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Post by elkawho on Feb 12, 2016 13:28:31 GMT
Since I have now finished the first 2 series of Gallifrey, I thought I'd share some of my thoughts, questions, feelings about it so far and you guys can chime in as well.
Firstly, I really disliked the first series the first time I heard it. I didn't really like the characters and, well, I felt that it was really tedious. I was completely content to never listen to it again, but then all of you love it and there was a sale, so.....I bought the ENTIRE series anyway. Boy, that was a leap of faith that I'm glad I took. I started over again and this time I really loved the first series. I'm not sure what changed in me other than the fact that I hadn't seen many 4th Doctor episodes at the time, didn't really know the characters, and that I've now seen most of the episodes and have listened to A LOT more audios. As of now I've only listened to Series 1 & 2, so some of these thoughts may be totally wrong.
Leela: what was she doing for the many years that she was married to Andred? Was she part of the Capitol's security team even before he disappeared? Narvin, Darkel, Brax all seem to know her and have their own opinions set as the series opens, but we don't really know where she fit in. I actually like to think she spent as much time with the regular Gallifreyans living out of the city as she could, which is why she tries to join their "tribe" when we first see her. And speaking of Andred....
Andred: I thought that his place in the story seemed very unfocused and that the writers were happy to get rid of him. He was just there, then not there, then there again, and then dead. I think they could have done a lot more with that character. And I didn't think he was such a bad guy. He realized there was a conspiracy against Gallifrey and then did the only thing he could to try and stop it. His thoughts regarding the alien students didn't really work for me. He's the first Gallifreyan to marry and live with an alien, but then is opposed to opening up more of his society to aliens. It can be argued the he is the one who really started Gallifrey down this path, but then insults his wife with his attitude. I'm sorry, I had a hard time believing that. And then Leela's reaction to him seems so over the top. She spits in his face in one scene, and then in the next she is ready to MURDER someone for killing him.
General thoughts: Aren't there any laws on Gallifrey? Other than the Laws Of Time? People kill each other, cheat, spy, enter "forbidden" areas (I didn't think that word means the same thing on Gallifrey that it does on Earth. On Gallifrey it means, "Please don't come in here for your own good or else we'll say bad things about you to someone.) Even a President and Inquisitor have to be held accountable to someone, wouldn't you think? I don't know about anyone else, but who felt a little uncomfortable with Mary Tamm being the evil Romana? I just love her Romana so much that it was hard to get my head around it. It was a great way to bring her into the series and she really was terrific. Man, do I wish she was still with us.
Ok, there are just some of my random thoughts on this series. Honestly, I could go on all day.
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Post by Sir Wearer of Hats on Feb 12, 2016 22:23:53 GMT
Arguably, in what is effectively a closed, post-scarcity society of immortals, social faux pas and isolation is probably the worst thing that could happen (think PG Wodehouse on a 10 million+ year old society of Demi-gods) as punishment.
What are you going to do, lock them up for a century of two? Still a drop in the bucket for someone who can live for millennia (remember, the eleventh Doctor was nearly 900 when he died, so if that's a baseline for "how long an individual body lasts" then most Gallifrey based Tome Lords can expect 10 to 11 thousand years of life (which is slightly longer than human recorded history)).
Look at the Doctor, he broke just about all their laws. His punishment was exile. He flagrantly and proudly defied the, and trampled over their laws and the worst they could think of doing to him was sending him off to another planet. They even let him choose (in a roundabout sort of way) where he was being sent.
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Post by constonks on Feb 13, 2016 4:06:00 GMT
They do have some pretty crazy punishments, although Romana got rid of the worst one (the temporal erasure dealt with in Neverland). But exile, forced regeneration and mind wiping are all major things, really. And some would say the Doctor's sentence was commuted *down* to exile, ie. Terrance Dicks, author of World Game.
Although on the flip side, they were willing to give the Master a new regeneration cycle so maybe they've just forgotten how to punish anyone ever.
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Post by elkawho on Feb 13, 2016 4:10:38 GMT
Arguably, in what is effectively a closed, post-scarcity society of immortals, social faux pas and isolation is probably the worst thing that could happen (think PG Wodehouse on a 10 million+ year old society of Demi-gods) as punishment. What are you going to do, lock them up for a century of two? Still a drop in the bucket for someone who can live for millennia (remember, the eleventh Doctor was nearly 900 when he died, so if that's a baseline for "how long an individual body lasts" then most Gallifrey based Tome Lords can expect 10 to 11 thousand years of life (which is slightly longer than human recorded history)). Look at the Doctor, he broke just about all their laws. His punishment was exile. He flagrantly and proudly defied the, and trampled over their laws and the worst they could think of doing to him was sending him off to another planet. They even let him choose (in a roundabout sort of way) where he was being sent. Ahh, yes, but Doom Coalition shows us that there ARE ways to punish a Time Lord. The Eleven's prison sentence is really the first time we see a TL being punished for a violent crime. Granted, this idea wasn't in place when Gallifrey was starting. But even so, I'm assuming that exile is for breaking the Laws Of Time, but prison is for those more mundane crimes like murder and genocide. And who doesn't think that Gallifrey has a a history of taking political prisoner? With the political machinations that we have seen, I'm sure there are more than a few. |
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Post by coffeeaddict on Feb 13, 2016 13:29:42 GMT
I loved the first three series right from the get go - though to be honest, I love political intrigue. Must be why I took politics in university and work for the federal government.
