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Post by christmastrenzalore on Jun 1, 2024 22:01:07 GMT
Well isn't that a fine how-do-you-do?
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Post by shallacatop on Jun 1, 2024 22:06:08 GMT
One thing I forgot to mention is that I wish the Doctor’s speech at the end was the first time we saw this incarnation cry. He’s done it in every episode of the run so far (bar 73 Yards because he literally disappeared!) and whilst I am in favour of a Doctor who wears their heart on their sleeve, especially apt given the theme of the 60th, the regularity does lessen the impact every so slightly when it really counts.
Also 3 episodes on the trot without the TARDIS interior; they’re really not worried about value for money this time round are they!
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Post by timleschild on Jun 1, 2024 22:21:46 GMT
One thing I forgot to mention is that I wish the Doctor’s speech at the end was the first time we saw this incarnation cry. He’s done it in every episode of the run so far (bar 73 Yards because he literally disappeared!) and whilst I am in favour of a Doctor who wears their heart on their sleeve, especially apt given the theme of the 60th, the regularity does lessen the impact every so slightly when it really counts. Also 3 episodes on the trot without the TARDIS interior; they’re really not worried about value for money this time round are they! Yes its become an annoying trope for this Doctor. & we've also had basically two Doctor-lite episodes on the trot. Two is a lot in an 8 episode season. |
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shutupbanks
Castellan
There’s a horror movie called Alien? That’s really offensive. No wonder everyone keeps invading you.
Likes: 5,875 
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Post by shutupbanks on Jun 2, 2024 0:07:45 GMT
Properly brilliant. I picked that something was wrong because the bubble if friends didn’t include anyone non-white, which really stood out after the casting choices of the last 13 seasons. The fact that Lindy was starting to come round to the idea of moving out of her bubble made her decision at the end even more heartbreaking. But she let Ricky die (must all Ricky’s in RTD’s scripts come to a sad end?) so I had a hunch that the writing was on the wall for her. Only niggle: the Doctor is usually quite happy to let people go and be pioneers or to take the long way round to save themselves after the adventure is over (Sunmakers, Underworld, Colony In Space, Paradise Towers) so why was he determined to save them this time? And where did the slugs come from? Was that mentioned? Other than that, just a delight. Ncuti and Millie were fantastic. They are a terrific TARDIS team: the way that Ruby was able to deal with Lindy so much more adroitly that the Doctor was a great character moment.Given the twist of the last 5 mins, more aptly Lindy would allow someone like Ruby in much more easily than The Doctor. Her swiping him away at the start hits harder on reflection.... Yeah, that worked brilliantly in hindsight, but I just loved how Ruby was able to change the way she normally speaks and code-switch to an idiom that Lindy would feel more comfortable with. It speaks of a high emotional intelligence on her part. |
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melkur
Chancellery Guard
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Post by melkur on Jun 2, 2024 0:19:10 GMT
Another decent episode, but I get the feeling that the Daily Mail's going to hate it...  |
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Post by bethhigdon on Jun 2, 2024 0:51:09 GMT
I think that this is the first 5 out 5 story that I've rated for the season. Perfection.
That ending is what sends it from mearly good to great.
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Kestrel
Chancellery Guard
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Post by Kestrel on Jun 2, 2024 6:49:12 GMT
So at the risk of dropping a hot take, or otherwise to expose an unpopular opinion probably best left unvoiced, Doctor Who really is not one of my favorite TV shows. Certainly not in the top 5, probably not in the top 10, either, though I've never felt the need to rank so many. But the Doctor, specifically? Probably my all-time favorite character in fiction. So, ostensibly, I ought to not really care for Doctor-lite episodes, yet... here we are. Two Doctor-lite episodes in a row, and they're both the big, stand-out highlights of the season (so far) for me. That's not supposed to happen. Overall this season has been a bit of a mixed bag for me. The first episode was... not a great start, in my opinion, and the second felt distinctly under-baked. The third and fourth were both stories that approached being great, but fell short (for wildly different reasons). Dot and Bubble is the first episode of this era, hell, of the past several eras (since The Doctor Falls, really) that I basically have no criticism for. It's a brilliant episode, very well-written, acted and directed, with some of the best social commentary the franchise has ever done -- all the while relying exclusively on allegory and insinuation rather than the usual hamhandedness one might expect. I could, and probably will, say more... but that's really the crux of my reaction right there: it's a fantastic episode that reminds me of just how good Doctor Who can be when it's firing on all cylinders. With that out of the way, as per my old habit, please enjoy the following medley of scattered and disorganized thoughts: - DoB deserves props not just for keeping my interest up throughout a Doctor-lite story, but also for keeping my interest up while telling a story from the perspective of a deeply unpleasant person. Truly, if ever there was a heroine that deserved to get eaten by a giant slug monster (which is somehow controlled by an AI), it's Lindy Pepper-Bean.
