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Post by constonks on Feb 5, 2016 1:41:48 GMT
Yeah, that's what I thought too. Although The Two Doctors takes place after World Game as well, so one must overwrite the other in some time-bending way. Personally, I say the Monk diverted the Doctor's timeline a bit during the events of The Black Hole, sending him on the mission a bit earlier than he was supposed to go.
Unless you want to ignore everything non-BF, of course, but Big Finish themselves don't always do that.
As for my "era-shaped-box" comment, I'm fine with having a range that's mostly of-the-time stories, as long as we still get experimentation now and again. An Ordinary Life is actually an example of that, IMO, because it doesn't really feel like 60s Who but it still fits everything around it.
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Post by icecreamdf on Feb 5, 2016 3:24:23 GMT
Thank you. I am so glad that we finally have an official place for The Two Doctors other than 6B.
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Post by dastari on Feb 5, 2016 18:17:30 GMT
If anyone is interested, here's a little factoid - in the wake of the release of The Black Hole, it was suggested there was an error in it. Basically, the intent had been this idea that the production team of 85, when coming up with The Two Doctors said 'oh, hold on, there was that story where the Doctor and Jamie nipped off' and fitted their story around it. But some people thought it was therefore an error to reference the Sontarans, as that meant the production team would have had to have gone to that well twice. Well, as you can hopefully no doubt tell, that's not the case. The Sontaran line went through because we knew this was coming! You could have fun with that sort of meta-narrative. Personally, I can't wait for Big Finish to give us the story that made Malcom Hulke, when writing Frontier in Space, say "Oh, wait a second, the Doctor's encountered mind-probes before, in that one with the alien peace-conference!" The story with the Medusoids is another one that I think that the Early Adventures should explore. I think that's actually Fury from the Deep. I'm the exact opposite. I was very pleased with the first season of Early Adventures, but disappointed with The Black Hole. I realize that Dorney fixed some of the errors that were going to happen such as having the Doctor and Jamie go off to do The Five Doctors before Season 6B and fixed it with the line that they'd go back to do the mission with Dastari later, but it seemed to meta for me. I'd like to keep these as adventures told in black and white. I'd rather have them look for references that the Doctor made to earlier adventures that we've never seen and use that as the basis for many of these Early Adventures, like what they appear to be doing with The Sontarans. I've long thought that a Sontaran story would be great for the Early Adventures, because we know that the Doctor has met them before The Time Warrior. I wish they'd made it earlier than a Sara Kingdom story, though, just to maximize the story potential. Still, it does mean that they could always do a second Doctor Sontaran story. Anyone else notice that we're getting two Ian/Susan stories this time and Vicki is just in one with Steven? Seems like a bit of a shame to me, but still glad to get two William Russell stories. [ I'm not quite sure what I'm supposed to have done with the Black Hole. Whilst everyone can place the Two Doctors where they wish if they can make it work, to my mind it takes place during the Black Hole and not in a 6b. Huh, in the interviews, Guerrier talks about how you had him rewrite a large portion of it. Specifically that Jamie was going to talk about Peri and having seen the 6th Doctor and be familiar with regeneration. In the final version, not only is that taken out, but Jamie and the Doctor specifically say that they left when they saw the Sontarans and that they'll have to go back and finish the mystery with Dastari at some other time, thus implying that The Two Doctors does not happen during The Black Hole, but that the Doctor and Jamie almost went there, saw the Sontarans, and left. Although with you being the editor, if you're not a 6B fan that does explain why we're not getting any 6B stories, which is a shame in my mind.
