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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2019 11:08:17 GMT
Johnson’s brother just resigned from the Cabinet and as a MP it seems. That's quite something. Not just a member of Boris Johnson's new government but his own brother pretty directly saying what the PM is doing is against the national interest. This is not going the way Boris planned...
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2019 11:24:52 GMT
Not that the Daily Mirror is in any way a pillar of virtue, but their front page amused me today. Boris, on the front, looking defeated. The headline: "Worst Prime Minister ... since the last one!"
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2019 11:30:45 GMT
Not that the Daily Mirror is in any way a pillar of virtue, but their front page amused me today. Boris, on the front, looking defeated. The headline: "Worst Prime Minister ... since the last one!" I think that's a bit unkind to May - she did have some good days dotted between the disastrous ones and though she commited hari-kari with the 2017 election slicing her majority, she at least held that majority for 2 years - Boris didn't make it to his first PMQs before losing it!
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Post by number13 on Sept 5, 2019 11:54:42 GMT
I want to know what happened in the Lords last night. One minute they were talking away, taking 20-50 mins to vote on and reject every amendment (of well over 100 tabled) and by simple maths it looked as if the filibuster would succeed, given the limited time available.
Then around 2 am the various whips were conferring and the next minute, the filibuster ended and front benchers made comments about (I'm not quoting verbatim, it was very late ) keeping to the letter and spirit of the agreement. So a deal of some sort must have been done between the parties?? It seems remarkable in today's world that no details have emerged been plastered all over Twitter yet.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2019 11:56:08 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2019 11:57:20 GMT
From 'NewsThump', the headline: 'Jo Johnson resigns as Tory MP to spend less time with his family.'
You have to get your laughs when you can!
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Post by number13 on Sept 5, 2019 12:31:12 GMT
I've decided I'm taking a few days off from the madness - full news blackout, the works! Fascinating though it is and will no doubt continue to be for weeks/months, I want a weekend without the Westminster mayhem.
I don't think anything much is going to happen right now so I'll see you all on this thread in a few days - but could someone please wake me up if we have a new government before then?
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lidar2
Castellan
You know, now that you mention it, I actually do rather like Attack of the Cybermen ...
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Post by lidar2 on Sept 6, 2019 8:12:46 GMT
Good article by John Curtis on Guardian website www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/sep/06/early-late-election-labour-brexit-october-johnsonThe upshot of it is that if Labour force delay of election to November, then BJ's only remaining strategy to stay in power and win the November election is to secure a deal and leave with a deal on 31 October. The EU will not give him anything like the sort of deal he is currently demanding, so he would have to eat his words and do a complete U-turn but this is, after all, what he has built a career on. He would bring the Philip Hammonds back on board and get support from the 25 or so Labour brexiteers but probably lose a lot of the ERG and the DUP and be more vulnerable to Farage in the November election, but it is probably his best bet.
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Post by sherlock on Sept 6, 2019 11:30:08 GMT
So Johnson now says if he can’t have an election he’ll go to Brussels and get a deal.
Wasn’t this what he was supposed to be doing anyway?
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lidar2
Castellan
You know, now that you mention it, I actually do rather like Attack of the Cybermen ...
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Post by lidar2 on Sept 6, 2019 11:47:10 GMT
So Johnson now says if he can’t have an election he’ll go to Brussels and get a deal. Wasn’t this what he was supposed to be doing anyway? A deal is his only option if he can't have an election, would rather die in a ditch than ask for an extension, can't go for no deal without breaking the law and doesn't want to resign. Problem is how can he hope to get any better deal out of the EU than Theresa May's deal without the threat of a no-deal and when they know he is desperate because he is out of options and his political survival depends on it? Why would the EU even want to throw him, of all people, a political lifeline when an election is likely to result in a more amenable Corbyn and a 2nd referendum and possibly Remain? And if he just goes for Theresa May's deal, can he pull off the biggest U-turn in the history of British politics? I think he is an unprincipled opportunist who would have no qualms about doing that, but could he sell it? His own hardline rhetoric would be a rod for his own back. By purging the moderates who would have supported a compromise he has left himself dependent on the hardliners who won't and he would be totally exposed to attack from Farage.
