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Post by doctorkernow on May 27, 2019 17:04:20 GMT
Would the omnishambles of Brexit lead us to believe that the UK needs a written constitution? Yes, it does. We need a constitutional committee to examine the strengths and weaknesses of our political system. Then a written constitution needs to be drafted and debated by a crossparty group of MPs and civil servants. Also the status and governance of all four nations of the UK would need to be addressed.
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Post by charlesuirdhein on May 27, 2019 17:18:23 GMT
Would the omnishambles of Brexit lead us to believe that the UK needs a written constitution? Yes, it does. We need a constitutional committee to examine the strengths and weaknesses of our political system. Then a written constitution needs to be drafted and debated by a crossparty group of MPs and civil servants. Also the status and governance of all four nations of the UK would need to be addressed. Well, I'd agree, since I grew up in Ireland, which has a written constitution, but I was wondering what Ukay-ish folk felt about it. Mind you I'm also a fervent constitutional republican and think monarchies should be scrapped too, but that's a whole other argument.
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Post by doctorkernow on May 27, 2019 17:53:19 GMT
Hello again.
While I personally think it's high time we sorted out our constitution,there are two words embedded in our democracy that will probably prevent it: parliamentary sovereignty.
I cannot see our MPs agreeing to be subject to a written constitution.
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lidar2
Castellan
You know, now that you mention it, I actually do rather like Attack of the Cybermen ...
Likes: 5,813
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Post by lidar2 on May 27, 2019 18:42:08 GMT
Would the omnishambles of Brexit lead us to believe that the UK needs a written constitution? To be honest I don't see what difference it would make / have made either way. It wouldn't have prevented the referendum or produced a different result, it wouldn't change the parliamentary arithmetic. Nor do I see how it would help us get out of this mess (Obviously all of the above would depend what was actually in tbe hypothetical written constitution). If anything the flexibility inherent in our unwritten constitution might help us extricate ourselves from this mess.
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Post by charlesuirdhein on May 28, 2019 0:01:21 GMT
Would the omnishambles of Brexit lead us to believe that the UK needs a written constitution? To be honest I don't see what difference it would make / have made either way. It wouldn't have prevented the referendum or produced a different result, it wouldn't change the parliamentary arithmetic. Nor do I see how it would help us get out of this mess (Obviously all of the above would depend what was actually in tbe hypothetical written constitution). If anything the flexibility inherent in our unwritten constitution might help us extricate ourselves from this mess. Well, just tacking on written constitution to the mess we already have wouldn't help at all. However, as I said, I grew up next door, where there is a written constitution, there's also a commission that polices what can be said when on the hustings (or whatever the equivalent for a referendum is), so that the 350 million side of a bus thing would a) not have happened or b) been pulled sharpish with fines because it's a lie. And so one. The sort of thing that would have bankrupt Farage if he was paying for his lies himself. And just citing the last couple of major referenda, there was discussion and consultation for at least a year(!) before anything was placed on the ballot, and if things had broken down in those discussions then the ballot would have been postponed. But this is all beside the point. The flexibility isn't as flexible as you think though, for example when Liz 2 doesn't abdicate for a quiet retirement because she made an oath before god etc. And that's the GOOD version of idiotic tradition.
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Post by charlesuirdhein on May 28, 2019 0:16:04 GMT
Hello again. While I personally think it's high time we sorted out our constitution,there are two words embedded in our democracy that will probably prevent it: parliamentary sovereignty. I cannot see our MPs agreeing to be subject to a written constitution. Again, I grew up in a parliamentary democracy (it is based on Westminster after all!) WITH a written constitution. And Parliament IS sovereign there, but the constitution is the written blueprint of the state, it is the law, and MPs (TDs) are subject to it like any law. While I think others might use your point to argue against it, it's no point at all I feel. MPs in the UK are subject to the law and must obey it, like every other citizen. When the historical precedents known as the unwritten constitution are cited then MPs are subject to those, for they too are laws. It is more correct to say that the UK has an uncodified constitution, since statute law IS the lineaments of the state and its functions. It could happen. It probably won't. Down with the monarchy as an institution.
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lidar2
Castellan
You know, now that you mention it, I actually do rather like Attack of the Cybermen ...
