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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2018 5:14:04 GMT
So, where does The Master/Missy's story go to now?
We all know The Doctor's oldest friend and greatest enemy will be back. I'm not sure if it serves the show well to have two mega geniuses on rotation. I know many of us feel that the series will 'reset' The Mistress in some way and I don't know if Who is particularly well-served by having two mega geniuses on rotation,but Who is pushing forward with new ground with The Doctor's new incarnation and long-running franchises have made permeant lasting changes to long-running characters before. Me? We've seen The Mistress challenge The Doctor's morality before and I can't help but feel we'll see The Master's newfound moral compass challenge The Doctor's in deeply uncomfortable ways either when the dust has settled for Thirteen or in future incarnations.
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Post by constonks on Jan 17, 2018 8:08:25 GMT
I will agree that I'm expecting a reset. I mean, it can always be written off as a regeneration thing - she turns into someone new and now is back to the old Mastery ways.
However, I would like to see the Master's brush with morality have some lasting effects. As long as (I think this is important) the Master is still the Doctor's enemy, not a friend.
My big question is how long will it be? Will it be under Chibnall or the next showrunner? Or will the Master be gone for many years once again?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2018 8:58:17 GMT
I will agree that I'm expecting a reset. I mean, it can always be written off as a regeneration thing - she turns into someone new and now is back to the old Mastery ways. However, I would like to see the Master's brush with morality have some lasting effects. As long as (I think this is important) the Master is still the Doctor's enemy, not a friend. My big question is how long will it be? Will it be under Chibnall or the next showrunner? Or will the Master be gone for many years once again? Yeah, I've wondered if Simm Master is going to interfere with his future regenerations somehow, supressing the aspects of themselves that was brought out in Missy that lead to her to walk the path of redemption leading to a darker, more savage incarnation (in homage to the original series). A future incarnation of The Mistress/The Master with little to no amonsity for The Doctor is a frightening concept and could add a new edge to their dynamic. Missy still 'dies' and it's still very much a death, one last twist of the knife by the Simm Master as all that Missy has struggled for is swept away and something terrible emerges in her her wake....The Doctor no longer being able to play on his old friend's friendship would be a huge shakeup. Long-running franchises need shakeups and you've got to mess with the fundmentals occasionally. Having The Master out there doing 'good' and challenging The Doctor's morality is still dramatically intresting. We don't have to see her/him every week, but it's something new and different. It can tread new intresting ground. [/Quote] I'd be content to wait and it'd defiantly wouldn't be in Thirteen's first two series, but I REALLY want to see a female Doctor/Mistress dynamic, however The Mistress aligns herself. I REALLY want to see how it would play out. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2018 11:29:48 GMT
Am I the only one that doesn't think Simm's Master regenerates into Missy? We never saw it happen, a deliberate move on Moffat's part allowing for the new team to slot in other Masters. Also the character themselves is a bit confused on that point. In fact I'd prefer this to resetting a post-Missy Master, it would make what happened redundant to me. I love the idea that Missy permanently dies at her own hands & that although she redeems herself The Doctor will never know.
It could easily be explained to fans when the new Master meets 13 he comments on her gender looking forward to it happening to him.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2018 13:55:03 GMT
Am I the only one that doesn't think Simm's Master regenerates into Missy? We never saw it happen, a deliberate move on Moffat's part allowing for the new team to slot in other Masters. Also the character themselves is a bit confused on that point. In fact I'd prefer this to resetting a post-Missy Master, it would make what happened redundant to me. I love the idea that Missy permanently dies at her own hands & that although she redeems herself The Doctor will never know. It could easily be explained to fans when the new Master meets 13 he comments on her gender looking forward to it happening to him. If they introduce a new Master without a regeneration (which they likely will) then their placement within the Master's lives will automatically be ambiguous anyway. Although, it is heavily inferred in The Doctor Falls that Simm becomes Gomez, even taking the Cybermen from the colony ship to become Missy's army in Series 8. |
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Post by sherlock on Jan 17, 2018 14:07:10 GMT
Couple of possibilities:
-A new Master/Mistress who after surviving the colony ship is endeavouring to follow the redemption arc they began in Series 10 but their morals are still warped, putting them into conflict with the Doctor once again but with a somewhat different emphasis
-A new Master/Mistress who is bitter after surviving the colony ship and reverts to type, re-embracing their old identity and resuming their old feud with the Doctor
-A new Master who has yet to be Missy, so has yet to experience any of the redemption arc
All possibilities, all potentially interesting.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2018 14:14:21 GMT
I'd be in favour of not having another Master for a while now. While everyone and their granny who wrote for the character pre-Gomez did an "evil scheme + ambiguous demise = potential return", Moffat gave us an end for the character literally and with her attempt to stand with The Doctor, a figurative end narratively too.
