoia regarding Disney, I know that what I wrote was way over the top, the Hollywood machine just really frustrates me, leading to my weird roleplay in my head. I know the link is tenuous at best but my concerns with Disney are the same distaste I have for dumb and shallow CGI blockbusters like Avatar and Fast and Furious. It concerns me that as a society the vacuous good looking Avatar's and Disney's of the world rise to the top, and the more intellectual properties often struggle for that kind of recognition. Broad generalisation there, not everything Disney does is vacuous. In fact a lot of it is very good. Mainstream entertainment has always lent towards the simpler blockbuster entertainment. Doctor Who is in fact the closest UK TV comes to that style of blockbuster entertainment. If you find a lot of Disney's output good then that's great but I've found it to be mostly about spectacle, the output on Disney plus that's interested me is stuff poached from other sources, for example The Walking Dead and American Horror Story. I'll be honest I don't like blockbusters and big studio's, I'm suspicious of large companies that covet a monopoly over the market. If I'm being objective, movies like Avatar and the various Disney shows and films are popular with mainstream audiences and if their happy far be it from me to tell them otherwise. You're quite right that the BBC/Disney Doctor Who agreement is a discussion for another thread. I won't be watching Avatar 2 as I don't think the first did enough to convince me a sequel will have anything original or interesting to say. In 2009 Avatar 3D was hailed as a revolution in the way we watch films, visually it was a landmark moment. I would like the next landmark moment in cinema to be an intellectual one, perhaps the way we engage with story, new creative outlets that get the viewer thinking, perhaps a film that asks the audience to solve a mystery with a discussion at intermission and various endings filmed for this purpose. Several people could see the film and have an entirely different experience. That's just an idea off the top of my head but my point is, I'm bored of visual spectacle and crave intellectual fulfillment in the media I engage with. |
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Post by martinw8686 on Dec 30, 2022 22:31:27 GMT
You're right, didn't mean to scaremonger, my weird scenario was apart from being on the wrong thread, meant to be an example of the extreme end of my worries and paranoia regarding Disney, I know that what I wrote was way over the top, the Hollywood machine just really frustrates me, leading to my weird roleplay in my head. I know the link is tenuous at best but my concerns with Disney are the same distaste I have for dumb and shallow CGI blockbusters like Avatar and Fast and Furious. It concerns me that as a society the vacuous good looking Avatar's and Disney's of the world rise to the top, and the more intellectual properties often struggle for that kind of recognition. I mean things like Avatar and Fast and Furious are really just modern day equivalents to Star Wars, Indiana Jones and more. Comparing the original Star Wars and Avatar, both are simply just rehashes of other popular stories (Star Wars is really just The Hidden Fortress by Akira Kurosawa and Avatar is Dances with Wolves) in a sci-fi coat of paint. And Star Wars as a franchise very rarely does anything different than the same formula over and over again. Arguably, when Disney came in, Star Wars movies were more often to try new things than before. You make an interesting point, although I'd argue that the Fast and Furious films are far far dumber than Star Wars and Indiana Jones could ever be accused of. Maybe those early blockbusters of the 70s and 80s get a free pass from me because they were my first experiences. I realise that it's hypocritical of me to a certain extent but I can rewatch Empire Strikes Back and Raiders of the lost Ark because these were my earliest experience of mainstream spectacle, I don't need to watch Avatar, Kingdom of the Crystal Skull or The Force Awakens because for me they'll never top my first experience of those images and themes. You're absolutely right about older stories with a new coat of paint. It occurs to me that because I generally don't like blockbusters I'm being harsher on the likes of Avatar and Disney but when it comes to my favourite show I'm less critical, I adore the Hinchcliffe era of classic Doctor Who and that was well known for utilizing classic gothic themes. I enjoy spirited debate but ultimately I guess this thread all comes down to personal taste, although there is another interesting question that comes to mind, how often do sequels surpass the original and which ones manage to offer something different to the original. |
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shutupbanks
Castellan
There’s a horror movie called Alien? That’s really offensive. No wonder everyone keeps invading you.