- Speaking of, is it just me or do RTD's names feel like they align a lot more with Moffat's style? They're all very... fictive, I suppose. Or perhaps the better term might be "fairy-tale-esque."
- Giant slug-monsters looked surprisingly good. I do think it might've been nice to see them moving, though, even if only a little, rather than just loitering about more-or-less motionless.
- In retrospect it's kind of brilliant to make the 15th Doctor's first story dealing w/ race a future story, rather than one set in the past or present.
- And on that note, I suspect that this won't just be the first time the Doctor's racial features are relevant, but the only time. Not sure if that's a good or a bad thing, but if this is the only story we get that focuses on it, at least it was a great story.
- Oooooof that last scene. Ncuti Gatwa is absolutely smacking everything out of the park, huh? Way, way, way out. And that music! So good.
- And I'm especially impressed because, in theory, I don't really like Gatwa's casting as the Doctor -- he's too young, too sexy, too human. I much prefer the weird immortal alien flavor of Doctor. Yet Gatwa's doing such a spectacular job with the role that I find, in practice, I don't really care. It's probably too easy to try and figure out where I'd place him among my list of favorite Doctors, but even this early I can't really imagine him anywhere else but very near the top.
- Hm... is this actually the first purely science-fiction story since The Star Beast?
Given how unsubtle the social media allegory is, it's kind of surprising that the racism is played as subtly as it is. I particularly liked how they made sure to have Lindy treat Ruby and the Doctor differently while doing their video chats -- finding a good balance that has that same veneer of deniability real-world racists so often take advantage of. - If there's any one element of the episode that maybe doesn't work as well as it should, I think it might be the setting. We never really get a good view of the city -- the camera confines us to the bubbles almost as much as the rich kids. And what we do see of the city is... very clean and utopian-coded. It may not have worked in this story, but in a similar story I could see the Bubbles projected a simulated VR environment of the "real world" that simply edits-out undesirable elements -- dirt, grime, graffiti, certain people, etc. A kind of curated simulacrum of reality that only shows people what they want to see. That might've given the tech angle a bit more depth than just the lenses of "video chat" and "tiktok influence" that we see here.
- Well, okay, maybe there's a second thing that I don't think quite works: the evil AI. That's just... a really lazy trope. And justifying with, "well, gee, you people are just so annoying, of course the AI will want to do a genocide," just... isn't sufficient. Especially when the actual murdering isn't being done through any technological means, but through giant slug monsters. It feels like an element tacked on just to back-up the revelation that people are being killed in a particular order, but I don't think that revelation really does anything to improve the story, so I think all of that could be cut without issue. If I were in the writers room for this one, I might suggest making the slug monsters more of a natural phenomena, ideally related (in some way) to society itself -- making them a kind of karmic retribution. Like maybe the powerful computers they use to run their social media/VR tech relies on some kind of dangerous, hazardous powerplants, that are poisoning the nearby forest and mutating the otherwise harmless wildlife into the monsters we see. Really, I'd just want to tighten the focus more on the societal problems.
Hm... for now, I think, that just about covers everything I can think of saying in the immediate aftermath of watching. Very interested to see where the season goes from here, as so far -- for me at least -- each episode has been better than the one that preceded it.
EDIT: And just to make it explicit, yeah, Dot and Bubble gets a full 5 out of 5 from me.
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Post by fitzoliverj on Jun 2, 2024 8:16:03 GMT
Another decent episode, but I get the feeling that the Daily Mail's going to hate it...