TBH I think BJ's best chance of getting a concession form the EU is not threatening no-deal but threatening Remain, as by now they may be willing to pay a price just to be rid of the UK
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2019 14:08:31 GMT
So Johnson now says if he can’t have an election he’ll go to Brussels and get a deal. Wasn’t this what he was supposed to be doing anyway? A deal is his only option if he can't have an election, would rather die in a ditch than ask for an extension, can't go for no deal without breaking the law and doesn't want to resign. Problem is how can he hope to get any better deal out of the EU than Theresa May's deal without the threat of a no-deal and when they know he is desperate because he is out of options and his political survival depends on it? Why would the EU even want to throw him, of all people, a political lifeline when an election is likely to result in a more amenable Corbyn and a 2nd referendum and possibly Remain? And if he just goes for Theresa May's deal, can he pull off the biggest U-turn in the history of British politics? I think he is an unprincipled opportunist who would have no qualms about doing that, but could he sell it? His own hardline rhetoric would be a rod for his own back. By purging the moderates who would have supported a compromise he has left himself dependent on the hardliners who won't and he would be totally exposed to attack from Farage.
TBH I think BJ's best chance of getting a concession form the EU is not threatening no-deal but threatening Remain, as by now they may be willing to pay a price just to be rid of the UK
The EU won't pay that price to get rid - there's too much to be lost for them too. They'd rather take the annoyances now on the high chance of the PM (whomever they may be) being forced to deal, or cancel Brexit. I'd say Johnson's goose is cooked as there's no way out of this for him now. Even if he makes it to a GE and wins...he's still going to have to ask for the extension first which he says is a red line for him. So "do or die"....why does he think his opponents would help him "do" when by his own OTT rhetoric, we can all facilitate his political death in the - again using his own words - ditch.
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lidar2
Castellan
You know, now that you mention it, I actually do rather like Attack of the Cybermen ...
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Post by lidar2 on Sept 6, 2019 14:12:25 GMT
A deal is his only option if he can't have an election, would rather die in a ditch than ask for an extension, can't go for no deal without breaking the law and doesn't want to resign. Problem is how can he hope to get any better deal out of the EU than Theresa May's deal without the threat of a no-deal and when they know he is desperate because he is out of options and his political survival depends on it? Why would the EU even want to throw him, of all people, a political lifeline when an election is likely to result in a more amenable Corbyn and a 2nd referendum and possibly Remain? And if he just goes for Theresa May's deal, can he pull off the biggest U-turn in the history of British politics? I think he is an unprincipled opportunist who would have no qualms about doing that, but could he sell it? His own hardline rhetoric would be a rod for his own back. By purging the moderates who would have supported a compromise he has left himself dependent on the hardliners who won't and he would be totally exposed to attack from Farage.
TBH I think BJ's best chance of getting a concession form the EU is not threatening no-deal but threatening Remain, as by now they may be willing to pay a price just to be rid of the UK
The EU won't pay that price to get rid - there's too much to be lost for them too. They'd rather take the annoyances now on the high chance of the PM (whomever they may be) being forced to deal, or cancel Brexit. I'd say Johnson's goose is cooked as there's no way out of this for him now. Even if he makes it to a GE and wins...he's still going to have to ask for the extension first which he says is a red line for him. So "do or die"....why does he think his opponents would help him "do" when by his own OTT rhetoric, we can all facilitate his political death in the - again using his own words - ditch. John Crace, the Guardian's sketchwriter, calls Boris and his chief of staff Dom and Dommer. I think the hole they have dug themselves into shows he pretty much has the measure of them
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2019 14:31:32 GMT
TBH I think BJ's best chance of getting a concession form the EU is not threatening no-deal but threatening Remain, as by now they may be willing to pay a price just to be rid of the UK They'd rather take the annoyances now on the high chance of the PM (whomever they may be) being forced to deal, or cancel Brexit Definitely the latter... the hope from an Irish TD that I spoke to last week was that at the end of 'whatever is going on in the UK at the moment' the end result is that "the UK stays in the EU and we can all get back to normal" ... so I'd say the EU would be of the same opinion. All they're probably waiting for now is David Cameron to step out of the shower and everything since June 2016 turns out to have been a dream.
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Post by sherlock on Sept 6, 2019 14:40:03 GMT
Bill to block no deal is clear of the Lords. Now just needs royal assent.
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lidar2
Castellan
You know, now that you mention it, I actually do rather like Attack of the Cybermen ...
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Post by lidar2 on Sept 6, 2019 15:02:52 GMT
As a Conservative party member I have just received an email form Boris saying Labour MPs have "just passed a law that would force me to beg Brussels for an extension to the Brexit deadline. This is something I will never do. . . . I won’t accept Labour’s delay. . . We’ll deliver Brexit by October 31st. No ifs, no buts."