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Post by icecreamdf on Feb 5, 2016 20:49:31 GMT
You could have fun with that sort of meta-narrative. Personally, I can't wait for Big Finish to give us the story that made Malcom Hulke, when writing Frontier in Space, say "Oh, wait a second, the Doctor's encountered mind-probes before, in that one with the alien peace-conference!" The story with the Medusoids is another one that I think that the Early Adventures should explore. [ I'm not quite sure what I'm supposed to have done with the Black Hole. Whilst everyone can place the Two Doctors where they wish if they can make it work, to my mind it takes place during the Black Hole and not in a 6b. Huh, in the interviews, Guerrier talks about how you had him rewrite a large portion of it. Specifically that Jamie was going to talk about Peri and having seen the 6th Doctor and be familiar with regeneration. In the final version, not only is that taken out, but Jamie and the Doctor specifically say that they left when they saw the Sontarans and that they'll have to go back and finish the mystery with Dastari at some other time, thus implying that The Two Doctors does not happen during The Black Hole, but that the Doctor and Jamie almost went there, saw the Sontarans, and left. Although with you being the editor, if you're not a 6B fan that does explain why we're not getting any 6B stories, which is a shame in my mind. I thought the dialogue implied that The Two Doctors did happen diring this story. If you are right, then that would mean that the Monk pretended to be with the CIA and gave the Doctor a remote so that he could control the TARDIS properly. You The TARDIS was temporarily reconfigured to look like Six's TARDIS, Jamie learned what Time Lords are, and Victoria took a break to study graphology. The Monk sent the Doctor and Jamie to meet Dastari, but the two wimped out when they saw the Sontarans, and everyone's memory was wiped at the end of the story. Then, after The War Games, a real CIA agent gave the Doctor a remote so he could control the TARDIS properly. Jamie and Victoria returned to travelling with the Doctor, but Victoria decided to go back to studying graphology. The TARDIS once again took on the appearance of Six's TARDIS, and the CIA sent the Doctor on the same mission that the Monk sent them on. This time they actually completed their mission, but they lost their memories once again. 6B was already complicated enough, but assuming that both it and The Black Hole happenned means a lot of things have to have happenned twice.
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bobod
Chancellery Guard
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Post by bobod on Feb 5, 2016 22:07:38 GMT
I think you've misunderstood the point he was making.
IIRC he was saying that he asked Simon not to have talk about the Two Doctors NOT because they hadn't just had that adventure BUT because one always presents the Early Adventures as though made at that time. So since the details of the Two Doctors weren't known about in the sixties, one couldn't refer to them in a story 'made' then.
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Post by icecreamdf on Feb 5, 2016 22:35:45 GMT
I think you've misunderstood the point he was making. IIRC he was saying that he asked Simon not to have talk about the Two Doctors NOT because they hadn't just had that adventure BUT because one always presents the Early Adventures as though made at that time. So since the details of the Two Doctors weren't known about in the sixties, one couldn't refer to them in a story 'made' then. Exactly. We're suppossed to imagine that the writers in the 80s were thinking "Okay, we've got Patrick Teoughton and Frazer Hines, so where can we slot this episode in. Well, there was that one time that the Monk pretended to be working for the Time Lords, and sent the Doctor and Jamie off to meet some guy named Dastari. The Doctor was even able to control the TARDIS in that one, so jt kind of works." Obviously that still wouldn't quite make sense. The term "time lord" hadn't actually been coined yet in season five, and the TARDIS console room wouldn't have been able to look like it did in the 80s. Still, it slots in pretty nicely.
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dorney
Big Finish Creative Team
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Post by dorney on Feb 5, 2016 23:45:08 GMT
You could have fun with that sort of meta-narrative. Personally, I can't wait for Big Finish to give us the story that made Malcom Hulke, when writing Frontier in Space, say "Oh, wait a second, the Doctor's encountered mind-probes before, in that one with the alien peace-conference!" The story with the Medusoids is another one that I think that the Early Adventures should explore. I'm not quite sure what I'm supposed to have done with the Black Hole. Whilst everyone can place the Two Doctors where they wish if they can make it work, to my mind it takes place during the Black Hole and not in a 6b. Huh, in the interviews, Guerrier talks about how you had him rewrite a large portion of it. Specifically that Jamie was going to talk about Peri and having seen the 6th Doctor and be familiar with regeneration. In the final version, not only is that taken out, but Jamie and the Doctor specifically say that they left when they saw the Sontarans and that they'll have to go back and finish the mystery with Dastari at some other time, thus implying that The Two Doctors does not happen during The Black Hole, but that the Doctor and Jamie almost went there, saw the Sontarans, and left. Although with you being the editor, if you're not a 6B fan that does explain why we're not getting any 6B stories, which is a shame in my mind. It wasn't really a large portion - it wasn't really more than a handful of words. It was removing explicit references to Six and Peri because they made it feel a bit less sixties. It's worth mentioning that the line you mention, about popping back later, was in the version that explicitly referenced Six and Peri too, rather than a later addition. To me, it's a faux casual response that's about not giving him any info (or admitting they were tricked). I mean, it's quite useful if you want to use it the way you do, and if you want to have a 6b, but I don't think it's intending to imply that The Two Doctors happens later. There were a couple of tweaks I suggested to make it match the start of The Two Doctors more exactly though! I don't have any influence over whether 6b stories are done or not. But I do like it the way we have it presently - if you want a 6b, you can have one. If you don't want one, you don't have to have one. Everyone gets what they want.