 The Daily Mail is a notable defender of the current series, and this episode was about POSH LAZY WORKSHY SO-CALLED 'INFLUENCERS' ARE RACISTS! The Mail is going to *love* it. |
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Post by bethhigdon on Jun 2, 2024 15:49:45 GMT
So at the risk of dropping a hot take, or otherwise to expose an unpopular opinion probably best left unvoiced, Doctor Who really is not one of my favorite TV shows. Certainly not in the top 5, probably not in the top 10, either, though I've never felt the need to rank so many. But the Doctor, specifically? Probably my all-time favorite character in fiction. So, ostensibly, I ought to not really care for Doctor-lite episodes, yet... here we are. Two Doctor-lite episodes in a row, and they're both the big, stand-out highlights of the season (so far) for me. That's not supposed to happen. Overall this season has been a bit of a mixed bag for me. The first episode was... not a great start, in my opinion, and the second felt distinctly under-baked. The third and fourth were both stories that approached being great, but fell short (for wildly different reasons). Dot and Bubble is the first episode of this era, hell, of the past several eras (since The Doctor Falls, really) that I basically have no criticism for. It's a brilliant episode, very well-written, acted and directed, with some of the best social commentary the franchise has ever done -- all the while relying exclusively on allegory and insinuation rather than the usual hamhandedness one might expect. I could, and probably will, say more... but that's really the crux of my reaction right there: it's a fantastic episode that reminds me of just how good Doctor Who can be when it's firing on all cylinders. With that out of the way, as per my old habit, please enjoy the following medley of scattered and disorganized thoughts: - DoB deserves props not just for keeping my interest up throughout a Doctor-lite story, but also for keeping my interest up while telling a story from the perspective of a deeply unpleasant person. Truly, if ever there was a heroine that deserved to get eaten by a giant slug monster (which is somehow controlled by an AI), it's Lindy Pepper-Bean.
- Speaking of, is it just me or do RTD's names feel like they align a lot more with Moffat's style? They're all very... fictive, I suppose. Or perhaps the better term might be "fairy-tale-esque."
- Giant slug-monsters looked surprisingly good. I do think it might've been nice to see them moving, though, even if only a little, rather than just loitering about more-or-less motionless.
- In retrospect it's kind of brilliant to make the 15th Doctor's first story dealing w/ race a future story, rather than one set in the past or present.
- And on that note, I suspect that this won't just be the first time the Doctor's racial features are relevant, but the only time. Not sure if that's a good or a bad thing, but if this is the only story we get that focuses on it, at least it was a great story.
- Oooooof that last scene. Ncuti Gatwa is absolutely smacking everything out of the park, huh? Way, way, way out. And that music! So good.
- And I'm especially impressed because, in theory, I don't really like Gatwa's casting as the Doctor -- he's too young, too sexy, too human. I much prefer the weird immortal alien flavor of Doctor. Yet Gatwa's doing such a spectacular job with the role that I find, in practice, I don't really care. It's probably too easy to try and figure out where I'd place him among my list of favorite Doctors, but even this early I can't really imagine him anywhere else but very near the top.
- Hm... is this actually the first purely science-fiction story since The Star Beast?
Given how unsubtle the social media allegory is, it's kind of surprising that the racism is played as subtly as it is. I particularly liked how they made sure to have Lindy treat Ruby and the Doctor differently while doing their video chats -- finding a good balance that has that same veneer of deniability real-world racists so often take advantage of. - If there's any one element of the episode that maybe doesn't work as well as it should, I think it might be the setting. We never really get a good view of the city -- the camera confines us to the bubbles almost as much as the rich kids. And what we do see of the city is... very clean and utopian-coded. It may not have worked in this story, but in a similar story I could see the Bubbles projected a simulated VR environment of the "real world" that simply edits-out undesirable elements -- dirt, grime, graffiti, certain people, etc. A kind of curated simulacrum of reality that only shows people what they want to see. That might've given the tech angle a bit more depth than just the lenses of "video chat" and "tiktok influence" that we see here.
- Well, okay, maybe there's a second thing that I don't think quite works: the evil AI. That's just... a really lazy trope. And justifying with, "well, gee, you people are just so annoying, of course the AI will want to do a genocide," just... isn't sufficient. Especially when the actual murdering isn't being done through any technological means, but through giant slug monsters. It feels like an element tacked on just to back-up the revelation that people are being killed in a particular order, but I don't think that revelation really does anything to improve the story, so I think all of that could be cut without issue. If I were in the writers room for this one, I might suggest making the slug monsters more of a natural phenomena, ideally related (in some way) to society itself -- making them a kind of karmic retribution. Like maybe the powerful computers they use to run their social media/VR tech relies on some kind of dangerous, hazardous powerplants, that are poisoning the nearby forest and mutating the otherwise harmless wildlife into the monsters we see. Really, I'd just want to tighten the focus more on the societal problems.
