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Post by agentten on Dec 27, 2017 23:43:23 GMT
I've been watching early episodes of Dark Shadows, pre-Barnabas, in particular the Laura/Phoenix and Burke/Roger story lines and some questions have been floating around in my mind about David that to my knowledge have never been answered. I don't pretend to be a master of all things Dark Shadows, though I've seen the entire series and have heard 90% of the audios, including all of the ones David appears in. Web searching hasn't yielded any results, either, so I thought I'd put it to this message board since you all seem very knowledgeable about the show.
My questions are:
1.) It's implied throughout the first year that Burke, not Roger, may be David's father. The writers spend a lot of time putting Burke and David together in father/son situations and they bond, even beyond Burke's attempts to use Carolyn and David against Roger and Elizabeth. Roger even puts the implied question to Laura during one of their arguments, wondering aloud if David is even his. Do we ever get a firm answer on the question of who David's father is?
2.) David's mother is not human. She's an immortal phoenix who burns herself alive every hundred years and is reborn from the ashes. What does this mean for David? Is David entirely human? We certainly see that David is a focal point for many of the supernatural occurrences that happen on both the show and the audios. He's repeatedly possessed and tormented by a number of different entities. Could this mean that there is something supernatural about David that causes him to stand out as a beacon for these entities beyond just being a vulnerable member of a cursed family? Is David supernatural in some way?
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Post by omega on Dec 27, 2017 23:46:15 GMT
For 1, there was no definite answer. Burke ends up overshadowed by Barnabas, and then written out. He's also recast by an actor not as good as Mitchell Ryan.
Regarding 2, David shows no innate supernatural ability as of the TV episodes or the audios. All cases of possession have been by external influences, and have affected others with similar effect.
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Post by Trace on Dec 28, 2017 0:12:26 GMT
Neither of your questions have been definitively answered, as Omega says. Yet. 😉
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Post by barnabaslives on Dec 28, 2017 1:29:11 GMT
Alec Newman as David often tends to sound like Burke might be his father more easily than Roger, so I think of the Big Finish audios as keeping the mystery alive and well.
Indeed, as others have stated, I can't think of David showing any abilities that might be related to his mother being a Phoenix, unless perhaps he's proven himself to be unusually gifted with the crystal ball that Burke gave him. I at least like to fancy that children of a Phoenix might go through some phase involving a strange fascination with Egyptology, though - suddenly writing in ancient Egyptian hieroglyphs might have been the weirdest thing that any of Laura's children actually did?
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Post by omega on Dec 28, 2017 2:48:56 GMT
Alec Newman as David often tends to sound like Burke might be his father more easily than Roger, so I think of the Big Finish audios as keeping the mystery alive and well. Indeed, as others have stated, I can't think of David showing any abilities that might be related to his mother being a Phoenix, unless perhaps he's proven himself to be unusually gifted with the crystal ball that Burke gave him. I at least like to fancy that children of a Phoenix might go through some phase involving a strange fascination with Egyptology, though - suddenly writing in ancient Egyptian hieroglyphs might have been the weirdest thing that any of Laura's children actually did? I think that's more Alec's American accent, as he uses a similar accent for the Fourth Doctor story The Silent Scream. David looked up to Burke Devlin anyway, so he might have modelled his voice after Burke's. |
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Post by Trace on Dec 28, 2017 23:08:36 GMT
I do (personally) think that the show’s creators eventually decided that David was indeed Roger’s son and a true Collins. For one thing, he looked exactly like Roger’s father Jamison did as a boy. He also looked exactly like his ancestor Daniel, who grew up to be a dead ringer for Roger! That, to me, is enough evidence of the unspoken intent. But then again, I never liked the “Victoria is Liz’s illegitimate daughter” theory.. I still don’t like it. I feel like that may have been the original intent, but the writers changed their minds to go with the Betty Hanscomb theory. Again— the likeness between Vicki and Betty was uncanny. Yet everyone seemed to feel AM looked just like Joan Bennett! To me, the only similarity was the color of their hair.
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cschell
Big Finish Creative Team
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Post by cschell on Dec 30, 2017 0:54:47 GMT
Yes, but Burke Devlin looked exactly like Jeremiah Collins. It's kind of hard to use that kind of logic to prove lineage.
For what it's worth:
"And Red All Over" was originally going to have a lot more supernatural content in it before it was decided to make it supernaturally ambiguous.
One early idea was that the Ink, as murky underworld types trying to gather power and influence - were invested in Burke because of his connection to the Phoenix. Only hints of this idea remain - This is why Laura gets a strong mention, and why the Ink is transfixed by a small flame towards the end of the audio.