Likes: 5,813
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Post by lidar2 on May 28, 2019 8:28:16 GMT
To be honest I don't see what difference it would make / have made either way. It wouldn't have prevented the referendum or produced a different result, it wouldn't change the parliamentary arithmetic. Nor do I see how it would help us get out of this mess (Obviously all of the above would depend what was actually in tbe hypothetical written constitution). If anything the flexibility inherent in our unwritten constitution might help us extricate ourselves from this mess. Well, just tacking on written constitution to the mess we already have wouldn't help at all. However, as I said, I grew up next door, where there is a written constitution, there's also a commission that polices what can be said when on the hustings (or whatever the equivalent for a referendum is), so that the 350 million side of a bus thing would a) not have happened or b) been pulled sharpish with fines because it's a lie. And so one. The sort of thing that would have bankrupt Farage if he was paying for his lies himself. And just citing the last couple of major referenda, there was discussion and consultation for at least a year(!) before anything was placed on the ballot, and if things had broken down in those discussions then the ballot would have been postponed. But this is all beside the point. The flexibility isn't as flexible as you think though, for example when Liz 2 doesn't abdicate for a quiet retirement because she made an oath before god etc. And that's the GOOD version of idiotic tradition. The UK electoral commission does not have the powers you describe that would be the equivalent of the powers of its Irish counterpart. However, an Act of Parliament passed under the current unwritten constitution could give it those powers - it doesn't follow that we need a written constitution to effect that change. And if such an Act had been passed 5 years ago we maybe wouldn't be where we are now, but again that is not in and of itself an argument for a written constitution.
Most or all of the problems people identify with the current unwritten constitution (hereditary Lords & Monarchy /electoral system / membership of the EU / West Lothian question / delete according to preference) could all be solved without a written constitution if the will was there to solve them and a broad enough consensus exists as to the need to address them and the means of solving them. The other argument sometimes advanced for a written constitution is that the current unwritten one is too easily changed but all written constitutions have a change mechanism of some sort. So once you take away all the problems a written constitution is meant to solve but isn't actually needed to solve, the argument for a written constitution in practice comes down to "we ought to have one because everybody else has one and we don't want to be the odd one out" which I personally don't find a particularly convincing argument.
I'm not sure I understand your point about the queen's non-abdication - the flexibility is there for her to retire if she wanted to, but she chooses not to. If she did want to retire it could be done much more easily than, for instance the recent abdication of the Japanses Emperor (under a written constitution) which took 3 years from when he first expressed his desire to retire in 2016. Her non-retirement is down to her own choice, not any lack of flexibility in the constitution. Given however that she is still mentally and physically capable of fulfilling the role I don't really see the problem and if she became incapable then there are constitutional precedents for setting up a regency from the time of George III.
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Post by charlesuirdhein on May 28, 2019 13:28:54 GMT
Well, just tacking on written constitution to the mess we already have wouldn't help at all. However, as I said, I grew up next door, where there is a written constitution, there's also a commission that polices what can be said when on the hustings (or whatever the equivalent for a referendum is), so that the 350 million side of a bus thing would a) not have happened or b) been pulled sharpish with fines because it's a lie. And so one. The sort of thing that would have bankrupt Farage if he was paying for his lies himself. And just citing the last couple of major referenda, there was discussion and consultation for at least a year(!) before anything was placed on the ballot, and if things had broken down in those discussions then the ballot would have been postponed. But this is all beside the point. The flexibility isn't as flexible as you think though, for example when Liz 2 doesn't abdicate for a quiet retirement because she made an oath before god etc. And that's the GOOD version of idiotic tradition. The UK electoral commission does not have the powers you describe that would be the equivalent of the powers of its Irish counterpart. However, an Act of Parliament passed under the current unwritten constitution could give it those powers - it doesn't follow that we need a written constitution to effect that change. And if such an Act had been passed 5 years ago we maybe wouldn't be where we are now, but again that is not in and of itself an argument for a written constitution.
Most or all of the problems people identify with the current unwritten constitution (hereditary Lords & Monarchy /electoral system / membership of the EU / West Lothian question / delete according to preference) could all be solved without a written constitution if the will was there to solve them and a broad enough consensus exists as to the need to address them and the means of solving them. The other argument sometimes advanced for a written constitution is that the current unwritten one is too easily changed but all written constitutions have a change mechanism of some sort. So once you take away all the problems a written constitution is meant to solve but isn't actually needed to solve, the argument for a written constitution in practice comes down to "we ought to have one because everybody else has one and we don't want to be the odd one out" which I personally don't find a particularly convincing argument.
I'm not sure I understand your point about the queen's non-abdication - the flexibility is there for her to retire if she wanted to, but she chooses not to. If she did want to retire it could be done much more easily than, for instance the recent abdication of the Japanses Emperor (under a written constitution) which took 3 years from when he first expressed his desire to retire in 2016. Her non-retirement is down to her own choice, not any lack of flexibility in the constitution. Given however that she is still mentally and physically capable of fulfilling the role I don't really see the problem and if she became incapable then there are constitutional precedents for setting up a regency from the time of George III.