Hm... for now, I think, that just about covers everything I can think of saying in the immediate aftermath of watching. Very interested to see where the season goes from here, as so far -- for me at least -- each episode has been better than the one that preceded it.
EDIT: And just to make it explicit, yeah, Dot and Bubble gets a full 5 out of 5 from me.
Having thought about it more and read others posts I can agree with this. The Slug monsters should have been an opressed class rising up against their clueless oppressors by hacking their AI Also laughing at the girl who can't walk without a mobility aid is still abelist regardless of how aweful the person is. But that ending man... It still elevates the episode to a place most DW stories don't reach even when it's other flaws become more obvious. |
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2024 21:19:51 GMT
So at the risk of dropping a hot take, or otherwise to expose an unpopular opinion probably best left unvoiced, Doctor Who really is not one of my favorite TV shows. Certainly not in the top 5, probably not in the top 10, either, though I've never felt the need to rank so many. But the Doctor, specifically? Probably my all-time favorite character in fiction. So, ostensibly, I ought to not really care for Doctor-lite episodes, yet... here we are. Two Doctor-lite episodes in a row, and they're both the big, stand-out highlights of the season (so far) for me. That's not supposed to happen. Overall this season has been a bit of a mixed bag for me. The first episode was... not a great start, in my opinion, and the second felt distinctly under-baked. The third and fourth were both stories that approached being great, but fell short (for wildly different reasons). Dot and Bubble is the first episode of this era, hell, of the past several eras (since The Doctor Falls, really) that I basically have no criticism for. It's a brilliant episode, very well-written, acted and directed, with some of the best social commentary the franchise has ever done -- all the while relying exclusively on allegory and insinuation rather than the usual hamhandedness one might expect. I could, and probably will, say more... but that's really the crux of my reaction right there: it's a fantastic episode that reminds me of just how good Doctor Who can be when it's firing on all cylinders. With that out of the way, as per my old habit, please enjoy the following medley of scattered and disorganized thoughts: - DoB deserves props not just for keeping my interest up throughout a Doctor-lite story, but also for keeping my interest up while telling a story from the perspective of a deeply unpleasant person. Truly, if ever there was a heroine that deserved to get eaten by a giant slug monster (which is somehow controlled by an AI), it's Lindy Pepper-Bean.
- Speaking of, is it just me or do RTD's names feel like they align a lot more with Moffat's style? They're all very... fictive, I suppose. Or perhaps the better term might be "fairy-tale-esque."
- Giant slug-monsters looked surprisingly good. I do think it might've been nice to see them moving, though, even if only a little, rather than just loitering about more-or-less motionless.
- In retrospect it's kind of brilliant to make the 15th Doctor's first story dealing w/ race a future story, rather than one set in the past or present.
- And on that note, I suspect that this won't just be the first time the Doctor's racial features are relevant, but the only time. Not sure if that's a good or a bad thing, but if this is the only story we get that focuses on it, at least it was a great story.
- Oooooof that last scene. Ncuti Gatwa is absolutely smacking everything out of the park, huh? Way, way, way out. And that music! So good.
- And I'm especially impressed because, in theory, I don't really like Gatwa's casting as the Doctor -- he's too young, too sexy, too human. I much prefer the weird immortal alien flavor of Doctor. Yet Gatwa's doing such a spectacular job with the role that I find, in practice, I don't really care. It's probably too easy to try and figure out where I'd place him among my list of favorite Doctors, but even this early I can't really imagine him anywhere else but very near the top.
- Hm... is this actually the first purely science-fiction story since The Star Beast?
Given how unsubtle the social media allegory is, it's kind of surprising that the racism is played as subtly as it is. I particularly liked how they made sure to have Lindy treat Ruby and the Doctor differently while doing their video chats -- finding a good balance that has that same veneer of deniability real-world racists so often take advantage of. - If there's any one element of the episode that maybe doesn't work as well as it should, I think it might be the setting. We never really get a good view of the city -- the camera confines us to the bubbles almost as much as the rich kids. And what we do see of the city is... very clean and utopian-coded. It may not have worked in this story, but in a similar story I could see the Bubbles projected a simulated VR environment of the "real world" that simply edits-out undesirable elements -- dirt, grime, graffiti, certain people, etc. A kind of curated simulacrum of reality that only shows people what they want to see. That might've given the tech angle a bit more depth than just the lenses of "video chat" and "tiktok influence" that we see here.
