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Post by acousticwolf on Jan 17, 2016 10:06:49 GMT
More Louise Jameson?? Is she trying to appear in every BF range going? She's trying to outdo Nick for number of credits . Cheers Tony
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Post by acousticwolf on Jan 17, 2016 10:18:16 GMT
I always thought, and reading between the lines from Nick AND Moffat over the past 3 years I think they agree, the reason the Nu-Doctors were so ashamed of War was because of using the moment, ie. one insanely monstrous act rather than the fact he was wicked, ruthless and cruel throughout the incarnation. We're getting War towards the end of his life and to me it sounds like what he's seen and done to leave him jaded and weary, rather than bold and up for the fight, has long since happened. We're getting the latter years when it's all over bar the shouting. I also like Moffat's theory that the Sisterhood gave McGann the elixir he needed rather than not the one he wanted - and it allowed just enough "Doctorness" to remain in him almost like a conscience. I think that's much, much more interesting than a Rogue Doctor. He's like Kylo Ren in Star Wars, temped by light. I said way back that anyone expecting this to push hard boundaries and show the Doctor committing truly terrible, evil acts would no doubt be disappointed and I think Only The Monstrous confirmed that. Indeed, only today Nick spoke about checking with Moffat to make sure things didn't get pushed "too far". I've rewatched The Day of The Doctor this morning and I think you might be right. He definitely wasn't a monster, just weary, jaded and truly believed there was no other option. In some ways I'm disappointed that we probably won't see a Doctor stepping right over the line and I would still have preferred if the three doctors had pressed the button as it would have shown that there was no other choice, and even knowing the consequences Ten and Eleven still came to the same decision. Then again, they did didn't they. It was only Clara who stopped them in the end... Actually that's exactly what I like about the potential of this pairing. The pupil becomes the teacher. Could be great. That could work quite well actually . Cheers Tony
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2016 10:24:10 GMT
That whole sequence is some of my favourite Who ever - from Hurt telling The Moment/Bad Wolf "I'm ready", to the barn, to the "never cruel or cowardly" and of course the "No sir...ALL THIRTEEN" and amazing Tom/Curator part and the "Home...the long way around". Chills een thinking about it. Maybe my favourite third act in Who.
I saw Day Of The Doctor on the big screen and I will never, ever forget it. Just a gorgeous piece on a magical day.
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Post by Sir Wearer of Hats on Jan 17, 2016 10:36:19 GMT
You know what always seems to give me chills? Seeing the TARDIS on Gallifrey, battered but still defiant.
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Post by dalekbuster523finish on Jan 17, 2016 10:52:58 GMT
I always thought, and reading between the lines from Nick AND Moffat over the past 3 years I think they agree, the reason the Nu-Doctors were so ashamed of War was because of using the moment, ie. one insanely monstrous act rather than the fact he was wicked, ruthless and cruel throughout the incarnation. We're getting War towards the end of his life and to me it sounds like what he's seen and done to leave him jaded and weary, rather than bold and up for the fight, has long since happened. We're getting the latter years when it's all over bar the shouting. I also like Moffat's theory that the Sisterhood gave McGann the elixir he needed rather than not the one he wanted - and it allowed just enough "Doctorness" to remain in him almost like a conscience. I think that's much, much more interesting than a Rogue Doctor. He's like Kylo Ren in Star Wars, temped by light. I said way back that anyone expecting this to push hard boundaries and show the Doctor committing truly terrible, evil acts would no doubt be disappointed and I think Only The Monstrous confirmed that. Indeed, only today Nick spoke about checking with Moffat to make sure things didn't get pushed "too far". I would still have preferred if the three doctors had pressed the button as it would have shown that there was no other choice But then 10 and 11 wouldn't have the right to be called 'Doctor' either.