The Ink believed that Burke was the father of the Phoenix's child, and it's why they chose him in that dirty bar in Montevideo. They could smell the Phoenix on him.
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Post by omega on Dec 30, 2017 1:21:30 GMT
Yes, but Burke Devlin looked exactly like Jeremiah Collins. It's kind of hard to use that kind of logic to prove lineage. For what it's worth: "And Red All Over" was originally going to have a lot more supernatural content in it before it was decided to make it supernaturally ambiguous. One early idea was that the Ink, as murky underworld types trying to gather power and influence - were invested in Burke because of his connection to the Phoenix. Only hints of this idea remain - This is why Laura gets a strong mention, and why the Ink is transfixed by a small flame towards the end of the audio. The Ink believed that Burke was the father of the Phoenix's child, and it's why they chose him in that dirty bar in Montevideo. They could smell the Phoenix on him. Genetic spatial anomaly enabled by whatever Hellmouth lies under Collinsport. |
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Post by barnabaslives on Dec 30, 2017 4:03:48 GMT
But then again, I never liked the “Victoria is Liz’s illegitimate daughter” theory.. I still don’t like it. I feel like that may have been the original intent, but the writers changed their minds to go with the Betty Hanscomb theory. Again— the likeness between Vicki and Betty was uncanny. Yet everyone seemed to feel AM looked just like Joan Bennett! To me, the only similarity was the color of their hair. I thought Alexandra and Joan sort of had similar foreheads and features enough to give a sense that it could be, but the Betty Handscombe portrait sort of clinched the deal because I thought it seemed to look a great deal like both Victoria and Elizabeth, which made them seem to look more like each other. Pretty sure I'm fine with the idea of Vicki being Liz's daughter myself. I forget what all it might take to iron that out with the Betty Handscombe theory - possibly something like Liz got the nickname Betty Handscombe because of a crush she might have had on the Handscombe who worked at Collinwood, only Roger never found out about it so he draws a blank at the reference, and Sam's reminscence of "Betty Handscome" is really about Elizabeth Collins (possibly being a bit facetious if he had anything uncharacteristic to say about her)? (It's a shame how many details I've already forgotten after having such a blast doing a big write-up on Vicki's parentage for gregm's thread last year). I think for about five minutes I really liked the idea that one fan fiction had about Vicki being the daughter of Petofi - I had this moment of "Victor? Victoria? Woah, I should have guessed!" - but then I was warned that the particular story was probably going to get more and more fan-ficcy from there so I took a pass. It's kind of fun though to spot the Petofi box on a dresser outside Vicki's room in some of the really early episodes after that, and wonder a little what might have been. :-) |
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Post by Zagreus on Dec 30, 2017 6:04:40 GMT
Yes, but Burke Devlin looked exactly like Jeremiah Collins. It's kind of hard to use that kind of logic to prove lineage. For what it's worth: "And Red All Over" was originally going to have a lot more supernatural content in it before it was decided to make it supernaturally ambiguous. One early idea was that the Ink, as murky underworld types trying to gather power and influence - were invested in Burke because of his connection to the Phoenix. Only hints of this idea remain - This is why Laura gets a strong mention, and why the Ink is transfixed by a small flame towards the end of the audio. The Ink believed that Burke was the father of the Phoenix's child, and it's why they chose him in that dirty bar in Montevideo. They could smell the Phoenix on him. Ah, that's fascinating to hear! Can you tell us if there are any plans to follow this up or re-explore it at present? |
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Post by agentten on Dec 30, 2017 7:09:57 GMT
Yes, but Burke Devlin looked exactly like Jeremiah Collins. It's kind of hard to use that kind of logic to prove lineage. For what it's worth: "And Red All Over" was originally going to have a lot more supernatural content in it before it was decided to make it supernaturally ambiguous. One early idea was that the Ink, as murky underworld types trying to gather power and influence - were invested in Burke because of his connection to the Phoenix. Only hints of this idea remain - This is why Laura gets a strong mention, and why the Ink is transfixed by a small flame towards the end of the audio. The Ink believed that Burke was the father of the Phoenix's child, and it's why they chose him in that dirty bar in Montevideo. They could smell the Phoenix on him. This is so very tantalizing! Not to mention great fodder for a future box set featuring Burke . . . |
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Post by Zagreus on Dec 30, 2017 17:53:22 GMT
great fodder for a future box set I've often speculated over the upcoming "Bloodline"... |
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bobod
Chancellery Guard
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Post by bobod on Dec 30, 2017 18:39:07 GMT
I've often been tickled by it always taking a supernatural woman to catch Roger's eye... as though he wouldn't necessarily have been interested in them in the first place...
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Post by Zagreus on Dec 30, 2017 18:49:41 GMT
Heh! Now there's a thought...
