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Post by icecreamdf on Jul 26, 2017 20:50:36 GMT
Why couldn't they have used the Third Doctor? Because they don't already have a potential third Doctor actor 'on their books', so to speak. Mark Gatiss never looked much like Jon Pertwee and Sean P. has said he'd never play the third Doctor. I'm not aware of any other candidates. Besides, Three already came to terms with his death before he returned to Metebelis III. K'anpo convinced him to face his fears, and he did. His story is over.
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Post by tordred on Jul 26, 2017 21:06:33 GMT
Why couldn't they have used the Third Doctor? Because they don't already have a potential third Doctor actor 'on their books', so to speak. Mark Gatiss never looked much like Jon Pertwee and Sean P. has said he'd never play the third Doctor. I'm not aware of any other candidates. While I wouldn't exactly want 3 to be in this story, I'd say Tim Treloar might work (he certainly has a nearer resemblance than Mark)
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Post by stcoop on Jul 27, 2017 0:23:17 GMT
So is this basically going to be the 21st century equivalent to "Attack Of The Cybermen"? What percentage of people watching will have ever seen "The Tenth Planet" or any 1st Doctor story for that matter?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2017 0:33:06 GMT
So is this basically going to be the 21st century equivalent to "Attack Of The Cybermen"? What percentage of people watching will have ever seen "The Tenth Planet" or any 1st Doctor story for that matter? This is an argument I see brought up a lot with Attack of the Cybermen and, fair enough, it's a very reasonable call. Thing is there though... Attack was probably my third or fourth Doctor Who story ever and having no knowledge of things like The Invasion, The Tenth Planet or The Tombs of the Cybermen, I actually thought it was a pretty good story. Pales in comparison to its predecessors in terms of content (particularly the eight-part Invasion), but it had its own internal consistency and I understood Mondas's place in the story from the conversation between Lytton and the Doctor in the captured TARDIS. People going into it blind might actually have a better time of it than fans do.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2017 10:52:20 GMT
So is this basically going to be the 21st century equivalent to "Attack Of The Cybermen"? What percentage of people watching will have ever seen "The Tenth Planet" or any 1st Doctor story for that matter? This is an argument I see brought up a lot with Attack of the Cybermen and, fair enough, it's a very reasonable call. Thing is there though... Attack was probably my third or fourth Doctor Who story ever and having no knowledge of things like The Invasion, The Tenth Planet or The Tombs of the Cybermen, I actually thought it was a pretty good story. Pales in comparison to its predecessors in terms of content (particularly the eight-part Invasion), but it had its own internal consistency and I understood Mondas's place in the story from the conversation between Lytton and the Doctor in the captured TARDIS. People going into it blind might actually have a better time of it than fans do. For me, too. I had no knowledge of previous Cybermen stories when I first saw Attack, but I thoroughly enjoyed it just the same. I wasn't bothered by references to Tomb of whatever else, I just loved Lytton's gruesome conversion, the rogue Cybermen, and the Sixth Doctor engaging in a full-on gunfight with a squad of the silver blighters. Brilliant! That's not to say I think this Christmas special is in anyway going to be like that. Two things I think it will have in common though, are 1: any continuity references are going to be covered within the story and wil not alienate any casual viewer in as much as people think, and 2: some fans will moan that it is too continuity-heavy and that's why it's viewing figures weren't higher.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2017 11:05:14 GMT
This is an argument I see brought up a lot with Attack of the Cybermen and, fair enough, it's a very reasonable call. Thing is there though... Attack was probably my third or fourth Doctor Who story ever and having no knowledge of things like The Invasion, The Tenth Planet or The Tombs of the Cybermen, I actually thought it was a pretty good story. Pales in comparison to its predecessors in terms of content (particularly the eight-part Invasion), but it had its own internal consistency and I understood Mondas's place in the story from the conversation between Lytton and the Doctor in the captured TARDIS. People going into it blind might actually have a better time of it than fans do. For me, too. I had no knowledge of previous Cybermen stories when I first saw Attack, but I thoroughly enjoyed it just the same. I wasn't bothered by references to Tomb of whatever else, I just loved Lytton's gruesome conversion, the rogue Cybermen, and the Sixth Doctor engaging in a full-on gunfight with a squad of the silver blighters. Brilliant! That's not to say I think this Christmas special is in anyway going to be like that. Two things I think it will have in common though, are 1: any continuity references are going to be covered within the story and wil not alienate any casual viewer in as much as people think, and 2: some fans will moan that it is too continuity-heavy and that's why it's viewing figures weren't higher. Yes, Lytton's torture crystallised the Cybermen for me, it was the final moment that solidified what made them so dangerous. They could infiltrate somewhere as mundane as London without anyone knowing, take control of the Doctor's TARDIS almost effortlessly and they were utterly callous, almost psychopathic in their method of thought. I thought it was thrilling as a kid. Flast was (and still is) my favourite character because I thought she was so brave. Standing up to the Cybermen and refusing to capitulate, even though her defiance ultimately killed her. And it made for a really good introduction to the Sixth Doctor. The unconventional hero. I think that might just be the greatest paradox of being a longtime fan. We're so entrenched in the lore that, rather ironically, when we're given the option between a sequel or an original story, we choose the original story. We're kind of funny like that.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2017 11:10:49 GMT