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Post by acousticwolf on Jan 17, 2016 12:04:07 GMT
I would still have preferred if the three doctors had pressed the button as it would have shown that there was no other choice But then 10 and 11 wouldn't have the right to be called 'Doctor' either. Actually they all would because they told War that he was "... the Doctor on the day it wasn’t possible to get it right". And what they did (or were going to do) was "... not out of fear or hatred, it is done because there is no other way" "And it is done in the name of many lives we are failing to save". THAT is the Doctor speaking (all three) and shows that after everything they (all) realised that sometimes even Doctors can't save everyone and sometimes they have to make difficult decisions "for the greater good". At that point they reconciled what War/they did/were going to do. Cheers Tony
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Post by mrfuggleboppins on Jan 17, 2016 15:43:28 GMT
Maybe the most natural of fits between "classic" and "nu" Who. Excellent news. And as a side note, after the month we have had with losing cultural icons, it was really a shock to see how frail Sir John looked in that photo. I hope he continues to win his battle against cancer. The world needs John Hurt in it and a lot more War Doctor stories would be swell as well. The photo was taken months back - he looks much, much healthier now. Here he is this very week at the Revanent premiere. Ooh is he in that? I don't know what you mean. The Doctor Who/Cardiff team have always had a strong relationship with BF. RTD has said he had a huge hand in BF to keeping the license when BBC execs were reviewing all the agreements & licenses connected with the show. I think the door being opened to the current series was just something that took time, rather than a lack or excess of support for the fantastic work BF does from the Cardiff team. Well exactly. RTD may not have written the book on Big Finish but he did write the foreword (literally, for this:) Benjamin Cook! Love his YouTube stuff. But yeah, Big Finish is the sole survivor of the Wilderness Years-That says a lot. Not quite given that Reeltime is back in business now. I saw Day Of The Doctor on the big screen and I will never, ever forget it. Just a gorgeous piece on a magical day. I don't understand how anyone (besides casual viewers) decided to just watch it on TV - it's a beautifully cinematic story, more so than most. Perhaps an older Leela rather than a more youthful one? I know that Gallifrey is meant to keep people young but, y'know, there isn't security in the Time War. What I'm wondering is did they record this story before volumes 2 and 3 - perhaps because of scheduling or John's health (so if he passes away at least we have a Leela story). We also got a Leela story in Seasons of War - so I'm wondering if Big Finish are taking any inspiration from the book for this pairing. Will be interesting to see if it ties in at all with The Catalyst - which shows that Leela has survived the Time War [/quote]
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Post by dalekbuster523finish on Jan 17, 2016 16:35:53 GMT
But then 10 and 11 wouldn't have the right to be called 'Doctor' either. Actually they all would because they told War that he was "... the Doctor on the day it wasn’t possible to get it right". And what they did (or were going to do) was "... not out of fear or hatred, it is done because there is no other way" "And it is done in the name of many lives we are failing to save". THAT is the Doctor speaking (all three) and shows that after everything they (all) realised that sometimes even Doctors can't save everyone and sometimes they have to make difficult decisions "for the greater good". At that point they reconciled what War/they did/were going to do. Cheers Tony They wouldn't remember it though, therefore you'd have War and 10 no longer think of themselves as Doctors as opposed to just War. Plus the whole point of the War Doctor is that what he did wasn't in the name of 'the Doctor'; if you then have 10 and 11 doing the same act, even if they come to terms with the idea the show's logic still dictates it wasn't a Doctor-y action.
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Post by acousticwolf on Jan 17, 2016 16:47:33 GMT