While that won't stick, I wouldn't like it to be undone in a series or two. I suppose when the character does come back they could just be evil again but hopefully that last ep will alter the character. Some lazy plot contrivance could work but I think The Master leaves Moffat's era as a far more rounded character and would hate to see that undone with a return to cackling villainy for it's own sake.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2018 16:16:38 GMT
I'd be in favour of not having another Master for a while now. While everyone and their granny who wrote for the character pre-Gomez did an "evil scheme + ambiguous demise = potential return", Moffat gave us an end for the character literally and with her attempt to stand with The Doctor, a figurative end narratively too. While that won't stick, I wouldn't like it to be undone in a series or two. I suppose when the character does come back they could just be evil again but hopefully that last ep will alter the character. Some lazy plot contrivance could work but I think The Master leaves Moffat's era as a far more rounded character and would hate to see that undone with a return to cackling villainy for it's own sake. That's why I think the only real way forward is to have a Master (or 2 or 3!) in between Simm & Missy, the death of Missy seemed like really the only logical way the character could meet their final end; killed by a previous version rather than turn good. To go back on that would for me make the charater really boring & as you say it feels like both a figurative & narrative end for the character. Actually why not have no more Master! I always thought since Doom Coalition that a villain like The Eleven would be great for the TV show. But I guess most fans would want the character to return. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2018 16:20:37 GMT
Am I the only one that doesn't think Simm's Master regenerates into Missy? We never saw it happen, a deliberate move on Moffat's part allowing for the new team to slot in other Masters. Also the character themselves is a bit confused on that point. In fact I'd prefer this to resetting a post-Missy Master, it would make what happened redundant to me. I love the idea that Missy permanently dies at her own hands & that although she redeems herself The Doctor will never know. It could easily be explained to fans when the new Master meets 13 he comments on her gender looking forward to it happening to him. If they introduce a new Master without a regeneration (which they likely will) then their placement within the Master's lives will automatically be ambiguous anyway. Although, it is heavily inferred in The Doctor Falls that Simm becomes Gomez, even taking the Cybermen from the colony ship to become Missy's army in Series 8. But there was this, again more deliberate ambiguity from Moff! MASTER: So, I imagine you're the next one along, then? MISSY: Oh, I think so. I'm a bit hazy on the whole regeneration thing, I'm afraid. MASTER: You mean, I'm going to turn into a woman and you don't even remember it happening? This could also just imply the trauma of killing ones own next regeneration made the transition a bit hazy. |
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Post by jasonward on Jan 17, 2018 16:39:11 GMT
The Master has to revert back to being the foe of The Doctor, he's The Doctors Moriarty.
But I don't want the switch to be like a light switch, and I don't want what happened to have no effect.
Up until now, the Master has been evil mostly because he could be, he enjoyed it, he was mad, apparently driven so by the drums. But now free of the drums and having transformed whilst in the guise of Missy, s/he can't just go back to a maniacal evil genius. I would say the evil has be more grey, at least at first, there has to be some ambiguity on which side has the moral high ground, of course this has to be done without leaving the Doctor as the bad guy in the story.
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Post by relativetime on Jan 17, 2018 18:43:18 GMT
I think the Master/Mistress shouldn't be brought back for a few series and maybe allow some other Time Lord villains some time in the limelight. We still have Rassilon out there, carrying a pretty hefty grudge against the Doctor. Or how about reintroducing the Monk? Or Omega? Or how about a new Time Lord nemesis entirely? I think there's so many interesting avenues to explore rather than just reviving the character. If the Master/Mistress does return, I'd like to see either an incarnation set between Simm and Gomez, or an incarnation post-Gomez that's bitter the Doctor left her on the colony ship and slips back into his/her old ways (with, of course, the chance of redemption still on the table).
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Post by mrperson on Jan 17, 2018 18:48:14 GMT
How to bring back the Master? Once the encounter was over and Simm regenerated - whether into Missy or some other incarnation - the new one wouldn't remember that Simm killed his future self. Missy therefore wouldn't know to try to arrange some kind of protection against Simm's zap gun (in contrast to, say, modifying the vortex manipulators to make teleport look like extermination).
Still, I won't be surprised when we get a post-Missy Master. Plenty of episodes ended with certain death for the Master implied. It's not like we got a timelapse of Missy decomposing on some burned-out forest floor....
