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Post by Tim Bradley on Feb 11, 2016 8:55:58 GMT
Hello everyone!
I've read a very interesting post made on the 'NYSSA OF TRAKEN and SARAH SUTTON FAN GROUP' on Facebook by Johnny Motley.
Here's what Johnny wrote.
Here's my response to this.
What does everyone else think on this. Tim.
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Post by whiskeybrewer on Feb 11, 2016 13:27:56 GMT
I think that makes sense. Especially in certain areas of the Fifth Doctors, stories take place one after the other and in others there are gaps, so that theory does make sense. She traveled for 2-3 years her time with the Doctor and then she was away for a larger period. I think if they give her a break after this next trilogy then it'll give BF time to sort it out maybe
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Post by Sir Wearer of Hats on Feb 11, 2016 20:56:29 GMT
It's tight, but I think you could fit all the five/nyssa/Tegan stories into three years of Nyssa's life (assuming she meets the Doctor at 18). It just means she has very little "downtime" and races from adventure to adventure.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2016 21:10:09 GMT
The main conflict is whether Trakenite and human lifespans are similar. In circular time they are, in cobwebs Nyssa appears younger than 70 and claims this is because they live longer (which the Doctor does not contradict). Perhaps there's something else going on in between to explain the age discrepancy and Nyssa and the Doctor are lying to the rest of the crew.
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Post by constonks on Feb 11, 2016 23:44:18 GMT
If Trakenites live to 150, I'd say that's "similar" to humans.
Also, who says the Doctor knows everything about how long Trakenites live? He might not have seen Modern Traken until he met Tremas and Nyssa - maybe he's thinking about an older generation of Trakenites who didn't last as long.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2016 0:00:56 GMT
We also don't really know the lineage of the Trakenites either beyond what we learn in Primeval. Where did they originally come from? They're definitely not human as we recognise it, but are they a post-human subspecies or something more analogous to the Doctor: a humanoid projection of something altogether unrecognisable?
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Post by randomjc on Feb 12, 2016 0:09:39 GMT
If Trakenites live to 150, I'd say that's "similar" to humans. And of course, for someone whose lifespan spans over a millennium, a 50 odd difference could still count as similar.
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Post by barnabaslives on Feb 12, 2016 1:26:20 GMT
Thanks, Tim (and others) - I think that's a wonderfully reasoned set of points to prove that Big Finish haven't fouled Nyssa's continuity after all. Agreed that mixed feelings can come from the older Nyssa arc - I know why it makes sense continuity-wise, but Sarah sounds so amazingly NOT older in these audios that I think it makes it harder for me to accept the premise of an older Nyssa.
P.S., saw your Science of the Time Lords video the other day, Tim... Bravo, and thank you!
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2016 2:23:55 GMT
Thanks, Tim (and others) - I think that's a wonderfully reasoned set of points to prove that Big Finish haven't fouled Nyssa's continuity after all. Agreed that mixed feelings can come from the older Nyssa arc - I know why it makes sense continuity-wise, but Sarah sounds so amazingly NOT older in these audios that I think it makes it harder for me to accept the premise of an older Nyssa. P.S., saw your Science of the Time Lords video the other day, Tim... Bravo, and thank you! I have a question for people like barnabaslives who felt that the older Nyssa arc didn't quite gel: in addition to Sarah Sutton sounding rather young, is it also because the dynamic between her and the Doctor has changed post- Terminus? To me (and your mileage may vary), the relationship between the two felt quite often like a stepfather and his adoptive daughter with the Fifth Doctor becoming quite close to Nyssa because of the complicated relationship between her own father and the Master. They were linked through adversity and became something of a makeshift family unit in the process whether it was intentional or not. However once you get to Cobwebs, there's a very different dynamic between the Fifth Doctor and Nyssa, which some people feel might not work for the character as he, she or they used to know them.
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Post by elkawho on Feb 12, 2016 4:14:41 GMT
For me, this question brings up a more general question about time for those traveling in the Tardis. How does time pass when you're traveling through it? What is a year? For humans it is 365 Earth days. What is it for a Trakenite? Or a Timelord? Or any of the non-Earth born companions? And even for the Earth-born, how do you measure a day in the Tardis? When you leave Earth in the middle of the day and then land on, say, The Wheel in the middle of their night, spend a number of hours there, spend some time hanging out in the Tardis, and then go to an alien planet and spend some time there? Can anyone accurately keep track of how old they are?