I haven't seen mention of Shada - the Time Lord prison planet yet. Also, it seems likely that the CIA would likely just try to make use of some criminals for their own purposes.
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Post by barnabaslives on Feb 13, 2016 21:43:07 GMT
I hate political intrigue personally but Romana II's passion for the welfare of Gallifrey is so moving I certainly make an exception for the Gallifrey series.
Re: the opening post, I too wasn't terribly contented about how things went with Andred but then again I don't suppose a series about Leela and Andred living happily ever after sounds appealing to many? - and I guess Gallifrey's intrigues don't seem that implausible considering we have laws on Earth as well but that doesn't necessarily stop people from misbehaving?
A little bit disappointed about Mary Tamm's role in Gallifrey as well but after all it is wonderful to hear her in any role, and absolutely fantastic to hear her, Lalla, and Louise in the same production.
Overall, I continue to think that the Gallifrey series is one of the very best things that Big Finish has released.
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Post by elkawho on Feb 14, 2016 2:26:00 GMT
I hate political intrigue personally but Romana II's passion for the welfare of Gallifrey is so moving I certainly make an exception for the Gallifrey series. Re: the opening post, I too wasn't terribly contented about how things went with Andred but then again I don't suppose a series about Leela and Andred living happily ever after sounds appealing to many? - and I guess Gallifrey's intrigues don't seem that implausible considering we have laws on Earth as well but that doesn't necessarily stop people from misbehaving? A little bit disappointed about Mary Tamm's role in Gallifrey as well but after all it is wonderful to hear her in any role, and absolutely fantastic to hear her, Lalla, and Louise in the same production. Overall, I continue to think that the Gallifrey series is one of the very best things that Big Finish has released. I agree with you about Romana and heresies of passion for and responsibility to Gallifrey. It is a great series and I am looking forward to starting Series 3 tomorrow. |
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Post by elkawho on Feb 25, 2016 2:42:15 GMT
I started disc 3.4 today and I am totally confused by the political goings on here. Why is Darkel being allowed to run for President? Why is she even still allowed in the Panopticon, let alone allowed to speak to the High Council. She was arrested as a traitor! There is physical evidence linking her to the terrorist who bombed the Academy! And she is allowed to call for the impeachment of Romana? And I thought Gallifrey was supposed to be the most civilized planet in the galaxy, yet they allow this whole farce to go on with Romana clearly weakened and injured after just saving the planet?! None of this makes any sense.
I get that Darkel is a great antagonist and they want her to keep being the Gallifreyan we love to hate, but the premise for this disc just doesn't work for me. I guess I'm just going to slog through this one to get to the next installment.
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Post by Sir Wearer of Hats on Feb 25, 2016 3:09:40 GMT
The Doctor was accused of murderinb the previous president and could run for president.
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Post by elkawho on Feb 25, 2016 11:31:08 GMT
The Doctor was accused of murderinb the previous president and could run for president. I don't know how this society is supposed to have existed for millions of years. |
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Post by Sir Wearer of Hats on Feb 25, 2016 22:41:14 GMT
The Doctor was accused of murderinb the previous president and could run for president. I don't know how this society is supposed to have existed for millions of years. By enculturating the idea that to do nothing is the right thing to do. the Doctor is a renegade first and foremost because he stood up and said "You're all boring, let's go and look at what's under a few rocks!". In effect, it's a society of Microft Holmeses who are told "don't do X" and because no one has done X they never saw the need to have a law about it. |
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Post by elkawho on Feb 26, 2016 2:26:37 GMT
I don't know how this society is supposed to have existed for millions of years. By enculturating the idea that to do nothing is the right thing to do. the Doctor is a renegade first and foremost because he stood up and said "You're all boring, let's go and look at what's under a few rocks!". In effect, it's a society of Microft Holmeses who are told "don't do X" and because no one has done X they never saw the need to have a law about it. Oh I get that. It's the idea of shaking off the idea of murder and treason so that those that commit those things can still be a part of the government without consequence. How is this not a completely corrupt society on every level? It should have rotted from within millennia ago. Really, how much different is Gallifrey from Skaro? And they call The Doctor an outlaw and renegade! Jeez. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 26, 2016 6:55:10 GMT