- Well, okay, maybe there's a second thing that I don't think quite works: the evil AI. That's just... a really lazy trope. And justifying with, "well, gee, you people are just so annoying, of course the AI will want to do a genocide," just... isn't sufficient. Especially when the actual murdering isn't being done through any technological means, but through giant slug monsters. It feels like an element tacked on just to back-up the revelation that people are being killed in a particular order, but I don't think that revelation really does anything to improve the story, so I think all of that could be cut without issue. If I were in the writers room for this one, I might suggest making the slug monsters more of a natural phenomena, ideally related (in some way) to society itself -- making them a kind of karmic retribution. Like maybe the powerful computers they use to run their social media/VR tech relies on some kind of dangerous, hazardous powerplants, that are poisoning the nearby forest and mutating the otherwise harmless wildlife into the monsters we see. Really, I'd just want to tighten the focus more on the societal problems.
Hm... for now, I think, that just about covers everything I can think of saying in the immediate aftermath of watching. Very interested to see where the season goes from here, as so far -- for me at least -- each episode has been better than the one that preceded it.
EDIT: And just to make it explicit, yeah, Dot and Bubble gets a full 5 out of 5 from me.
Having thought about it more and read others posts I can agree with this.
The Slug monsters should have been an opressed class rising up against their clueless oppressors by hacking their AI
Also laughing at the girl who can't walk without a mobility aid is still abelist regardless of how aweful the person is. But that ending man... It still elevates the episode to a place most DW stories don't reach even when it's other flaws become more obvious. Don't think the slugs or AI needed a second more than was given. It wasn't a story about them but a society that would open the doors to them. Willingly for the AI, through ignorance for the slugs. And no-one can seriously call this ableist. I need a chair due to cerebal palsy and did see why Davros was problematic - but these people COULD be able bodied. There was no disability. Calling this ableism trivialises our actual struggles. |
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Post by bethhigdon on Jun 3, 2024 1:33:11 GMT
Having thought about it more and read others posts I can agree with this.
The Slug monsters should have been an opressed class rising up against their clueless oppressors by hacking their AI
Also laughing at the girl who can't walk without a mobility aid is still abelist regardless of how aweful the person is. But that ending man... It still elevates the episode to a place most DW stories don't reach even when it's other flaws become more obvious. Don't think the slugs or AI needed a second more than was given. It wasn't a story about them but a society that would open the doors to them. Willingly for the AI, through ignorance for the slugs. And no-one can seriously call this ableist. I need a chair due to cerebal palsy and did see why Davros was problematic - but these people COULD be able bodied. There was no disability. Calling this ableism trivialises our actual struggles. Tell that to various other disabled people on other websites. Surprisingly not all disabled peopleare the same and view things the same. Go figure. Who am I tell someone else not to get offended by something that offended them? |
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Kestrel
Chancellery Guard
Likes: 2,693
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Post by Kestrel on Jun 3, 2024 4:02:44 GMT
So shortly after posting my thoughts on the episode, I realized there was one thing I'd wanted to talk about but totally forgot to mention -- and, miracle of miracles, I managed to remember it the following day -- so here we are: let's talk about Ricky September. - First and foremost, is it just me, or does he Look kind of like Michael Jackson? I'm real bad with faces, so it may just be me... but I kept thinking it.
- This is twice now in the RTD2 era that we've had characters lip-sync to pop songs... and both times it's been really bad lip-syncing. Why?
- I'm a bit of two minds when it comes to Ricky's characterization. It's weird, isn't it, that he doesn't seem to react to the Doctor the way everyone else does, right? Not so much as a raised eyebrow. If he supposed to be "one of the good ones?" Are we meant to assume that the racism is somehow a product of the social media environment, and that by abstaining from it Ricky was able inculcate himself from his societies' racist attitudes? That kind of... rubs me the wrong way, but I'm not really sure how else to take it.
