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Post by icecreamdf on Nov 9, 2015 14:57:52 GMT
I have some trouble swallowing the resolution here. What about all the "radicalized Zygons" who want to kill humans? Bonnie may have changed her mind after listening to the speech, but what about them? They may not be able to unmask all Zygons at once, but there's still plenty of terrorizing and radicalizing for them to do... Bonnie was in charge though, so the radicals no longer have a leader. Maybe the radicals will try again, in which case their new leader will try to steal the Osgood box again, and the Doctor will make another speech. He implied that this isn't the first time its happenned.
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Post by mrperson on Nov 9, 2015 14:59:45 GMT
I have some trouble swallowing the resolution here. What about all the "radicalized Zygons" who want to kill humans? Bonnie may have changed her mind after listening to the speech, but what about them? They may not be able to unmask all Zygons at once, but there's still plenty of terrorizing and radicalizing for them to do... Bonnie was in charge though, so the radicals no longer have a leader. Maybe the radicals will try again, in which case their new leader will try to steal the Osgood box again, and the Doctor will make another speech. He implied that this isn't the first time its happenned. I suppose Zygon terrorists have a greater respect for chain of command than human terrorists. I wasn't sure how to interpret the line you refer to in the last sentence, if we're thinking of the same line. Something about it being the "fifteenth time". I wasn't sure if he meant he had tried giving those particular parties the peace speech fifteen times off-screen in that particular episode, failed and reset their memories, such that was presented was the sixteenth run at it. Or, that this is the sixteenth uprising he's had to deal with, and has wiped everyone else's memories each time. Or, I misunderstood whatever was said.
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Post by acousticwolf on Nov 9, 2015 15:04:32 GMT
Only downer was that I think forgiveness for Bonnie - a killer - was fine but there should have been some... well... consequences that she faced for what she did. Forgiveness is great and something I believe in for a redemptive justice system, but she pretty much got away with it, didn't she? This seems to be a common theme this year, there were no consequences for Missy in the opening episodes for either killing the Unit soldier or trying to get the doctor to kill Clara . I don't know if it's just Capaldi's doctor, but he seems to be strangely unaffected by any of the deaths around him. He only seems to be concerned by what happens to Clara - there wasn't even a mention about the deaths of the pilot/copilot on his plane (I checked, there were definitely only two chutes). This isn't a criticism btw way. I'm really enjoying series 9, but the doctor seems ... unmoved by what happens to others. Perhaps it's just me ... Cheers Tony
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Post by icecreamdf on Nov 9, 2015 15:12:36 GMT
Only downer was that I think forgiveness for Bonnie - a killer - was fine but there should have been some... well... consequences that she faced for what she did. Forgiveness is great and something I believe in for a redemptive justice system, but she pretty much got away with it, didn't she? This seems to be a common theme this year, there were no consequences for Missy in the opening episodes for either killing the Unit soldier or trying to get the doctor to kill Clara . I don't know if it's just Capaldi's doctor, but he seems to be strangely unaffected by any of the deaths around him. He only seems to be concerned by what happens to Clara - there wasn't even a mention about the deaths of the pilot/copilot on his plane (I checked, there were definitely only two chutes). This isn't a criticism btw way. I'm really enjoying series 9, but the doctor seems ... unmoved by what happens to others. Perhaps it's just me ... Cheers Tony Well, the Doctor did abandon Missy on Skaro to face certain death at the hands of the Daleks. Granted, the Master is very good at avoiding certain death, but I think the Doctor would have given her a lift if she hadn't tried to make him kill Clara.
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Post by mrperson on Nov 9, 2015 15:17:25 GMT
Only downer was that I think forgiveness for Bonnie - a killer - was fine but there should have been some... well... consequences that she faced for what she did. Forgiveness is great and something I believe in for a redemptive justice system, but she pretty much got away with it, didn't she? This seems to be a common theme this year, there were no consequences for Missy in the opening episodes for either killing the Unit soldier or trying to get the doctor to kill Clara . I don't know if it's just Capaldi's doctor, but he seems to be strangely unaffected by any of the deaths around him. He only seems to be concerned by what happens to Clara - there wasn't even a mention about the deaths of the pilot/copilot on his plane (I checked, there were definitely only two chutes). This isn't a criticism btw way. I'm really enjoying series 9, but the doctor seems ... unmoved by what happens to others. Perhaps it's just me ... Cheers Tony But on the other hand, being moved was the entire plot driver for girl who died/woman who lived. He even said so himself - he was emotional and not thinking clearly when he gave Ashildir the chip.