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Post by Trace on Jan 1, 2018 5:05:38 GMT
Yes, but Burke Devlin looked exactly like Jeremiah Collins. It's kind of hard to use that kind of logic to prove lineage. For what it's worth: "And Red All Over" was originally going to have a lot more supernatural content in it before it was decided to make it supernaturally ambiguous. One early idea was that the Ink, as murky underworld types trying to gather power and influence - were invested in Burke because of his connection to the Phoenix. Only hints of this idea remain - This is why Laura gets a strong mention, and why the Ink is transfixed by a small flame towards the end of the audio. The Ink believed that Burke was the father of the Phoenix's child, and it's why they chose him in that dirty bar in Montevideo. They could smell the Phoenix on him. Of course you’re right that it’s a pretty shaky line of logic...but it’s not my intent to use the theory to ‘prove’ lineage. However , it is a fact that David Henesy’s and Louis Edmonds’ many characters were put together in the Collins family repeatedly as father/son/cousin/uncle/nephew/grandfather/grandson/ancestor/descendent . I don’t believe it was merely coincidence. To me, it feels like the show’s creators did it intentionally. Had Mitch Ryan or Anthony George stayed with the show, things may have played out differently. I just personally don’t like the Burke/David theory OR the Liz/Vicki theory. I just thought of one more popular theory that I don’t like—that Tony Peterson was a Trask. And yes, I know I’m in the minority with these! 🤨 |
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Post by barnabaslives on Jan 1, 2018 5:22:34 GMT
I just thought of one more popular theory that I don’t like—that Tony Peterson was a Trask. And yes, I know I’m in the minority with these! 🤨 That's another one that seems to be purely optional, but you have to admit the resemblance is rather uncanny. :-) I also think I like it the way it would reflect on the Tony & Cassandra team if Tony turned out to be a Trask descendant. |
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Post by omega on Jan 1, 2018 5:41:53 GMT
I just thought of one more popular theory that I don’t like—that Tony Peterson was a Trask. And yes, I know I’m in the minority with these! 🤨 That's another one that seems to be purely optional, but you have to admit the resemblance is rather uncanny. :-) I also think I like it the way it would reflect on the Tony & Cassandra team if Tony turned out to be a Trask descendant. Considering the patterns repeated in the history of the Trask family I wouldn't be surprised if Tony was a Trask. Just once the young Trask goes to another family, the Petersons, and is allowed to walk his own path. The Dark Lord singled Tony out in The Last Stop, trying and for once failing to claim someone's soul where previous Trasks had fallen under his influence. |
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Post by agentten on Jan 2, 2018 3:30:14 GMT
I also think I like it the way it would reflect on the Tony & Cassandra team if Tony turned out to be a Trask descendant. This is precisely why I like to think that Tony is a Trask. It adds a great extra layer to their relationship and ties into the ongoing theme of lineage and paying for the sins of your forefathers that's present throughout Dark Shadows. |
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cschell
Big Finish Creative Team
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Post by cschell on Jan 2, 2018 4:16:59 GMT
Yes, but Burke Devlin looked exactly like Jeremiah Collins. It's kind of hard to use that kind of logic to prove lineage. For what it's worth: "And Red All Over" was originally going to have a lot more supernatural content in it before it was decided to make it supernaturally ambiguous. One early idea was that the Ink, as murky underworld types trying to gather power and influence - were invested in Burke because of his connection to the Phoenix. Only hints of this idea remain - This is why Laura gets a strong mention, and why the Ink is transfixed by a small flame towards the end of the audio. The Ink believed that Burke was the father of the Phoenix's child, and it's why they chose him in that dirty bar in Montevideo. They could smell the Phoenix on him. Ah, that's fascinating to hear! Can you tell us if there are any plans to follow this up or re-explore it at present? No plans at the moment, but the Phoenix is one of the most original concepts in the DS Universe. This is really just one of the stages a story can go through, a more complex backstory left in place to make what you see through the cracks seem richer. Although in this case, that backstory was very obscured... |
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Post by silverednickle on Jun 25, 2018 18:50:46 GMT
Personally, I'm for any exploration of Dark Shadow's phoenix. Blood & Fire was a lovely sample of what a story with a phoenix could have in it. I would love it if we discover other phoenixes. While there is that rule from the first phoenix plot line in 1966 contemporary, they changed a lot of rules for Laura to be in the 1897 mix. Perhaps the research they did was simply wrong or only one from each line can exist at a time that having children would weaken the bond with Ra that keeps each alive or something.
Thanks for sharing Cody. I was so pleased to hear more from Burke and Laura. There are a lot of great stories early in the show that it is lovely when these are able to be creatively brought up in these new audios.
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