For me, too. I had no knowledge of previous Cybermen stories when I first saw Attack, but I thoroughly enjoyed it just the same. I wasn't bothered by references to Tomb of whatever else, I just loved Lytton's gruesome conversion, the rogue Cybermen, and the Sixth Doctor engaging in a full-on gunfight with a squad of the silver blighters. Brilliant! That's not to say I think this Christmas special is in anyway going to be like that. Two things I think it will have in common though, are 1: any continuity references are going to be covered within the story and wil not alienate any casual viewer in as much as people think, and 2: some fans will moan that it is too continuity-heavy and that's why it's viewing figures weren't higher. Yes, Lytton's torture crystallised the Cybermen for me, it was the final moment that solidified what made them so dangerous. They could infiltrate somewhere as mundane as London without anyone knowing, take control of the Doctor's TARDIS almost effortlessly and they were utterly callous, almost psychopathic in their method of thought. I thought it was thrilling as a kid. Flast was (and still is) my favourite character because I thought she was so brave. Standing up to the Cybermen and refusing to capitulate, even though her defiance ultimately killed her. And it made for a really good introduction to the Sixth Doctor. The unconventional hero. I think that might just be the greatest paradox of being a longtime fan. We're so entrenched in the lore that, rather ironically, when we're given the option between a sequel or an original story, we choose the original story. We're kind of funny like that. Tremendous memories! One of the reasons I loved the story, and the recent Cyberman adventures, is that they elevate the silver monsters into more than just robotic villains - there is a gruesome story behind their original. They are the original zombies - augmented and 'upgraded' - or rejects like Bates and Stratton. The Attack of the Cybermen reapprasal begins here!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2017 11:24:28 GMT
Yes, Lytton's torture crystallised the Cybermen for me, it was the final moment that solidified what made them so dangerous. They could infiltrate somewhere as mundane as London without anyone knowing, take control of the Doctor's TARDIS almost effortlessly and they were utterly callous, almost psychopathic in their method of thought. I thought it was thrilling as a kid. Flast was (and still is) my favourite character because I thought she was so brave. Standing up to the Cybermen and refusing to capitulate, even though her defiance ultimately killed her. And it made for a really good introduction to the Sixth Doctor. The unconventional hero. I think that might just be the greatest paradox of being a longtime fan. We're so entrenched in the lore that, rather ironically, when we're given the option between a sequel or an original story, we choose the original story. We're kind of funny like that. Tremendous memories! One of the reasons I loved the story, and the recent Cyberman adventures, is that they elevate the silver monsters into more than just robotic villains - there is a gruesome story behind their original. They are the original zombies - augmented and 'upgraded' - or rejects like Bates and Stratton. The Attack of the Cybermen reapprasal begins here! Huzzah! Well, that's something I really enjoyed about Real Time, one of the Cybermen does the cliche "I'm fighting back against the conditioning," feint as a way of getting the Doctor to do what it wants. It preys on his compassion. They don't feel emotion, but they understand how it can be exploited. That's the reading I choose to take away from the eighties Cybermen. And there are some really cool places that you can take cybernisation as well. After all, Tobias Vaughn was converted willingly. How many civilisations have given over their sick and wounded to the Cybermen because they thought they'd be elevating their lives? Really makes you think. Getting back to Attack of the Cybermen though, there are some really strong performances from everyone involved. The Cryons are delightfully alien, Colin and Nicola have got their banter downpat ("A little gratitude wouldn't irretrievably damage my ego." "Come off it, Doctor. No one is more surprised than you we made it through it.") and I really love both the Cyber-Controller redesign and the whole concept of Cyber-Control on Telos. I like to think that's where they launched their Earthshock operation from, using the stolen time vessel. I actually came up with a really interesting story idea the other day. What if Halley's Comet randomly leapt backwards and forwards through time at seventy-five year intervals, every time it reached its apogee. Not just Cybermen revisiting the destruction of Mondas, but Cybermen in the time of Johannes Kepler, the Mongol Invasions of Japan, ancient Babylon, etc. What if that reference to Moonbase in "Part One" was to a group relaying transmissions to another Cyber-Leader or Controller on Halley Base?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2017 14:04:32 GMT