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Post by icecreamdf on Nov 9, 2015 15:17:58 GMT
Bonnie was in charge though, so the radicals no longer have a leader. Maybe the radicals will try again, in which case their new leader will try to steal the Osgood box again, and the Doctor will make another speech. He implied that this isn't the first time its happenned. I suppose Zygon terrorists have a greater respect for chain of command than human terrorists. I wasn't sure how to interpret the line you refer to in the last sentence, if we're thinking of the same line. Something about it being the "fifteenth time". I wasn't sure if he meant he had tried giving those particular parties the peace speech fifteen times off-screen in that particular episode, failed and reset their memories, such that was presented was the sixteenth run at it. Or, that this is the sixteenth uprising he's had to deal with, and has wiped everyone else's memories each time. Or, I misunderstood whatever was said. Well, I think the idea is supposed to be that the Zygon terrorists aren't organized anymore, and they would have to start from scratch if they want to take over. I interpreted the "fifteenth time" line to mean that Zygons have tried to steal the Osgood box and start a war fifteen times before that (though presumably without as much public violence as this time), although your other interpretation makes sense too. Maybe Bonnie and Kate kept pushing the buttons, and the Doctor had to keep wiping their memories until he made a good enough speech.
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Post by acousticwolf on Nov 9, 2015 15:29:14 GMT
Well, the Doctor did abandon Missy on Skaro to face certain death at the hands of the Daleks. Granted, the Master is very good at avoiding certain death, but I think the Doctor would have given her a lift if she hadn't tried to make him kill Clara. That's true, but that was about Clara too wasn't it? Perhaps I should have just gone with the Unit soldier on that one lol ... But on the other hand, being moved was the entire plot driver for girl who died/woman who lived. He even said so himself - he was emotional and not thinking clearly when he gave Ashildir the chip. I thought the difference then was because he caught sight of himself and remembered "the face" and went all Timelord Victorious. There doesn't seem to be any middle ground with him - you can be moved without getting all emotional. Perhaps he's just taking some time to settle in with me Cheers Tony
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Post by icecreamdf on Nov 9, 2015 19:07:49 GMT
Well, the Doctor did abandon Missy on Skaro to face certain death at the hands of the Daleks. Granted, the Master is very good at avoiding certain death, but I think the Doctor would have given her a lift if she hadn't tried to make him kill Clara. That's true, but that was about Clara too wasn't it? Perhaps I should have just gone with the Unit soldier on that one lol ... Yeah, and she got away with killing an Osgood. The Doctor doesn't know about the UNIT soldiers and UNIT wasn't really in a position to punish Missy at the time. Besides, as The Sound of Drums showed us, the Doctor can forgive the Master for a lot. The Master may be a genocidal maniac, but she is still the Doctor's best friend.
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Post by Ela on Nov 10, 2015 6:17:13 GMT
Enjoyed The Zygon Invasion/Zygon Inversion. Watched them both tonight. But the title of this thread is driving me a little nuts. It's "inversion" not "inverstion".
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Post by mark687 on Nov 10, 2015 9:35:31 GMT
Enjoyed The Zygon Invasion/Zygon Inversion. Watched them both tonight. But the title of this thread is driving me a little nuts. It's "inversion" not "inverstion". Sorry Ela now Fixed
Regards
mark687
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Post by elkawho on Nov 10, 2015 15:00:09 GMT
I loved it. I love it when a story goes from being huge and epic in the first part to being intimate and personal in the second: we've been getting a lot of that since Moffatt took over and it is not something I'm getting tired of. I've seen a few reviews online slagging off the story for being pro-government and anti-revolution, but I didn't take that vibe away from it at all: it struck me that it was very much in favour of individualism but also being aware that you are a part of something bigger when you join a culture but that people can't make big decisions for you... a similar message that I got from Mr Harness's Kill The Moon last year. "Sorry, Clara - you have to make the decision on your own. I can't make it for you. You can get a consensus view, if you like, but ultimately you have to make it yourself." Only downer was that I think forgiveness for Bonnie - a killer - was fine but there should have been some... well... consequences that she faced for what she did. Forgiveness is great and something I believe in for a redemptive justice system, but she pretty much got away with it, didn't she? I agree. How many humans (and Zygons) were murdered because of her radicalism? How many "tumbleweeds" did we see in those 2 episodes? Whole towns! And then she just gets to turn into Osgood and go home. And why should we think that all the radical Zygons would follow her lead? That really did bother me. But otherwise I just loved it.