- Okay, yes, another word would've worked better up there, but I absolutely love saying, "inculcate," and will do so at every possible opportunity, without fail.
- Would making Ricky a bit more of a twat, for lack of a better term, have lessened the impact of Lindy's betrayal? Does he really need to be such a perfect, inoffensive presence? The overall restraint of the writing and its reliance more on implicit exposition than explicit exposition is definitely its biggest strength, but I don't think some small, brief reaction -- a frown, a double-take, a temporarily-furrowed brow -- would've made the ending "twist" any less effective.
- Basically, Ricky doesn't feel like a real character that would exist in this world -- he comes across more as a narrative mechanism who exists solely to allow Lindy to show her true colors, such as they are. But I think that could've worked just as well if he, too, was clearly framed as racist.
And speaking of racists, one last thing I want to heap some praise on Dot and Bubble for doing: when Lindy and her friends meet the Doctor face-to-face, they make their bigotry clear, yes, but they do so using very polite language. It's a great way to highlight that very common (and apparently also very effective) tactic of bigots to hide their bigotry underneath a veneer of civility -- often to enable them to dismiss anyone calling out their bigotry as being uncivil.
The Slug monsters should have been an oppressed class rising up against their clueless oppressors by hacking their AI. I think that might be going too far. I think the slugs would work best as simple animals (otherwise the episode would lose focus), but, yeah, they'd definitely work better if their presence in this society was somehow a result of that society's actions (or inactions). The focus should always be on the obliviousness and unwarranted self-superiority (and self-absorption) on the part of the society's privileged class. And speaking of that society, something that occurred to me much later: the home planet is totally destroyed, right? We're led to believe that everyone was killed, presumably because the AI just found them all that annoying. Or... not? It's one thing for an AI dealing exclusively with vapid rich kids to come to that conclusion, but an entire civilization? Presumably there would've been the full variety of social strata toiling away to support the lifestyles of the super-rich. And, presumably, a deeply oppressed and heavily exploited working class. Yet they, too, are killed without distinction. And since the only justification for this genocide that the Doctor offers is that the AI just found humans too annoying to tolerate... doesn't that imply a kind of radical-centrist both-siderism to this whole societal dynamic? I can't help but imagine, like, blue-collar workers toiling away in menial jobs, using the Bubbles to chat with their families with what little time they have to themselves... but we kind of have to imagine that, because the only segment of this society the episode wants us to consider are the ruling elite. Gotta watch out for those unintended implications -- they'll get ya' every time. EDIT: Just speaking from my own experiences, as someone who's pretty progressive, and who lives in a deeply conservative country... I can't help but think of so many of my peers -- particularly the younger ones -- who openly fantasize about revolution. People who, rightly or wrongly, have lost so much faith in the systems and institutions that govern us that the only future they can see any hope in is one of violent revolution to replace our present, dysfunctional society with something better. But the thing of it is... a society is comprised of far more than the elites, and violence is not a discriminating tool -- the oppressive cannot be overthrown without spilling the blood, too, of the oppressed. Pretending otherwise, as this story does, narrowing your view of an entire society to just the ruling elite, to the exclusion of everyone else, plays into that reductive, juvenile fantasy.
In the context of this story, I don't think that narrow lens is a good thing, but I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing, either -- rather, I simply think it's something to be aware of.Also laughing at the girl who can't walk without a mobility aid is still abelist regardless of how aweful the person is. It's funny, I'm always very reticent to jump into conversations about ableism, despite, you know, being disabled. (EDIT: just to clarify, I'm mostly reticent because most people seem to have much stronger opinions on ableism than I tend to have, and seem much more confident in those opinions than I ever am.) I've had to use mobility aids since I was a teenager. But, for what it's worth, I have two thoughts on this: First, I don't think it's accurate to frame Lindy as disabled. A disability is a kind of identity, and like all identities, it's not something people can decide to be or not be for themselves. Lindy's difficulty walking without the aid of the Dot/Bubble setup is not the result of any physical or mental impairment -- it's the result of her own choice to allow a virtual world to subsume her life and to abandon her own agency in her life. Second, and more importantly, I don't think it's accurate to characterize that scene as ableist even if we do assume that Lindy is disabled... for the simple fact that neither Ruby nor the Doctor make any judgments of Lindy, let alone make light of her condition. They rather accept it, immediately and without comment, and move in. They're both laser-focused on saving her life and none of it really comes across, to me, as something played for laughs. It's a very understated aspect of the story and one that, I think, contributes greatly to the story in much the same way as the absence of one of those "Ulgh, humans are the worst," comments the Doctor often dishes out. It demonstrates restraint on the part of the writer. And while some in the audience may laugh at that scene, I, personally, don't really think the story itself framed it as a humorous scene, nor do I believe it intended that scene to be humorous. But that ending man... It still elevates the episode to a place most DW stories don't reach even when it's other flaws become more obvious. The more I think back on this story, the more I like it. I think it may very well wind up being one of the all-time greats. The ending is just... spectacular. It's really all the harder to parse writing of this quality with the choice to open this season with Space Babies. Above all it really makes me lament the fact that we're only getting 10 episodes this season (though the preceding 4 specials do help, a bit, to mitigate that sting). |
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Post by Chakoteya on Jun 3, 2024 8:41:02 GMT
Duh.