Tremendous memories! One of the reasons I loved the story, and the recent Cyberman adventures, is that they elevate the silver monsters into more than just robotic villains - there is a gruesome story behind their original. They are the original zombies - augmented and 'upgraded' - or rejects like Bates and Stratton. The Attack of the Cybermen reapprasal begins here! Huzzah! Well, that's something I really enjoyed about Real Time, one of the Cybermen does the cliche "I'm fighting back against the conditioning," feint as a way of getting the Doctor to do what it wants. It preys on his compassion. They don't feel emotion, but they understand how it can be exploited. That's the reading I choose to take away from the eighties Cybermen. And there are some really cool places that you can take cybernisation as well. After all, Tobias Vaughn was converted willingly. How many civilisations have given over their sick and wounded to the Cybermen because they thought they'd be elevating their lives? Really makes you think. Getting back to Attack of the Cybermen though, there are some really strong performances from everyone involved. The Cryons are delightfully alien, Colin and Nicola have got their banter downpat ("A little gratitude wouldn't irretrievably damage my ego." "Come off it, Doctor. No one is more surprised than you we made it through it.") and I really love both the Cyber-Controller redesign and the whole concept of Cyber-Control on Telos. I like to think that's where they launched their Earthshock operation from, using the stolen time vessel. I actually came up with a really interesting story idea the other day. What if Halley's Comet randomly leapt backwards and forwards through time at seventy-five year intervals, every time it reached its apogee. Not just Cybermen revisiting the destruction of Mondas, but Cybermen in the time of Johannes Kepler, the Mongol Invasions of Japan, ancient Babylon, etc. What if that reference to Moonbase in "Part One" was to a group relaying transmissions to another Cyber-Leader or Controller on Halley Base? I remember thinking this story was a kind of wake-up call for the very brash Sixth Doctor. It occured to me that his mishandling of Lytton's situation (although hardly his fault), and subsequent self-doubt, was all part of a clever plan of behalf of the writers to slowly smooth out this Doctor's rough edges and involve him in some long-term character 'arc'. Sadly, by the beginning of Vengeance on Varos, he was back to being a plonker again! (Sorry, I've gone completely off topic)
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2017 21:57:38 GMT
Huzzah! Well, that's something I really enjoyed about Real Time, one of the Cybermen does the cliche "I'm fighting back against the conditioning," feint as a way of getting the Doctor to do what it wants. It preys on his compassion. They don't feel emotion, but they understand how it can be exploited. That's the reading I choose to take away from the eighties Cybermen. And there are some really cool places that you can take cybernisation as well. After all, Tobias Vaughn was converted willingly. How many civilisations have given over their sick and wounded to the Cybermen because they thought they'd be elevating their lives? Really makes you think. Getting back to Attack of the Cybermen though, there are some really strong performances from everyone involved. The Cryons are delightfully alien, Colin and Nicola have got their banter downpat ("A little gratitude wouldn't irretrievably damage my ego." "Come off it, Doctor. No one is more surprised than you we made it through it.") and I really love both the Cyber-Controller redesign and the whole concept of Cyber-Control on Telos. I like to think that's where they launched their Earthshock operation from, using the stolen time vessel. I actually came up with a really interesting story idea the other day. What if Halley's Comet randomly leapt backwards and forwards through time at seventy-five year intervals, every time it reached its apogee. Not just Cybermen revisiting the destruction of Mondas, but Cybermen in the time of Johannes Kepler, the Mongol Invasions of Japan, ancient Babylon, etc. What if that reference to Moonbase in "Part One" was to a group relaying transmissions to another Cyber-Leader or Controller on Halley Base? I remember thinking this story was a kind of wake-up call for the very brash Sixth Doctor. It occured to me that his mishandling of Lytton's situation (although hardly his fault), and subsequent self-doubt, was all part of a clever plan of behalf of the writers to slowly smooth out this Doctor's rough edges and involve him in some long-term character 'arc'. Sadly, by the beginning of Vengeance on Varos, he was back to being a plonker again! (Sorry, I've gone completely off topic) S'fine. Christmas special, what's that? It's a season with a few hiccups to it concerning the Doctor's character arc. If it weren't for the little patches of continuity at the start of each story, I'd honestly have:
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2017 22:03:42 GMT
Teling as well that Colin has often named Pip and Jane as a writers who wrote the best for his Doctor.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2017 22:09:32 GMT
Teling as well that Colin has often named Pip and Jane as a writers who wrote the best for his Doctor. Mmm, he's probably at his most Doctorish in The Mark of the Rani. In Varos, he's the knight-errant and in The Two Doctors, almost Simon Templar-esque (which makes me curious about where Holmes got the characterisation from). From memory, Gary Russell was an enormous fan of Pip and Jane's work, he might have tried to bring in some of their approaches for Big Finish's revival of Sixie.