By enculturating the idea that to do nothing is the right thing to do. the Doctor is a renegade first and foremost because he stood up and said "You're all boring, let's go and look at what's under a few rocks!". In effect, it's a society of Microft Holmeses who are told "don't do X" and because no one has done X they never saw the need to have a law about it. Oh I get that. It's the idea of shaking off the idea of murder and treason so that those that commit those things can still be a part of the government without consequence. How is this not a completely corrupt society on every level? It should have rotted from within millennia ago. Really, how much different is Gallifrey from Skaro? And they call The Doctor an outlaw and renegade! Jeez. Not that I'm condoning it, but if you look at early Time Lord history all that active participation and meddling came crashing down around them when they got into a war with the Yssgaroth and the Great Vampires. Because of their interference, they unleashed a form of psychotic space that turns entire worlds into twisted, sadistic laboratories of pain. That war was so shocking that it stagnated their society for several millennia, yet by the time of the Doctor (particularly his sixth incarnation) we have Gallifreyan renegades popping up all over the place, so there's this implication that not only are the Time Lords taking a more active role in the current state of the universe (as shown by their interest in the Kartz-Reimer projects, the Archetryx conference and Romana's efforts to open the Academy to alien races), but that there are also outliers who do not agree with the current state of affairs on the homeworld. Don't forget, the High Council was deposed during Trial of a Time Lord, the Shobogans are Gallifreyan outcasts who rejected their training at the Academy and the Doctor was still allowed his freedom following the Omega crisis in The Three Doctors despite no guarantee that he would. Gallifreyan society -- much like any society -- has layers of nuance and development brought about by over ten million years of absolute power. Some good, some bad. Stagnation, corruption and infighting is inevitable and unenviable in any civilisation, particularly one that has sat atop its seat for so long only for a longstanding way of life to be challenged and possibly changed forever by an outsider. Imagine if money suddenly disappeared overnight, the capitalist system was abolished. Even if it's an agreeable situation to be in; if you woke up tomorrow, would you be able to adapt and respond positively to such a colossal change instantaneously without incident? |
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Post by barnabaslives on Feb 27, 2016 7:43:42 GMT
Some good points in this thread on both sides of the discussion. I think the level of Gallifreyan mischief can (and does) become outrageous quickly enough, but I'm not sure it's too implausible.
The Gallifreyans strike me as easily tempted into wrongdoing for the sake of the greater good, and I think particularly so with the both the high-stakes matters they seem to get into and the stuffiness that their sense of duty often seems to take on. They can probably tell themselves easily enough they're entitled to a little corruption because they're Protecting the Very Universe and so forth, and probably actually are.
Also I think a Time Lord's lifespan may carry a risk of developing a jaded and more lawless perspective if one isn't careful, and there's always that part about how having more lives than a cat could make one take even capital punishment less seriously.
And, I guess Gallifrey's idea of punishment itself could be elusive in some stories if it wanted to - or at least, in the TV series we have people detained ad infinitum in a thingamabob and can be back before you know it. Is there actually room in the stories to suspect if we prefer that perhaps Darkel's been soundly disciplined between episodes (not that it's necessarily done a lot of good...) without our being the wiser?
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Post by elkawho on Feb 27, 2016 13:31:31 GMT
I finished 3.4. {Spoiler}
It was great having Brax back to save the day, and I did cheer a little bit at the end. However I'm really not as happy with this volume has I have been with the last 2 series.
One more disc to go. |
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Post by elkawho on Mar 10, 2016 4:26:22 GMT
So I finally finished the 3rd series and I have to say that I didn't really like it. (I'm sure that this surprises no one). I did like the first two series much more. So now I can start the 4th series.
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Post by elkawho on Mar 24, 2016 19:49:20 GMT
Gallifrey 4 was great. I'm now onto the second story of Gallifrey 5. {Spoiler}
Does anyone feel as if Leela has gotten more and more animalistic, violence driven and difficult to reason with? And I know that she has vampire DNA now which may account for the animalistic part, but her increased reliance on violence and threats of death were there even before that happened. She is a very intelligent person and I feel that has taken a back seat to her savagery. It makes her a less interesting character, IMO. I always liked the savage who is desperate to learn other ways and traditions, who is trying to find a way to connect with those around her. But the savage who has to get her way at the point of a knife is not what I'm looking for in that character. I thought she was well past that. |
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Post by elkawho on Mar 25, 2016 3:07:17 GMT
I finished Gallifrey 5. What an ending!!!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2016 7:01:03 GMT
Gallifrey 4 was great. I'm now onto the second story of Gallifrey 5. {Spoiler}
Does anyone feel as if Leela has gotten more and more animalistic, violence driven and difficult to reason with? And I know that she has vampire DNA now which may account for the animalistic part, but her increased reliance on violence and threats of death were there even before that happened. She is a very intelligent person and I feel that has taken a back seat to her savagery. It makes her a less interesting character, IMO. I always liked the savage who is desperate to learn other ways and traditions, who is trying to find a way to connect with those around her. But the savage who has to get her way at the point of a knife is not what I'm looking for in that character. I thought she was well past that. Fantastic performance by Louise isn't it. She never slips back into just Leela from TV. I'm constantly amazed how she makes the character subtley different everywhere she appears. it's why I never suffer Leela fatigue, I really want to see what Louise does with Leela in the Time War. |
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