When Lindy asked the AI if she needed to pee, and it congratulated her on not having produced urine for three days - I thought she's a robot, or an AI or something. No way human.
Still convinced I've read/seen/heard something extremely similar during my lifetime...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2024 9:09:30 GMT
Don't think the slugs or AI needed a second more than was given. It wasn't a story about them but a society that would open the doors to them. Willingly for the AI, through ignorance for the slugs. And no-one can seriously call this ableist. I need a chair due to cerebal palsy and did see why Davros was problematic - but these people COULD be able bodied. There was no disability. Calling this ableism trivialises our actual struggles. Tell that to various other disabled people on other websites. Surprisingly not all disabled peopleare the same and view things the same. Go figure. Who am I tell someone else not to get offended by something that offended them? Who, on what sites? Two posters who are disabled have said we didn't even consider it verging on it. But...we should because "other websites" have? Don't dare patronise me by telling me all disabled people think differently. What a nasty, cheap comment you should reflect on. |
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Post by ollychops on Jun 3, 2024 10:12:55 GMT
Really enjoyed the episode itself. I was more mixed the first time but once I rewatched it, I enjoyed it a lot more.
As a disabled person, I didn't really find the "can't walk" thing funny and thought it was a little overplayed but I don't personally see it as ableist - it was more of a comment on the FineTime residents' reliance on technology to do the simplest things for them.
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Post by bethhigdon on Jun 3, 2024 12:29:39 GMT
Tell that to various other disabled people on other websites. Surprisingly not all disabled peopleare the same and view things the same. Go figure. Who am I tell someone else not to get offended by something that offended them? Who, on what sites? Two posters who are disabled have said we didn't even consider it verging on it. But...we should because "other websites" have? Don't dare patronise me by telling me all disabled people think differently. What a nasty, cheap comment you should reflect on. No I said that other people who are disabled have stated they were uncomfortable with it and it is not mine nor your place to try and say that their feelings are wrong.
If you don't wish to be patronized then perhaps you shouldn't suggest that "no one can seriously have a different opinion from you" when there's clearly evidence to the contrary.
I didn't think anything of the joke at first either, but I listened the experiences of those different to myself. I have come across people who are disabled and/or black who had issues with the episode and while I didn't agree with all of their positions they did bring up valid points that are worth considering.
Here's just a small sampling from one website that I have easy access to even two days later, but it illustrates the point that, yes some people did find it seriously offensive, that is something to take in consideration when moving forward, and while you may not agree it its still a part of the discussion.
Some of y'all need to get out of your own bubbles.
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Post by timleschild on Jun 3, 2024 12:47:56 GMT
Who, on what sites? Two posters who are disabled have said we didn't even consider it verging on it. But...we should because "other websites" have? Don't dare patronise me by telling me all disabled people think differently. What a nasty, cheap comment you should reflect on. No I said that other people who are disabled have stated they were uncomfortable with it and it is not mine nor your place to try and say that their feelings are wrong.
If you don't wish to be patronized then perhaps you should learn some manners.
I didn't think anything of the joke at first either, but I listened the experiences of those different myself. I have come across people who are disabled and/or black who had issues with the episode and while I didn't agree with all of their positions they did bring up valid points that are worth considering.