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Post by omega on Feb 12, 2016 4:46:03 GMT
For me, this question brings up a more general question about time for those traveling in the Tardis. How does time pass when you're traveling through it? What is a year? For humans it is 365 Earth days. What is it for a Trakenite? Or a Timelord? Or any of the non-Earth born companions? And even for the Earth-born, how do you measure a day in the Tardis? When you leave Earth in the middle of the day and then land on, say, The Wheel in the middle of their night, spend a number of hours there, spend some time hanging out in the Tardis, and then go to an alien planet and spend some time there? Can anyone accurately keep track of how old they are? That's very true. In Afterlife Ace laments that she doesn't even know how old she is anymore (that comment also ties into how much of her identity is tied to her adventures with the Doctor, but that's another matter). If it's impossible to measure or keep track of an Earth day (24 hours) in the TARDIS, it's hardly going to be easy noting down how much time has passed by a Trakenite's standards. Watches become next to useless because you're always fiddling with the reset button (another Ace line) and individuals also have to factor in how much time they are spending out of the TARDIS (in Marco Polo the TARDIS team spend months on the road with only the Doctor spending any time inside the Ship). Any personal chronometers a companion may carry are easily removed (temporal anachronism, excuse to lock them up etc), and anyone with a thirst for adventure tends not to quibble about things like how much time they've spent travelling in the TARDIS unless in a state of reflection (in The Fourth Wall the Sixth Doctor realises he's indirectly responsible for Flip being in deadly danger and he doesn't even know how old she is, and she's only been onboard less than a day!).
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Post by Sir Wearer of Hats on Feb 12, 2016 4:56:36 GMT
If Trakenites live to 150, I'd say that's "similar" to humans. And of course, for someone whose lifespan spans over a millennium, a 50 odd difference could still count as similar. The Doctor has shown (eleven and twelve in particular) that he really struggles to work out how old other species are.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2016 6:37:37 GMT
And human lifespan varies a lot over time. At present in England I understand it's actually increasing by 1 year every 2 years!
It is quit feasible that by the time of cobwebs, human lifespan is about 200. I haven't listened to circular time yet, but if it has a contemporary setting then the doctor's statement becomes ever harder to reconcile with what we see later.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2016 6:42:58 GMT
For me, this question brings up a more general question about time for those traveling in the Tardis. How does time pass when you're traveling through it? What is a year? For humans it is 365 Earth days. What is it for a Trakenite? Or a Timelord? Or any of the non-Earth born companions? And even for the Earth-born, how do you measure a day in the Tardis? When you leave Earth in the middle of the day and then land on, say, The Wheel in the middle of their night, spend a number of hours there, spend some time hanging out in the Tardis, and then go to an alien planet and spend some time there? Can anyone accurately keep track of how old they are? That's very true. In Afterlife Ace laments that she doesn't even know how old she is anymore (that comment also ties into how much of her identity is tied to her adventures with the Doctor, but that's another matter). If it's impossible to measure or keep track of an Earth day (24 hours) in the TARDIS, it's hardly going to be easy noting down how much time has passed by a Trakenite's standards. Watches become next to useless because you're always fiddling with the reset button (another Ace line) and individuals also have to factor in how much time they are spending out of the TARDIS (in Marco Polo the TARDIS team spend months on the road with only the Doctor spending any time inside the Ship). Any personal chronometers a companion may carry are easily removed (temporal anachronism, excuse to lock them up etc), and anyone with a thirst for adventure tends not to quibble about things like how much time they've spent travelling in the TARDIS unless in a state of reflection (in The Fourth Wall the Sixth Doctor realises he's indirectly responsible for Flip being in deadly danger and he doesn't even know how old she is, and she's only been onboard less than a day!). Oh, hey, I'd completely forgotten about that. A common running theory posited in the books for travel by TARDIS is that its occupants lives are slowed as a side effect of residual energies from travelling in the vortex or an antigenic measure of the ship itself to ensure the safety of its occupants. Perhaps Nyssa's original lifespan was Earth-like until prolonged exposure during her travels caused the exponential growth she experienced later during her period away from the TARDIS on Terminus?
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Post by barnabaslives on Feb 12, 2016 7:00:17 GMT
I have a question for people like barnabaslives who felt that the older Nyssa arc didn't quite gel: in addition to Sarah Sutton sounding rather young, is it also because the dynamic between her and the Doctor has changed post- Terminus? To me (and your mileage may vary), the relationship between the two felt quite often like a stepfather and his adoptive daughter with the Fifth Doctor becoming quite close to Nyssa because of the complicated relationship between her own father and the Master. They were linked through adversity and became something of a makeshift family unit in the process whether it was intentional or not. However once you get to Cobwebs, there's a very different dynamic between the Fifth Doctor and Nyssa, which some people feel might not work for the character as he, she or they used to know them. I think the different Doctor-Nyssa dynamic seemed in order with the premise that 50 years had passed (and that "family" dynamic of a crowded TARDIS probably seemed otherwise preserved, it's just older Nyssa doesn't sound like it's been 50 years since they last met. I'm very glad that Sarah isn't putting on a grandmother voice to sound like a 70 year old Trakenite, but I keep getting taken aback somewhat that she sounds to me just like regular Nyssa. I might get more used to it, though - I've only actually made it through six of the older Nyssa stories so far but I think I probably did already dwell on it less the last several than I did the first few.