Likes: 5,661
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Post by shutupbanks on Dec 30, 2022 22:54:29 GMT
What a weird scenario. How prominenty they advertise it on Disney+ is irrelevant given RTDs gift for promotion. As for them being hasty about their budget contribution, tough luck that's the deal they signed up to & it's legally binding until it comes up for renewal. More scaremongering, & in the wrong thread. You're right, didn't mean to scaremonger, my weird scenario was apart from being on the wrong thread, meant to be an example of the extreme end of my worries and paranoia regarding Disney, I know that what I wrote was way over the top, the Hollywood machine just really frustrates me, leading to my weird roleplay in my head. I know the link is tenuous at best but my concerns with Disney are the same distaste I have for dumb and shallow CGI blockbusters like Avatar and Fast and Furious. It concerns me that as a society the vacuous good looking Avatar's and Disney's of the world rise to the top, and the more intellectual properties often struggle for that kind of recognition. This is a never ending concern of people throughout history: novels were derided by serious readers as being frivolous and damaging to mental health when they first became popular. Shakespeare was considered a hack because he focused on the theatre rather than poetry, where the real money and intellectual acclaim was., then movies were considered a poor relation to theatre when they first arrived on the scene, while radio and television were considered places where talent went to die for a long time. As somebody once said, “Time will tell. It usually does.” |
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Post by masterdoctor on Dec 30, 2022 23:05:14 GMT
I mean things like Avatar and Fast and Furious are really just modern day equivalents to Star Wars, Indiana Jones and more. Comparing the original Star Wars and Avatar, both are simply just rehashes of other popular stories (Star Wars is really just The Hidden Fortress by Akira Kurosawa and Avatar is Dances with Wolves) in a sci-fi coat of paint. And Star Wars as a franchise very rarely does anything different than the same formula over and over again. Arguably, when Disney came in, Star Wars movies were more often to try new things than before. You make an interesting point, although I'd argue that the Fast and Furious films are far far dumber than Star Wars and Indiana Jones could ever be accused of. Maybe those early blockbusters of the 70s and 80s get a free pass from me because they were my first experiences. I realise that it's hypocritical of me to a certain extent but I can rewatch Empire Strikes Back and Raiders of the lost Ark because these were my earliest experience of mainstream spectacle, I don't need to watch Avatar, Kingdom of the Crystal Skull or The Force Awakens because for me they'll never top my first experience of those images and themes. You're absolutely right about older stories with a new coat of paint. It occurs to me that because I generally don't like blockbusters I'm being harsher on the likes of Avatar and Disney but when it comes to my favourite show I'm less critical, I adore the Hinchcliffe era of classic Doctor Who and that was well known for utilizing classic gothic themes. I enjoy spirited debate but ultimately I guess this thread all comes down to personal taste, although there is another interesting question that comes to mind, how often do sequels surpass the original and which ones manage to offer something different to the original. Oh I totally understand the nostalgia of it all, and I agree, but I think I didn’t really address my wider point, that these are this generations blockbusters, so I give them just as much leeway as the blockbusters of past. And for all that can be said, Avatar and the sequel are movies that are being made with passion and hard work, so while I don’t enjoy it myself, I don’t have any problems with those who do. |
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Post by martinw8686 on Dec 31, 2022 1:08:20 GMT
Everyone has made such valid points and well thought responses to my nonsense. I'm sure I had good intentions when I started the thread but can't help but think I've just waffled on because I'm nostalgic for the movies and shows of my childhood, also always on the look out for a corporate bad guy. I'm also going through an extended bout of insomnia, I don't think I've slept properly since the beginning of December, so apologies if any of my posts don't make sense, my judgement feels precarious at best. I'll try to think a bit before getting on my soapbox, as I never want to upset or antagonise, it's lovely to have a forum with fellow Whovians.  |
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shutupbanks
Castellan
There’s a horror movie called Alien? That’s really offensive. No wonder everyone keeps invading you.
Likes: 5,661
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Post by shutupbanks on Dec 31, 2022 3:16:40 GMT
Everyone has made such valid points and well thought responses to my nonsense. I'm sure I had good intentions when I started the thread but can't help but think I've just waffled on because I'm nostalgic for the movies and shows of my childhood, also always on the look out for a corporate bad guy. I'm also going through an extended bout of insomnia, I don't think I've slept properly since the beginning of December, so apologies if any of my posts don't make sense, my judgement feels precarious at best. I'll try to think a bit before getting on my soapbox, as I never want to upset or antagonise, it's lovely to have a forum with fellow Whovians. All good, mate. You should try and get some sleep tonight. I don’t think there’s anything going on that will disturb you too much… |
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Post by Kestrel on Dec 31, 2022 6:08:50 GMT
My strongest memory of Avatar is being desperately bored to tears in that theater by the halfway point, and being unable to escape.
Like being stuck in an aisle seat on a trans-Atlantic flight. Absolutely interminably dull.
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Post by timleschild on Dec 31, 2022 15:24:19 GMT
Blockbusters & spectacle has always dominated cinema. But there are plenty of films out there for those that want them, it is just not as easier to find maybe.
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