Given that delay is now the law, I wonder how he plans to do that?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2019 21:03:08 GMT
As a Conservative party member I have just received an email form Boris saying Labour MPs have "just passed a law that would force me to beg Brussels for an extension to the Brexit deadline. This is something I will never do. . . . I won’t accept Labour’s delay. . . We’ll deliver Brexit by October 31st. No ifs, no buts." Given that delay is now the law, I wonder how he plans to do that? Probably the way he's planned to do everything - mumbling, shambling and all with the voice of Dominic Cummings. If he had a trump card, I don't think we'd have seen the petulance of the last few days from him. Cummings may have convinced Johnson otherwise but there's nothing left to him to get this October 31st No Deal on the table unless Johnson just gets May's deal through very, very quickly - and then he'd lose the loony right of the party he's courted to get him this far to Nigel Farage while he's never going to appeal to the centrists anyway. And since Johnson voted that deal down himself he couldn't go back with it and expect to carry on. Who knows what he's thinking...even trying to bring down his own government next week with a vote of no confidence wouldn't be viable before the prorogue of his making. He can double down on this "chicken" nonsense all the while the country is just thinking "If Corbyn is chicken...how has he spanked you all week long?". Awful, awful week for Johnson. I can't see the one ahead being better. If the masterplan he seems to think he has in your email doesn't get rolled out on Monday or so, we'll know it's bluster as there's no time after that to get anything through even if he has the numbers which...well, seems unlikely. What he's done in such a short space of time is remarkable - lose every one of the votes he's been involved in, lost his majority, fired 21 of his own benches including 2 former Chancellors and his hero's grandson and stammer as he watched another of his number literally cross the floor in front of his own eyes and seen his own brother quit the cabinet citing the government not working in the national interest. Oh...and he's made Jeremy Corbyn look statesmanlike, prepared and electable. That's the most remarkable thing Boris Johnson has ever done. I'm wondering now if he's been a secret "loony lefty" all this time himself - if so he's almost blown his cover as this degree of incompetence is pretty unprecedented. George Canning lasted 119 days as PM, the shortest ever....I wonder if Boris is trying to grab that record? He's always wanted to go down in history! Isn't it amazing how unifying he has been though? Just on this forum quite a lot of us had incredibly differing views on politics and couldn't discuss them too much without ending up disagreeing to the point of arguing. Wheras now we all seem pretty united against Johnson. My own sense is that normally you'd say "well, it's just a few of us, we're an echo chamber..." etc but I'm seeing this anti-Johnson talk amplified across the nation and the more he won't get his "do or die" "I'd rather be dead in a ditch than extend" brexit on October 31st his support will crumble to the point a GE post then would see him in dire straits indeed according to the polling, Yougov's poll this week says if he doesn't get Brexit done by his deadline then he'd be almost neck and neck with Labour in the polls at 25%, losing massive amounts to the Brexit Party and making a Labour, Liberal, SNP led government (I suspect with coalition for the first two and confidence and supply with the SNP) a very real prospect indeed.. The problem with saying "do or die" is that when you don't "do"...there's not much left on the table for you!
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2019 22:11:04 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2019 22:19:42 GMT
There's something quite fun about seeing Mogg in Castrovalva as he's very much a S19 character - you can imagine him in Black Orchid no problem! He seems like the type who would say, as Michael Cochrane does, "Ripping performance old chap, must come over to the house and meet the Mater!" Although that's early 20th century patter...maybe a bit modern for Mogg.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2019 10:08:28 GMT
It's always baffled me how BJ says that 'people want this thing over' when talking about Brexit - as if it will be all over by October 31st. Surely no-one needs telling, that is just the beginning ...
... and still he is banging on about 'getting this thing done' by October 31st. Just as May's 'strong and stable' rhetoric became an albatross for her, BJ seems to think the general public believe getting out of the EU will be an 'end' to things. Who is he trying to convince? That's when negotiations will begin in earnest, especially if there's a no-deal (which seems less likely now, at least).
Anyway, he seems to be crumbling, his personality isn't equipped to deal with the grilling he is getting from ... well, everyone. He's done everything he can to become PM, and as has been listed, his first couple of weeks in the job have seen a political shambles I don't ever remember seeing before.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2019 18:55:56 GMT
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