Here's just a small sampling from one website that I have easy access to even two days later, but it illustrates the point that, yes some people did find it seriously offensive, that is something to take in consideration when moving forward, and while you may not agree it still a part of the discussion.
Some of y'all need to get out of your own bubbles.
Yeah disabled people on the BF forum, get out of your own bubbles...good grief. |
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Post by bethhigdon on Jun 3, 2024 12:49:05 GMT
It's funny, I'm always very reticent to jump into conversations about ableism, despite, you know, being disabled. (EDIT: just to clarify, I'm mostly reticent because most people seem to have much stronger opinions on ableism than I tend to have, and seem much more confident in those opinions than I ever am.) I've had to use mobility aids since I was a teenager. But, for what it's worth, I have two thoughts on this: First, I don't think it's accurate to frame Lindy as disabled. A disability is a kind of identity, and like all identities, it's not something people can decide to be or not be for themselves. Lindy's difficulty walking without the aid of the Dot/Bubble setup is not the result of any physical or mental impairment -- it's the result of her own choice to allow a virtual world to subsume her life and to abandon her own agency in her life. Second, and more importantly, I don't think it's accurate to characterize that scene as ableist even if we do assume that Lindy is disabled... for the simple fact that neither Ruby nor the Doctor make any judgments of Lindy, let alone make light of her condition. They rather accept it, immediately and without comment, and move in. They're both laser-focused on saving her life and none of it really comes across, to me, as something played for laughs. It's a very understated aspect of the story and one that, I think, contributes greatly to the story in much the same way as the absence of one of those "Ulgh, humans are the worst," comments the Doctor often dishes out. It demonstrates restraint on the part of the writer. And while some in the audience may laugh at that scene, I, personally, don't really think the story itself framed it as a humorous scene, nor do I believe it intended that scene to be humorous. But how much of choice is it, if your entire society revolves around this one bit of tech and you have known nothing else your entire life?
Ricky was considered 'wild' and rebellious for just turning it off time to time just to sit in his apartment and read, let alone go outside.
Yes, she technically had a choice and could have been another Ricky, but if you never considered that was an option to begin with because no one showed you that it was, then how are you to consider it?
Lindy is not physically disabled but I do think it's safe to say she is mentally disabled to some degree due to the environment she was raised in. Her and the other Fintimers were brought up into a cult that severely limited physical contact and human intimacy. She is touch starved and lacking emotional connections. She has information directly forced into her brain and isn't encouraged to think for herself, not even in what direction she wants to go in. Yes she's an entitled selfish racist bitch but she was taught to to be that way.
One of the reasons I find the episode fascinating is that you can have these layers discussions though. At what point are you a just product of your environment and at what point are you responsible for yourself and your choices. It isn't so clear cut as one would think, especially if you have no other means to see outside of your environment.
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Post by bethhigdon on Jun 3, 2024 12:52:37 GMT
Some of y'all need to get out of your own bubbles.
Yeah disabled people on the BF forum, get out of your own bubbles...good grief. Anyone can trap themselves into a bubble. Don't pretend otherwise. |
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Post by christmastrenzalore on Jun 3, 2024 21:25:42 GMT
- I'm a bit of two minds when it comes to Ricky's characterization. It's weird, isn't it, that he doesn't seem to react to the Doctor the way everyone else does, right? Not so much as a raised eyebrow. If he supposed to be "one of the good ones?" Are we meant to assume that the racism is somehow a product of the social media environment, and that by abstaining from it Ricky was able inculcate himself from his societies' racist attitudes? That kind of... rubs me the wrong way, but I'm not really sure how else to take it.
I think it's more pertaining to echo-chambers. Social media in and of itself isn't bad, the same way newspaper/magazines aren't, but they are a business, that deal in engagement. And it uses alogorithms to cultivate that engaement in any way it can. Whether that's feeding you things you already like, or feeding you misinformation and stoking outrage. And because it's so fast and so always, it reduces the gap between thought and action, making it harder to actually reflect on your own thoughts. So I don't think suggesting that taking a break from social media can be good for you is an unreasonable take. Whether or not Ricky was less racist or not racist, the point is that he was willing look outside of his bubble, and open his mind to other ideas and ways of thinking. |
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The Daily Mail is a notable defender of the current series, and this episode was about POSH LAZY WORKSHY SO-CALLED 'INFLUENCERS' ARE RACISTS! The Mail is going to *love* it.