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2018 19:17:41 GMT
The Master has to revert back to being the foe of The Doctor, he's The Doctors Moriarty. But I don't want the switch to be like a light switch, and I don't want what happened to have no effect. Up until now, the Master has been evil mostly because he could be, he enjoyed it, he was mad, apparently driven so by the drums. But now free of the drums and having transformed whilst in the guise of Missy, s/he can't just go back to a maniacal evil genius. I would say the evil has be more grey, at least at first, there has to be some ambiguity on which side has the moral high ground, of course this has to be done without leaving the Doctor as the bad guy in the story. Moriarty died at the Reichenbach Falls. Holmes went on to have more adventures. So we can have a Doctor without a Master I feel. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2018 19:57:42 GMT
The Master has to revert back to being the foe of The Doctor, he's The Doctors Moriarty. But I don't want the switch to be like a light switch, and I don't want what happened to have no effect. Up until now, the Master has been evil mostly because he could be, he enjoyed it, he was mad, apparently driven so by the drums. But now free of the drums and having transformed whilst in the guise of Missy, s/he can't just go back to a maniacal evil genius. I would say the evil has be more grey, at least at first, there has to be some ambiguity on which side has the moral high ground, of course this has to be done without leaving the Doctor as the bad guy in the story. Moriarty died at the Reichenbach Falls. Holmes went on to have more adventures. So we can have a Doctor without a Master I feel. Exactly. Matt Smith's era managed just fine with not a single Master appearance while the characters almost annual returns in the 80s were to diminishing returns each time barr the last. While Tom's era managed the shows highest peaks of the classic series while rarely touching on the character at all. Moriarty was in two stories ever - and as you say there were dozens of beloved stories before and after him. Moffat had a lovely idea for the character in Series 10 and we saw it play out wonderfully. While, yes, the Master has "died" plenty of times before,it was always in a serial,pulp kind of way where the nefarious villain would be sure to come back with an even dafter evil scheme. But this was a death of the body but rebirth of her soul at the same time. The Master died after choosing redemption through The Doctor's offer of embracing kindness, righteousness and decency even in the face of certain death, all while refusing an easy escape route. That's far too powerful to not alter the character for good. The nature of the beast is, though, that sometime the character will come back. I just hope they return with a good story. |
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Post by jasonward on Jan 17, 2018 21:51:36 GMT
The Master has to revert back to being the foe of The Doctor, he's The Doctors Moriarty. But I don't want the switch to be like a light switch, and I don't want what happened to have no effect. Up until now, the Master has been evil mostly because he could be, he enjoyed it, he was mad, apparently driven so by the drums. But now free of the drums and having transformed whilst in the guise of Missy, s/he can't just go back to a maniacal evil genius. I would say the evil has be more grey, at least at first, there has to be some ambiguity on which side has the moral high ground, of course this has to be done without leaving the Doctor as the bad guy in the story. Moriarty died at the Reichenbach Falls. Holmes went on to have more adventures. So we can have a Doctor without a Master I feel. I have no need or demands to see the Master any time soon, but The Master will be back, in a show like Who there is just no way you can kill someone truely so long as there are writers in the real world that want to write stories for them. |
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Post by Audio Watchdog on Jan 17, 2018 22:09:39 GMT
I don't know that Missy's story needs to go anywhere. Except to Big Finish of course.
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Post by glutamodo on Jan 18, 2018 2:55:22 GMT
Hah. Well, if BF could find GOOD voice actors to recast Delgado and Ainley, let's have a "story from every Master" box set.
Jeez, how many stories would that add up to, if you count Big Finish's continuities?
( in saying this, I have to admit that I do not mind quality recasts, and also that I rather liked Delgado and I never had an issue with Ainley and I'd really like BF to do something more with those incarnations. Plus... I rather very much liked what BF brought out of Alex Macqueen in the role, and any excuse, to have more of him, I will take!)
Now Missy... hmmm. I never really got into her incarnation. She was "there" on the screen but that was about it for me. Don't get me wrong, I thought the part was played well, and the whole gender-swap thing wasn't a problem. But really, only at the very end when she "turned" and decided to stand with the Doctor, did that incarnation ever "do" anything for me. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2018 23:43:42 GMT
We should have had a scene of a cgi ghost snake thing slithering out of Missy's mouth...& into a robot version of The Master!
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Post by liam on Jan 19, 2018 13:37:01 GMT
Does anyone think there's any possible way we could see Jacobi's Master return? With Big Finish picking up with him as the War Master I'd love to see him return to TV. Could we see him pre Time War? I'd love a more in depth look at this incarnation of the Master!
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Post by jasonward on Jan 19, 2018 13:53:01 GMT
Does anyone think there's any possible way we could see Jacobi's Master return? With Big Finish picking up with him as the War Master I'd love to see him return to TV. Could we see him pre Time War? I'd love a more in depth look at this incarnation of the Master! I think it depends on what you mean by possible, it's always possible, but I suspect it unlikely, especially since BF are now using him, in order for him to return to TV, BF would probably have to stop any new productions with him. I guess a somewhat likely scenario might be a cameo or flash back of some type or perhaps a minisode like McGann's Doctor, but I still think this unlikely. |
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