I don't mind if Liz 2 abdicates or not, my point is simply that with a written constitution things are mostly laid out, and one person simply deciding to keep on keeping on can be stopped. Bad analogy perhaps. And yes, if a law was passed to give the electoral commission the same powers you don't need to codify the constitution, however when you DO codify a constitution that body and the requisite powers are instantly needed. That wasn't so much an argument for a written constitution but stating that sometimes if you don't have one you don't see other stuff you're missing.
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Post by doctorkernow on Jun 1, 2019 9:26:54 GMT
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Post by anothermanicmondas on Jun 2, 2019 12:57:19 GMT
I have my By-election this week (after our previous MP got sent to prison and sacked for lying) 15 candidates (roughly triple the normal) several of which are single-issue pro- or anti- brexit
It's also the first time I've had an Official Monster Raving Loony party candidate standing Previously, the only monsters or raving loonies have been BNP (British Nazi Party) so I made a point of not voting for them
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Post by doctorkernow on Jun 2, 2019 23:48:19 GMT
Hello again.
Ah yes, of course Anothermanicmondas, an historic by-election. Is it the first time an MP's been dismissed by the electorate? I was talking to my teenager about the elections and I mentioned the Monster Raving Loohy Party but thought they'd ceased to exist.
I always liked the joke candidates lined up cheering their 100 or less votes. Hope you get a better elected representative this year. Best of luck!
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Post by mark687 on Jun 3, 2019 11:21:22 GMT
Slightly off Topic but given the state of Government at the moment, HM deserves props for just getting the Visit done this Week.
Regards
mark687
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Post by number13 on Jun 3, 2019 13:25:58 GMT
Hello again. Ah yes, of course Anothermanicmondas, an historic by-election. Is it the first time an MP's been dismissed by the electorate? I was talking to my teenager about the elections and I mentioned the Monster Raving Loohy Party but thought they'd ceased to exist. I always liked the joke candidates lined up cheering their 100 or less votes. Hope you get a better elected representative this year. Best of luck! They are (or were) the Official Monster Raving Loony Party to distinguish themselves from all the other unofficial monster raving loony parties - the ones with the red / blue / yellow etc. rosettes...
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lidar2
Castellan
You know, now that you mention it, I actually do rather like Attack of the Cybermen ...
Likes: 5,813
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Post by lidar2 on Jun 7, 2019 5:52:48 GMT
Labour hold Peterborough at by-election.
Never thought I'd be glad to see Labour win a by-election!
Tories didnt comoletely collapse either, which was another pleasant surprise.
Rumours of the death of the 2 party system appear to have been greatly exaggerated.
EDIT - on reflection Labour win maybe not such a good thing as it will take some of the pressure off Corbyn to come out for a 2nd referendum
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Post by Ela on Jun 7, 2019 14:37:03 GMT
I've been following this all along and wondering when (if?) there'll be some resolution. Seems like a merry-go-round so far.
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Post by doctorkernow on Jun 7, 2019 20:44:13 GMT
Hello again.
I know what you mean Ela. Ever decreasing circles, but it's no merry-go-round, more like circular misery. I can see another extension happening in October.
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Post by Ela on Jun 7, 2019 21:05:51 GMT
Hello again. I know what you mean Ela. Ever decreasing circles, but it's no merry-go-round, more like circular misery. I can see another extension happening in October. Circular misery sounds about right.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2019 13:44:59 GMT
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Post by charlesuirdhein on Jul 5, 2019 0:55:58 GMT
This is just ludicrous nonsense. And it's not the lowest they've gone, and not the lowest they'll go. If there is anyone on here that actually agrees with this, do not ever speak to me.
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lidar2
Castellan
You know, now that you mention it, I actually do rather like Attack of the Cybermen ...
Likes: 5,813
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Post by lidar2 on Jul 29, 2019 10:05:19 GMT
Looks like we are heading for no-deal
Yes, Boris could be trying to bluff the EU into climbing down, but the British government is not leaving itself any wiggle room at all for a subsequent compromise. This could be the Donald Trump North Korea strategy or the Nixon goes to China strategy but it doesn't feel like it. They seem to be boxing themselves into a no-deal corner.
Are there any grounds for optimism? Well, Boris may finally galvanise the Remainers in Parliament to up the ante. There doesn't seem to be a majority in Parliament for a 2nd ref but if Boris forces the soft brexiteers to come off the fence and choose between no delay and 2nd ref then there might just be that majority. But to be honest I'm not all that optimistic - the former Remainers are too divided and too lacking in backbone to do what is needed - they will faff about debating tactics, making excuses about party loyalty, and unable to decide between Common Market 2.0 or a 2nd ref until it is too late.
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