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Post by kimalysong on Feb 6, 2016 0:02:20 GMT
This conversation is going a bit over my head but as I have mixed feelings about Season 6B I do agree it's best to leave it up to individual interpretations.
As for Black Hole I LOVED it and hope that isn't the last we hear from Rufus Hound.
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Post by constonks on Feb 6, 2016 20:56:56 GMT
I've said before I wouldn't care about 6B if other stories didn't mention it explicitly, namely Players and World Game. But I too think that line about going back to Dastari is just a flippant remark from the Doctor. I might go full Barthes and change my mind on that in the future, though. (Also, as I thought he might, Eyespider has some thoughts on it here: www.eyespider.freeserve.co.uk/drwho/notes.html#BFEA53)
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Post by Timelord007 on Feb 6, 2016 22:07:19 GMT
This conversation is going a bit over my head but as I have mixed feelings about Season 6B I do agree it's best to leave it up to individual interpretations. As for Black Hole I LOVED it and hope that isn't the last we hear from Rufus Hound. Completely agree, i was concerned he'd go over the top but instead he gave quite a chilling performance as the Monk.
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Post by ulyssessarcher on Feb 7, 2016 18:44:55 GMT
So much for DWM getting 24 hour exclusives before BF run news stories Nice to see to be honest (for those of us who don't get DWM) Cheers Tony I used to get it from my local comic shop, it was about a month late over here, then they closed the doors and I got it for awhile through an online comic book store, and it was a couple of months late, and I quit reading the comics in them, so I just finally dropped it, it only took me about 469 issues or so to drop it...
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Post by dastari on Feb 8, 2016 17:59:28 GMT
The story with the Medusoids is another one that I think that the Early Adventures should explore. Huh, in the interviews, Guerrier talks about how you had him rewrite a large portion of it. Specifically that Jamie was going to talk about Peri and having seen the 6th Doctor and be familiar with regeneration. In the final version, not only is that taken out, but Jamie and the Doctor specifically say that they left when they saw the Sontarans and that they'll have to go back and finish the mystery with Dastari at some other time, thus implying that The Two Doctors does not happen during The Black Hole, but that the Doctor and Jamie almost went there, saw the Sontarans, and left. Although with you being the editor, if you're not a 6B fan that does explain why we're not getting any 6B stories, which is a shame in my mind. It wasn't really a large portion - it wasn't really more than a handful of words. It was removing explicit references to Six and Peri because they made it feel a bit less sixties. It's worth mentioning that the line you mention, about popping back later, was in the version that explicitly referenced Six and Peri too, rather than a later addition. To me, it's a faux casual response that's about not giving him any info (or admitting they were tricked). I mean, it's quite useful if you want to use it the way you do, and if you want to have a 6b, but I don't think it's intending to imply that The Two Doctors happens later. There were a couple of tweaks I suggested to make it match the start of The Two Doctors more exactly though! I don't have any influence over whether 6b stories are done or not. But I do like it the way we have it presently - if you want a 6b, you can have one. If you don't want one, you don't have to have one. Everyone gets what they want. John, I appreciate your taking the time to comment on these threads, but I'm a little confused about your other interpretation of the line. It did seem odd to me that so much of the story seems to be a set up for the Two Doctors and then that line seems to completely nullify that work. At the time I didn't see any other interpretation, but that the Doctor and Jamie left after they saw the Sontarans and would have to go back and do the mission to meet Dastari later. Now, it's been a while since I've listened and maybe it's my poor memory, but could you go into a little more detail about what the alternate explanation means?
