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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2018 4:41:38 GMT
After Deadly Assassin The Capitol became very bright and Over Lit I think the TimeLords after Assassin became afraid of the dark. I like that reading a lot. I'm a big fan of evolutionary worldbuilding, so I like to think that every interpretation we see on-screen is part of a greater whole (even if Assassin in my favourite). The Capitol's got to be a fairly big city, right? Modern Time Lords are all about Reason with a capital 'R', so maybe the further out or higher up one goes, the more brightly lit it becomes to reflect that "light of knowledge"? (Yes, witness as Wolfie tries to unravel the mysteries of Gallifreyan architecture. ) Or they just became fans of hardwood architecture and gyproc
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2018 4:50:03 GMT
I like that reading a lot. I'm a big fan of evolutionary worldbuilding, so I like to think that every interpretation we see on-screen is part of a greater whole (even if Assassin in my favourite). The Capitol's got to be a fairly big city, right? Modern Time Lords are all about Reason with a capital 'R', so maybe the further out or higher up one goes, the more brightly lit it becomes to reflect that "light of knowledge"? (Yes, witness as Wolfie tries to unravel the mysteries of Gallifreyan architecture. ) Or they just became fans of hardwood architecture and gyproc Well, drywall can cover a multitude of sins... At its simplest, it might just have been fathered by a group of Time Lords fed up with kicking their shins on furniture in the dark.
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bobod
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Post by bobod on Sept 4, 2018 6:25:19 GMT
I've never liked it. Any time I've seen it that hasn't changed.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2018 2:48:20 GMT
I'm talking about IF it'd been put out today, where I'd imagine a lot of things would be different in how it was told. The Deadly Assain wasn't a particularly well-liked story for years in fandom as Nightwingfan and Audity have pointed out for it's contiunty contradictions and depiction of the Time Lords, despite nowdays been regarded as one of the greats. If the internet had been around in 1976, would fandom still have come to accept it as a classic? Ah, my bad. And I agree with you: Hinchcliffe and Holmes were slagged off roundly at the time for what they did to continuity as it was known then, just as RTD and Moffat have been criticised for much the same thing. Often we need a few years leeway to really judge any kind of art. But fans are often - not always, but often - notoriously unforgiving about shake-ups to the status quo. (I'll put it this way: a few weeks ago I watched Hell Bent again for the first time since it aired in 2015. I remember at the time that it felt a little padded around the 30-40 minute mark and that I wasn't a fan of the Doctor suffering from PTSD and shooting the General. This time around I barely noticed the time passing and the idea of the Doctor being "damaged" by what he'd gone through in Heaven Sent made perfect sense, and "saving" Clara in the way he did felt right storywise as a reward to himself for what he'd been forced to suffer. Although I'd also have been equally happy for her to stay dead.) As a story, though, Deadly Assassin works as SF as well as a Doctor Who story: it upsets some of what we know about the Doctor's history and shows the Time Lords - who had mindwiped two companions and "killed" the Second Doctor - to be just as petty and fallible as humans or any other races we'd met in the show. It's good drama. I can't help but wonder - given how entrenched fandom has become - if people will even view things in retrospect, though. As Wolfie says, it's not everyone, but still, to me, it's worrisome. I can understand why Moffat brought Clara back, though. Heaven Sent is a bleak uncomfortable hour of television and Hell Bent is a rollercoaster ride into the abyss, on top of a tonally dark era and series. The light from the shutters and all that, for the audience, you need something to cushion the landing when The Doctor is placed in the darkest place he's ever been.
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Post by charlesuirdhein on Sept 5, 2018 3:08:17 GMT
I can understand why Moffat brought Clara back, though. Heaven Sent is a bleak uncomfortable hour of television and Hell Bent is a rollercoaster ride into the abyss, on top of a tonally dark era and series. The light from the shutters and all that, for the audience, you need something to cushion the landing when The Doctor is placed in the darkest place he's ever been.I absolutely 100 per cent disagree. If the story is good enough it is its own cushion and you don't need to bring anyone back. Trouble is, it isn't good enough, at least in comparison to what went before. Whatever, we have it and we live with it as it happened. It is what it is. I thought that this was Moffat's own version of "Rose gets to have her cake and eat it" moment with the creation of McDoctor for her. Your reading of it, while I disagree with it, is far more generous to him I feel
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2018 3:34:08 GMT
I can understand why Moffat brought Clara back, though. Heaven Sent is a bleak uncomfortable hour of television and Hell Bent is a rollercoaster ride into the abyss, on top of a tonally dark era and series. The light from the shutters and all that, for the audience, you need something to cushion the landing when The Doctor is placed in the darkest place he's ever been.I absolutely 100 per cent disagree. If the story is good enough it is its own cushion and you don't need to bring anyone back. Trouble is, it isn't good enough, at least in comparison to what went before. Whatever, we have it and we live with it as it happened. It is what it is. I thought that this was Moffat's own version of "Rose gets to have her cake and eat it" moment with the creation of McDoctor for her. Your reading of it, while I disagree with it, is far more generous to him I feel Eh, it's a family show, though. On a personal level, it worked for me because so much had happened in the intenrim. But then again, I was never really bothered by Clara's multiple depatures as much as other fans were. The ending of series eight just struck me as season cliffhanger and not following up on Danny's death and the toxic nature of Twelve and Clara's relationship in the long-term would have been dramitically unsatisfying for me.