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Post by icecreamdf on Nov 10, 2015 16:22:29 GMT
Persuading her to change sides is much more productive than punishing her would be. If she was punished, then the other radical Zygons would see that they are indeed beyond forgiveness, and have no reason to surrender. Forgiving Bonnie was an important step towards peace.
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Post by mrperson on Nov 11, 2015 17:08:41 GMT
I loved it. I love it when a story goes from being huge and epic in the first part to being intimate and personal in the second: we've been getting a lot of that since Moffatt took over and it is not something I'm getting tired of. I've seen a few reviews online slagging off the story for being pro-government and anti-revolution, but I didn't take that vibe away from it at all: it struck me that it was very much in favour of individualism but also being aware that you are a part of something bigger when you join a culture but that people can't make big decisions for you... a similar message that I got from Mr Harness's Kill The Moon last year. "Sorry, Clara - you have to make the decision on your own. I can't make it for you. You can get a consensus view, if you like, but ultimately you have to make it yourself." Only downer was that I think forgiveness for Bonnie - a killer - was fine but there should have been some... well... consequences that she faced for what she did. Forgiveness is great and something I believe in for a redemptive justice system, but she pretty much got away with it, didn't she? I agree. How many humans (and Zygons) were murdered because of her radicalism? How many "tumbleweeds" did we see in those 2 episodes? Whole towns! And then she just gets to turn into Osgood and go home. And why should we think that all the radical Zygons would follow her lead? That really did bother me. But otherwise I just loved it. I think it was simply a matter of choosing between the lesser of two evils. She wouldn't call off her surprisingly obedient terrorist legions unless she was sure she was forgiven; they might not accept the peace unless she was truly forgiven either. Meanwhile, going "ha-HAH! Tricked you" after she called them off ran the risk of her being able to tell them "actually, continue that uprising" before being captured/killed.
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Post by icecreamdf on Nov 11, 2015 20:05:20 GMT
I agree. How many humans (and Zygons) were murdered because of her radicalism? How many "tumbleweeds" did we see in those 2 episodes? Whole towns! And then she just gets to turn into Osgood and go home. And why should we think that all the radical Zygons would follow her lead? That really did bother me. But otherwise I just loved it. I think it was simply a matter of choosing between the lesser of two evils. She wouldn't call off her surprisingly obedient terrorist legions unless she was sure she was forgiven; they might not accept the peace unless she was truly forgiven either. Meanwhile, going "ha-HAH! Tricked you" after she called them off ran the risk of her being able to tell them "actually, continue that uprising" before being captured/killed. I also don't think they really could do much to her after the Doctor just gave a speech about how punishing people for perceived wrongs starts an endless cycle. The whole point was that they could end the cycle by not retaliating.
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Post by barnabaslives on Nov 12, 2015 14:07:37 GMT
Just watched this, had been saving up both Zygon episodes for a quiet moment - I think I like these 2-parters better when I don't have to wait a week between parts 1&2 as that seems to be how I'm viewing Season 9 in general. Capaldi was amazing (though I think maybe somewhat underused until the end) - I just about got leaky-eyed at the big speech. Kudos on the writing as well.
I'm really liking Season 9... When I started it, I had the distinct impression that between seasons someone must have taken a particularly thoughtful inventory of the shows' strengths and weaknesses and then decided to really put their best foot forward, and every episode this season seems to reinforce that.
I think that might include that the Zygons might have been recognized as an asset - they're extremely striking visually, fearsome, and worth plenty of paranoid being shape-shifters that "one of your family members might suddenly turn into a Zygon and eat you". I hope things are like they seem with this that the Zygons have been elevated to a greater status among "monsters," even while we've also been meeting Zygons that are likeable. I thought they were extremely well presented and obviously intentionally.
Not sure I think The Doctor left any loose ends to The Zygon Inversion, it sort of sounds like the Zygon radicals might have a bit of an all-or-nothing attitude along with plans that depend too much on the Osgood Box, so their plans might easily have been fully deflated here (leaving a Zygon Osgood who doesn't seem to have much need for being punished into having a less antisocial attitude).
Raises my eyebrows a bit too that The Doctor is going to overlook the mayhem if I actually count the sparking mudpies, but I think The Doctor really does have his money where his mouth is on the issue of forgiveness and the degree to which he defuses a dangerous situation is impressive.
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