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dorney
Big Finish Creative Team
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Post by dorney on Feb 8, 2016 23:35:19 GMT
It wasn't really a large portion - it wasn't really more than a handful of words. It was removing explicit references to Six and Peri because they made it feel a bit less sixties. It's worth mentioning that the line you mention, about popping back later, was in the version that explicitly referenced Six and Peri too, rather than a later addition. To me, it's a faux casual response that's about not giving him any info (or admitting they were tricked). I mean, it's quite useful if you want to use it the way you do, and if you want to have a 6b, but I don't think it's intending to imply that The Two Doctors happens later. There were a couple of tweaks I suggested to make it match the start of The Two Doctors more exactly though! I don't have any influence over whether 6b stories are done or not. But I do like it the way we have it presently - if you want a 6b, you can have one. If you don't want one, you don't have to have one. Everyone gets what they want. John, I appreciate your taking the time to comment on these threads, but I'm a little confused about your other interpretation of the line. It did seem odd to me that so much of the story seems to be a set up for the Two Doctors and then that line seems to completely nullify that work. At the time I didn't see any other interpretation, but that the Doctor and Jamie left after they saw the Sontarans and would have to go back and do the mission to meet Dastari later. Now, it's been a while since I've listened and maybe it's my poor memory, but could you go into a little more detail about what the alternate explanation means? Well, I'll do my best, though it's been a while since I worked on it and I wouldn't especially want to speak for Simon. As I say, the line in question ('So you didn't go to Dastari?' 'He was busy with the Sontarans, we thought we'd pop back later') was present in draft 1, when the story explicitly referenced Jamie meeting Six and Peri etc. so I don't think it was intended to suggest that they hadn't just done the Two Doctors. For me, the Doctor's lying. It's a flippant, faux-casual remark. He doesn't really want to give the Monk any more information than is necessary. Perhaps more importantly, he doesn't want to admit that the Monk tricked him and that he was very nearly outsmarted, then messed up returning. Doing so would put the Monk in a position of power. So he tries to imply he outsmarted the Monk. As I said above, if you want it to mean 2 Docs takes place in a 6b, it makes that easier. But I do think you're taking the line to imply a lot more than I think it actually does.
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Post by dastari on Feb 9, 2016 17:52:07 GMT
John, I appreciate your taking the time to comment on these threads, but I'm a little confused about your other interpretation of the line. It did seem odd to me that so much of the story seems to be a set up for the Two Doctors and then that line seems to completely nullify that work. At the time I didn't see any other interpretation, but that the Doctor and Jamie left after they saw the Sontarans and would have to go back and do the mission to meet Dastari later. Now, it's been a while since I've listened and maybe it's my poor memory, but could you go into a little more detail about what the alternate explanation means? Well, I'll do my best, though it's been a while since I worked on it and I wouldn't especially want to speak for Simon. As I say, the line in question ('So you didn't go to Dastari?' 'He was busy with the Sontarans, we thought we'd pop back later') was present in draft 1, when the story explicitly referenced Jamie meeting Six and Peri etc. so I don't think it was intended to suggest that they hadn't just done the Two Doctors. For me, the Doctor's lying. It's a flippant, faux-casual remark. He doesn't really want to give the Monk any more information than is necessary. Perhaps more importantly, he doesn't want to admit that the Monk tricked him and that he was very nearly outsmarted, then messed up returning. Doing so would put the Monk in a position of power. So he tries to imply he outsmarted the Monk. As I said above, if you want it to mean 2 Docs takes place in a 6b, it makes that easier. But I do think you're taking the line to imply a lot more than I think it actually does.? Ok, I see now what you mean now. Thank you for taking the time to answer.
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