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Post by mrperson on Jul 27, 2017 23:20:48 GMT
All good points, Tim, however my comment is directed at the choice of Doctor in any multi Doctor story to be 8, rather than a comment on this particular story. Why couldn't they have used the Third Doctor? He was lost in the vortex at the end of Planet of the Spiders. Surely, an adventure could have taken place between Metebelis 3 and UNIT HQ! The First Doctor is the most likely to tell him to get over himself and get on with the regeneration in a straight-forward manner. He didn't have patience for a whiff of BS. And as you say, 3 was lost in the vortex.....not landing anywhere (and therefore becomming unlost) until Earth, when he opens the TARDIS door and falls flat on his face, unconscious. Further, given that 10 cheated the change portion of regeneration, 13's next body really should have been the first after Time. I do quite want to see McGann on screen again in the role, but not in this particular story.
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Post by icecreamdf on Jul 28, 2017 0:32:01 GMT
Why couldn't they have used the Third Doctor? He was lost in the vortex at the end of Planet of the Spiders. Surely, an adventure could have taken place between Metebelis 3 and UNIT HQ! The First Doctor is the most likely to tell him to get over himself and get on with the regeneration in a straight-forward manner. He didn't have patience for a whiff of BS. And as you say, 3 was lost in the vortex.....not landing anywhere (and therefore becomming unlost) until Earth, when he opens the TARDIS door and falls flat on his face, unconscious. Further, given that 10 cheated the change portion of regeneration, 13's next body really should have been the first after Time. I do quite want to see McGann on screen again in the role, but not in this particular story. I get the impression that One is just as afraid of regenerating as Twelve is. That makes sense, since One hasn't regenerated before.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2017 1:50:42 GMT
So is this basically going to be the 21st century equivalent to "Attack Of The Cybermen"? What percentage of people watching will have ever seen "The Tenth Planet" or any 1st Doctor story for that matter? I think your forgetting just how epic this is going to be for kids. It's The First Doctor, most of who they've never encountered before. It's mythic. The One before The Others. And I think there's a fair percentage of the casual audience who will be intrested, as well, as well as the joy of this cranky Doctor encountering an equally cranky version of himself!
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shutupbanks
Castellan
There’s a horror movie called Alien? That’s really offensive. No wonder everyone keeps invading you.
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Post by shutupbanks on Jul 28, 2017 10:20:40 GMT
Would it be too much to hope that Mark Gatiss' character is named Gilmore? He would be about the right age to be Chunky's dad.
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Post by paulmorris7777 on Jul 28, 2017 11:31:52 GMT
So is this basically going to be the 21st century equivalent to "Attack Of The Cybermen"? What percentage of people watching will have ever seen "The Tenth Planet" or any 1st Doctor story for that matter? I think your forgetting just how epic this is going to be for kids. It's The First Doctor, most of who they've never encountered before. It's mythic. The One before The Others. And I think there's a fair percentage of the casual audience who will be intrested, as well, as well as the joy of this cranky Doctor encountering an equally cranky version of himself! I expect most kids would say "Whose the old fart with the other old fart?"
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shutupbanks
Castellan
There’s a horror movie called Alien? That’s really offensive. No wonder everyone keeps invading you.
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Post by shutupbanks on Jul 28, 2017 12:01:52 GMT
I think your forgetting just how epic this is going to be for kids. It's The First Doctor, most of who they've never encountered before. It's mythic. The One before The Others. And I think there's a fair percentage of the casual audience who will be intrested, as well, as well as the joy of this cranky Doctor encountering an equally cranky version of himself! I expect most kids would say "Whose the old fart with the other old fart?" Mate, I think I'm speaking for a lot of people on this forum when I say this, but... do you need a hug?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2017 17:53:30 GMT
I expect most kids would say "Whose the old fart with the other old fart?" Mate, I think I'm speaking for a lot of people on this forum when I say this, but... do you need a hug? I think he's right. Moffat is into wish fulfillment now and is throwing things into this final episode that aren't likely to be deemed exciting by anyone other rhan Big Finish forum addicts and DWM buyers.
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Post by Audio Watchdog on Jul 28, 2017 18:13:38 GMT
Mate, I think I'm speaking for a lot of people on this forum when I say this, but... do you need a hug? I think he's right. Moffat is into wish fulfillment now and is throwing things into this final episode that aren't likely to be deemed exciting by anyone other rhan Big Finish forum addicts and DWM buyers. And for those of us who listen to Big Finish, who obsess all over the old episodes and read DWM thank him for being as big a dork as we are.
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