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Post by charlesuirdhein on Sept 5, 2018 13:59:00 GMT
I absolutely 100 per cent disagree. If the story is good enough it is its own cushion and you don't need to bring anyone back. Trouble is, it isn't good enough, at least in comparison to what went before. Whatever, we have it and we live with it as it happened. It is what it is. I thought that this was Moffat's own version of "Rose gets to have her cake and eat it" moment with the creation of McDoctor for her. Your reading of it, while I disagree with it, is far more generous to him I feel Eh, it's a family show, though. On a personal level, it worked for me because so much had happened in the intenrim. But then again, I was never really bothered by Clara's multiple depatures as much as other fans were. The ending of series eight just struck me as season cliffhanger and not following up on Danny's death and the toxic nature of Twelve and Clara's relationship in the long-term would have been dramitically unsatisfying for me. I've never understood the "It's a family show" argument though in relation to death. People of all ages can deal with loss and death (and people of all ages also have difficulty with it, not just supposedly children) it's a necessary thing and shouldn't be shied away from, nor should grief. Indeed it's the Doctor's guilt and grief that drives the plot here, but I think he shouldn't have succeeded because there are lines that narratively shouldn't be crossed. That's my opinion though and YMMV.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2018 14:19:03 GMT
Eh, it's a family show, though. On a personal level, it worked for me because so much had happened in the intenrim. But then again, I was never really bothered by Clara's multiple depatures as much as other fans were. The ending of series eight just struck me as season cliffhanger and not following up on Danny's death and the toxic nature of Twelve and Clara's relationship in the long-term would have been dramitically unsatisfying for me. I've never understood the "It's a family show" argument though in relation to death. People of all ages can deal with loss and death (and people of all ages also have difficulty with it, not just supposedly children) it's a necessary thing and shouldn't be shied away from, nor should grief. Indeed it's the Doctor's guilt and grief that drives the plot here, but I think he shouldn't have succeeded because there are lines that narratively shouldn't be crossed. That's my opinion though and YMMV. Oh, I defiently think you should show the reality of death to children. But Clara's death isn't the same as say Bambi's Mother being shot in the woods after the first half an hour, this is a character on a television series that the younger audience has had a long-term investment over three series who had a slow and drawn out death followed by The Doctor subsquently being broken and spiralling off into madness, on top of an already dark series and era, with no the other companion figure to soften the blow, with no real levity inbetween. You've got hit the brake somehow.
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Post by charlesuirdhein on Sept 5, 2018 16:45:45 GMT
I've never understood the "It's a family show" argument though in relation to death. People of all ages can deal with loss and death (and people of all ages also have difficulty with it, not just supposedly children) it's a necessary thing and shouldn't be shied away from, nor should grief. Indeed it's the Doctor's guilt and grief that drives the plot here, but I think he shouldn't have succeeded because there are lines that narratively shouldn't be crossed. That's my opinion though and YMMV. Oh, I defiently think you should show the reality of death to children. But Clara's death isn't the same as say Bambi's Mother being shot in the woods after the first half an hour, this is a character on a television series that the younger audience has had a long-term investment over three series who had a slow and drawn out death followed by The Doctor subsquently being broken and spiralling off into madness, on top of an already dark series and era, with no the other companion figure to soften the blow, with no real levity inbetween. You've got hit the brake somehow. Yes, you do, but for me that brake isn't magically getting her back like that (yes, all the nonsense about still dead, heartbeats the Doctor's memory and so on is flim flam). There are "realistic" ways to deal with it that Capaldi is well capable of acting, even if Moffatt couldn't write it. Anyway. It's out there and done.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2018 16:56:09 GMT
Oh, I defiently think you should show the reality of death to children. But Clara's death isn't the same as say Bambi's Mother being shot in the woods after the first half an hour, this is a character on a television series that the younger audience has had a long-term investment over three series who had a slow and drawn out death followed by The Doctor subsquently being broken and spiralling off into madness, on top of an already dark series and era, with no the other companion figure to soften the blow, with no real levity inbetween. You've got hit the brake somehow. Yes, you do, but for me that brake isn't magically getting her back like that (yes, all the nonsense about still dead, heartbeats the Doctor's memory and so on is flim flam). There are "realistic" ways to deal with it that Capaldi is well capable of acting, even if Moffatt couldn't write it. Anyway. It's out there and done. you have to be careful with children watching.Though i agree Clara was long drawn out and blame the writers. As a six/seven year old i “saw” a character die off screen in South Pacific and i though he had really really really died the young me was forever saying prayers for him(Being Catholic)we all think kids can differentiate but it is a fine line .Later in life i realised it was only a movie and John kerr was truly alive and well 😝 Look at poor Adric.🤣 Didn’t move heaven and earth to save him eh