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Post by omega on Feb 12, 2016 7:27:52 GMT
That's very true. In Afterlife Ace laments that she doesn't even know how old she is anymore (that comment also ties into how much of her identity is tied to her adventures with the Doctor, but that's another matter). If it's impossible to measure or keep track of an Earth day (24 hours) in the TARDIS, it's hardly going to be easy noting down how much time has passed by a Trakenite's standards. Watches become next to useless because you're always fiddling with the reset button (another Ace line) and individuals also have to factor in how much time they are spending out of the TARDIS (in Marco Polo the TARDIS team spend months on the road with only the Doctor spending any time inside the Ship). Any personal chronometers a companion may carry are easily removed (temporal anachronism, excuse to lock them up etc), and anyone with a thirst for adventure tends not to quibble about things like how much time they've spent travelling in the TARDIS unless in a state of reflection (in The Fourth Wall the Sixth Doctor realises he's indirectly responsible for Flip being in deadly danger and he doesn't even know how old she is, and she's only been onboard less than a day!). Oh, hey, I'd completely forgotten about that. A common running theory posited in the books for travel by TARDIS is that its occupants lives are slowed as a side effect of residual energies from travelling in the vortex or an antigenic measure of the ship itself to ensure the safety of its occupants. Perhaps Nyssa's original lifespan was Earth-like until prolonged exposure during her travels caused the exponential growth she experienced later during her period away from the TARDIS on Terminus? The TARDIS is long known for telepathically translating for anyone who has spent even five minutes in the TARDIS, and the audio Patient Zero establishes that its inhabitants are protected from viral infection, so slowing down the biology of travelers is entirely plausible. In the SJA story Death of the Doctor, Sarah Jane notes that in 2010 Ian and Barbara still look as they did decades ago. Ace seems to have spent years while still looking like a teenager.
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Post by Sir Wearer of Hats on Feb 12, 2016 7:50:44 GMT
I wouldn't take that "have t changed since the sixties" comment to be a sign that they haven't aged. Listen to the Ian audios and it's clear he hasn't changed as a person, just gotten older rather than (say) bitter.
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Post by Tim Bradley on Feb 12, 2016 7:58:48 GMT
Thanks, Tim (and others) - I think that's a wonderfully reasoned set of points to prove that Big Finish haven't fouled Nyssa's continuity after all. Agreed that mixed feelings can come from the older Nyssa arc - I know why it makes sense continuity-wise, but Sarah sounds so amazingly NOT older in these audios that I think it makes it harder for me to accept the premise of an older Nyssa. P.S., saw your Science of the Time Lords video the other day, Tim... Bravo, and thank you! Thanks barnabas! Glad you enjoyed my set of points on what my thoughts are on Nyssa's continuity. To be honest, Sarah doesn't sound older when I met her at conventions. Her voice more or less sounds the same even when she does the 'young' Nyssa stories as well as the old Nyssa stories.
Glad you enjoyed my 'Science of the Time Lords' videos! Hope you'll continue to enjoy more from my blog. Tim.
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Post by Tim Bradley on Feb 12, 2016 8:03:03 GMT
Thanks everyone for their insight into this. I'm amazed by the response to this interesting discussion. I'm still learning new things about 'Doctor Who' and it's good BF can keep coming up with interesting insights into TV characters we haven't discovered before. That's certainly true with Nyssa and the thought that the aging process of Trakenites (in terms of years) is different to humans is quite illuminating. I'll have to read everyone's posts in more detail later on. Great! Thanks! Tim.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2016 9:05:47 GMT
I wouldn't take that "have t changed since the sixties" comment to be a sign that they haven't aged. Listen to the Ian audios and it's clear he hasn't changed as a person, just gotten older rather than (say) bitter. I'd say he's a lot like the Brigadier from the New Adventures who managed to get a second lease of life thanks to the intervention of the Doctor. By 2010, he was a wreck who was suffering from a failing memory (brought about and later restored by the Doctor to save his sanity) and onset infirmity. In fact, as I was reading Happy Endings I got the worrying feeling that he wasn't going to see the end of the novel. Battlefield established that the Seventh Doctor knew when and how he was going to die and towards the end of the book he does indeed perish... But then something wonderful happens. I agree with Sir Wearer of Hats , given that the rather popular and dark fanon was that Barbara died roughly the same time Jacqueline Hill did from cancer caused by her prolonged exposure to radiation on Skaro, it's heartening to see that not only did both of them survive to an elder age, but they're as happy and vibrant now as they were when they left in The Chase. At least, that's what I'd like to believe. Both became lecturers at Cambridge University and had a son, John Alydon Ganatus Chesterton, known by his stage name as "Johnny Chess" to Ace and others who admired him from afar. Plus the bookends to the video cassette tape for The Crusade tend to knock about the ageless theory when you see how he looks in 1993: vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/tardis/images/f/f3/Ian_Chesterton_Returns.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20151205134626
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