Actually they all would because they told War that he was "... the Doctor on the day it wasn’t possible to get it right". And what they did (or were going to do) was "... not out of fear or hatred, it is done because there is no other way" "And it is done in the name of many lives we are failing to save". THAT is the Doctor speaking (all three) and shows that after everything they (all) realised that sometimes even Doctors can't save everyone and sometimes they have to make difficult decisions "for the greater good". At that point they reconciled what War/they did/were going to do. Cheers Tony They wouldn't remember it though, therefore you'd have War and 10 no longer think of themselves as Doctors as opposed to just War. Plus the whole point of the War Doctor is that what he did wasn't in the name of 'the Doctor'; if you then have 10 and 11 doing the same act, even if they come to terms with the idea the show's logic still dictates it wasn't a Doctor-y action. Eleven would remember it though, because it was happening in his "correct" timeline. The current Doctor always seems to remember, while the others don't. That's why War and 10 didn't and assumed War pressed the button. It was only when it happened to 11 he knew that they tried to save Gallifrey. It was only in The Time of the Doctor that he actually knew it worked. It's Doctor Who... There IS no "show logic" . If you rewatch it, you might come to a different conclusion to the one you have mentioned. Of course you might not... Cheers Tony
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2016 16:49:01 GMT
Actually they all would because they told War that he was "... the Doctor on the day it wasn’t possible to get it right". And what they did (or were going to do) was "... not out of fear or hatred, it is done because there is no other way" "And it is done in the name of many lives we are failing to save". THAT is the Doctor speaking (all three) and shows that after everything they (all) realised that sometimes even Doctors can't save everyone and sometimes they have to make difficult decisions "for the greater good". At that point they reconciled what War/they did/were going to do. Cheers Tony They wouldn't remember it though, therefore you'd have War and 10 no longer think of themselves as Doctors as opposed to just War. Plus the whole point of the War Doctor is that what he did wasn't in the name of 'the Doctor'; if you then have 10 and 11 doing the same act, even if they come to terms with the idea the show's logic still dictates it wasn't a Doctor-y action. Except they wouldn't remember it. Actually 11 remembers it all, as he isn't out of his timeline. 10 wouldn't though, so would not stop calling himself Doctor as he wouldn't remember pressing the button. 11 wouldn't stop calling himself Doctor either as he would remember pressing the button and remember being reconciled to it. Edit: Tony beat me to it
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Post by acousticwolf on Jan 17, 2016 17:11:15 GMT
@brians, at least I know I'm not the only one who thinks this . Cheers Tony
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Post by dalekbuster523finish on Jan 17, 2016 17:15:41 GMT
They wouldn't remember it though, therefore you'd have War and 10 no longer think of themselves as Doctors as opposed to just War. Plus the whole point of the War Doctor is that what he did wasn't in the name of 'the Doctor'; if you then have 10 and 11 doing the same act, even if they come to terms with the idea the show's logic still dictates it wasn't a Doctor-y action. Except they wouldn't remember it. Actually 11 remembers it all, as he isn't out of his timeline. 10 wouldn't though, so would not stop calling himself Doctor as he wouldn't remember pressing the button. 11 wouldn't stop calling himself Doctor either as he would remember pressing the button and remember being reconciled to it. Edit: Tony beat me to it Actually, I think you'll find the 9th Doctor clearly 'remembers' (or thinks he does) blowing up Gallifrey, so if War had actually done it with 10 and 11 War and 10 would know they did it they just wouldn't be able to recall the entire multi-Doctor event. You'd have two Doctors going round not calling themselves the Doctor and one who does remember but even if there were no other option likely wouldn't call himself Doctor either. Having the Doctors press the button would have gone against the entire point IMO.
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Post by dalekbuster523finish on Jan 17, 2016 17:18:25 GMT
They wouldn't remember it though, therefore you'd have War and 10 no longer think of themselves as Doctors as opposed to just War. Plus the whole point of the War Doctor is that what he did wasn't in the name of 'the Doctor'; if you then have 10 and 11 doing the same act, even if they come to terms with the idea the show's logic still dictates it wasn't a Doctor-y action. It's Doctor Who... There IS no "show logic" . It needed to correspond with the logic presented in Name of the Doctor that War's actions were against what the Doctor believes in and followed up again when Clara reminds the Doctors who they are ('Neither cruel or cowardly, never give up, never give in') otherwise the story would never have had a sensible ending.