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Post by charlesuirdhein on Sept 5, 2018 17:15:21 GMT
Yes, you do, but for me that brake isn't magically getting her back like that (yes, all the nonsense about still dead, heartbeats the Doctor's memory and so on is flim flam). There are "realistic" ways to deal with it that Capaldi is well capable of acting, even if Moffatt couldn't write it. Anyway. It's out there and done. you have to be careful with children watching.Though i agree Clara was long drawn out and blame the writers. As a six/seven year old i “saw” a character die off screen in South Pacific and i though he had really really really died the young me was forever saying prayers for him(Being Catholic)we all think kids can differentiate but it is a fine line .Later in life i realised it was only a movie and John kerr was truly alive and well 😝 Look at poor Adric.🤣 Didn’t move heaven and earth to save him eh Maybe it's a cultural thing then. Also raised catholic, but in Ireland (so not like the rest of ye! LOL) and we're taught to assimilate death at an early age there. Who knows? I mean it really was a culture shock when I moved to the UK and met adults who had never been to a funeral.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2018 17:24:14 GMT
you have to be careful with children watching.Though i agree Clara was long drawn out and blame the writers. As a six/seven year old i “saw” a character die off screen in South Pacific and i though he had really really really died the young me was forever saying prayers for him(Being Catholic)we all think kids can differentiate but it is a fine line .Later in life i realised it was only a movie and John kerr was truly alive and well 😝 Look at poor Adric.🤣 Didn’t move heaven and earth to save him eh Maybe it's a cultural thing then. Also raised catholic, but in Ireland (so not like the rest of ye! LOL) and we're taught to assimilate death at an early age there. Who knows? I mean it really was a culture shock when I moved to the UK and met adults who had never been to a funeral. No i was used to death but didn’t differentiate between death on screen just that once mind you.I was saying rosaries and novenas that he would rest in peace lol. I think the thing was that they really did not know what to do with Clara and the actress was also indecisive. Its not as if they haven’t rewritten death Before i remember the Peri death that they did indeed ruin. Adric it was the first time in decades they had killed a companion. Nowadays they resurrect everyone...no guts to really let the impact of death settle in. Doctor Who has an added problem since he gained control of his TARDIS he can give all those crappy speeches about seeing them born and die etc etc blah blah blah.When he had no control not only did the companions fear they may never return home but he as a character did not really know if he would ever see those that left again
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2018 1:18:17 GMT
Oh, I defiently think you should show the reality of death to children. But Clara's death isn't the same as say Bambi's Mother being shot in the woods after the first half an hour, this is a character on a television series that the younger audience has had a long-term investment over three series who had a slow and drawn out death followed by The Doctor subsquently being broken and spiralling off into madness, on top of an already dark series and era, with no the other companion figure to soften the blow, with no real levity inbetween. You've got hit the brake somehow. Yes, you do, but for me that brake isn't magically getting her back like that (yes, all the nonsense about still dead, heartbeats the Doctor's memory and so on is flim flam). There are "realistic" ways to deal with it that Capaldi is well capable of acting, even if Moffatt couldn't write it. Anyway. It's out there and done. I honestly thought that The Return of Doctor Mysterio was a nice way of handling the same subject matter, albeit for a different character. Nardole's little soliloquy about how he'll be sad for a time and then move on felt more... genuine. At least for me. I can still remember my father's reaction to Peri's death in Mindwarp. He wasn't a fan of the show, see, he just watched it when I did, but the look on his face at the end of the story I will always remember. He just sat there through the credits processing what had just happened. I told him she came back (married to BRIAN BLESSED), but he just looked at me and said level and earnest -- "Well, it's not Peri, is it?" That genuineness is a large part of why I like Steve Lyons's MA retcon to the TV retcon -- the Doctor's memory is wiped so he doesn't know what happened to Peri (but strongly suspects she's dead). He's at the lowest point we've ever seen the character. Self-loathing, even contemplating suicide, but he picks himself up and propels himself through to safety. He chooses to live. "I am the Doctor," he says, "whether I like it or not." That's very powerful and really quite satisfying going from that period out into things like The Wormery or The Marian Conspiracy. He does it all on his own, so there's this real sense of personal triumph to his post-Trial years.
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Post by thethirddoctor on Sept 6, 2018 10:51:04 GMT
The Deadly Assain?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2018 11:36:53 GMT
We were all being polite🤭
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