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Post by acousticwolf on Jan 17, 2016 17:29:29 GMT
Except they wouldn't remember it. Actually 11 remembers it all, as he isn't out of his timeline. 10 wouldn't though, so would not stop calling himself Doctor as he wouldn't remember pressing the button. 11 wouldn't stop calling himself Doctor either as he would remember pressing the button and remember being reconciled to it. Edit: Tony beat me to it Actually, I think you'll find the 9th Doctor clearly 'remembers' (or thinks he does) blowing up Gallifrey, so if War had actually done it with 10 and 11 War and 10 would know they did it they just wouldn't be able to recall the entire multi-Doctor event. You'd have two Doctors going round not calling themselves the Doctor and one who does remember but even if there were no other option likely wouldn't call himself Doctor either. Having the Doctors press the button would have gone against the entire point IMO. The point is that the earlier doctors don't remember events when they are taken out of their time streams (see the 3 doctors and 5 doctors). War regenerated as soon as it was over and so would not know anything except he (thought he had) destroyed everything. That's why the following doctors buried the memories. Anyway I get the feeling we are not going to agree and we have derailed this thread enough. I suggest we move on. So, War and Leela eh... Cheers Tony
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Post by dalekbuster523finish on Jan 17, 2016 18:13:16 GMT
Actually, I think you'll find the 9th Doctor clearly 'remembers' (or thinks he does) blowing up Gallifrey, so if War had actually done it with 10 and 11 War and 10 would know they did it they just wouldn't be able to recall the entire multi-Doctor event. You'd have two Doctors going round not calling themselves the Doctor and one who does remember but even if there were no other option likely wouldn't call himself Doctor either. Having the Doctors press the button would have gone against the entire point IMO. The point is that the earlier doctors don't remember events when they are taken out of their time streams (see the 3 doctors and 5 doctors). War regenerated as soon as it was over and so would not know anything except he (thought he had) destroyed everything. That's why the following doctors buried the memories. Anyway I get the feeling we are not going to agree and we have derailed this thread enough. I suggest we move on. So, War and Leela eh... Cheers Tony That's why in the original post I only mentioned War and 10 no longer calling themselves the Doctor due to their memories being only of destroying Gallifrey and not the entire multi-Doctor event. As I said, I doubt 11 would still call himself the Doctor either because whilst he'd remember the entire event, he would blame himself for the deaths of millions of Gallifreyan children.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2016 18:20:01 GMT
Tony J mentions on his piece on his site Red Rocket Rising: redrocketrising.com/2016/01/notes-from-big-finish-day-8-bfd8/That one area of discussion that came up at BF Day 8 was Ace meeting the War Doctor. Would people like that? I'm not sure myself. I think just because things can, technicaly happen, doesn't mean they should. I'd also think you're trying to make the War range very, very newbie friendly and saying to people who just know Ace as a reasonably normal companion that she's got this arc about going to the Academy etc, might be offputting and smack of trying to get some cross sales in.
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Post by captain jack on Jan 17, 2016 18:27:36 GMT
Tony J mentions on his piece on his site Red Rocket Rising: redrocketrising.com/2016/01/notes-from-big-finish-day-8-bfd8/That one area of discussion that came up at BF Day 8 was Ace meeting the War Doctor. Would people like that? I'm not sure myself. I think just because things can, technicaly happen, doesn't mean they should. I'd also think you're trying to make the War range very, very newbie friendly and saying to people who just know Ace as a reasonably normal companion that she's got this arc about going to the Academy etc, might be offputting and smack of trying to get some cross sales in. I wonder if maybe we will see the War Doctor cameo in a future Gallifrey box set? A bit like Eight did in Rivers box set? Would keep War's range simpler for newbies but still give us big finish fans a story where War can interact with Rommana & Ace?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2016 18:30:02 GMT
Tony J mentions on his piece on his site Red Rocket Rising: redrocketrising.com/2016/01/notes-from-big-finish-day-8-bfd8/That one area of discussion that came up at BF Day 8 was Ace meeting the War Doctor. Would people like that? I'm not sure myself. I think just because things can, technicaly happen, doesn't mean they should. I'd also think you're trying to make the War range very, very newbie friendly and saying to people who just know Ace as a reasonably normal companion that she's got this arc about going to the Academy etc, might be offputting and smack of trying to get some cross sales in. I think Leela's a better fit. I would prefer to see Ace developing in the Gallifrey series and fast forwarding to see her in the War doctor could spoil things.
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Post by dalekbuster523finish on Jan 17, 2016 18:44:21 GMT
Tony J mentions on his piece on his site Red Rocket Rising: redrocketrising.com/2016/01/notes-from-big-finish-day-8-bfd8/That one area of discussion that came up at BF Day 8 was Ace meeting the War Doctor. Would people like that? I'm not sure myself. I think just because things can, technicaly happen, doesn't mean they should. I'd also think you're trying to make the War range very, very newbie friendly and saying to people who just know Ace as a reasonably normal companion that she's got this arc about going to the Academy etc, might be offputting and smack of trying to get some cross sales in. I wonder if maybe we will see the War Doctor cameo in a future Gallifrey box set? A bit like Eight did in Rivers box set? Would keep War's range simpler for newbies but still give us big finish fans a story where War can interact with Rommana & Ace? I think Romana would be fine to appear in War.
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Post by acousticwolf on Jan 17, 2016 19:17:10 GMT
Personally I hope Leela is a one off. I'd generally like War to stay away from past companions and be on his own (or have new ones). Paraphrasing Davey "Just because they can, doesn't mean they should"
Cheers
Tony
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