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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2018 4:58:11 GMT
Would The Deadly Assassin be reapprassised by online fandom if it'd been made and released today?
I can't help but wonder. Modern fandom, given the internet, is defiently more reactive then and more connected then it used to be, where I can't help but feel the dust never quite has the chance to settle as it used to. In a way, it allows us to become more entrenched then fandom has been in the past.
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Post by J.A. Prentice on Sept 2, 2018 5:54:31 GMT
They'd hate it. A lot of evidence seems to suggest "fandom" hated it back then for the same reasons they'd hate it now: new Master's nothing like Delgado, Gallifrey doesn't match the version in The War Games, the Time Lords are just a load of wimpy old bureaucrats, and the regeneration limit is a retcon that contradicts Troughton's comments about Time Lords being immortal barring accidents and has no precedent in the show.
They'd be wrong (IMO) but that's how a certain chunk of Internet fandom would see it now and a lot of fans saw it then.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2018 7:19:20 GMT
The Deadly Assassin's an interesting choice because it's now got an entire subgenre devoted to it that didn't exist when it was originally made. That being, cyberpunk. Barring the Corporate villain, it fits all the normal criteria for stories modelled off the ur-example, William Gibson's Neuromancer. In exchange for his freedom, a social outcast carries out the wishes of his "employer" through a complex computer network against a virtual enemy. Thirty or forty years later and an additional fanbase has sprung up and formalised in the interim.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2018 8:05:49 GMT
They'd hate it. A lot of evidence seems to suggest "fandom" hated it back then for the same reasons they'd hate it now: new Master's nothing like Delgado, Gallifrey doesn't match the version in The War Games, the Time Lords are just a load of wimpy old bureaucrats, and the regeneration limit is a retcon that contradicts Troughton's comments about Time Lords being immortal barring accidents and has no precedent in the show. They'd be wrong (IMO) but that's how a certain chunk of Internet fandom would see it now and a lot of fans saw it then. Never listen to Fandom. I am a fan i watched it first time around and i loved the story i enjoyed there was a finality to regeneration,immortal characters are absolutely boring in the wrong run.Characters that cannot die,boring.The scenery of Gallifrey was a nice change from the opulence of Three Doctors and that the constant regeneration just produces stagnancy and decay.Loved the story then love it now. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2018 8:59:47 GMT
They'd hate it. A lot of evidence seems to suggest "fandom" hated it back then for the same reasons they'd hate it now: new Master's nothing like Delgado, Gallifrey doesn't match the version in The War Games, the Time Lords are just a load of wimpy old bureaucrats, and the regeneration limit is a retcon that contradicts Troughton's comments about Time Lords being immortal barring accidents and has no precedent in the show. They'd be wrong (IMO) but that's how a certain chunk of Internet fandom would see it now and a lot of fans saw it then. Never listen to Fandom. I am a fan i watched it first time around and i loved the story i enjoyed there was a finality to regeneration,immortal characters are absolutely boring in the wrong run.Characters that cannot die,boring.The scenery of Gallifrey was a nice change from the opulence of Three Doctors and that the constant regeneration just produces stagnancy and decay.Loved the story then love it now. Well, I think the late, great Terry Pratchett said it best: It's this great, big mass of human emotion. Sometimes it gets a bit difficult to distinguish which from what, but weird is not bad and I've always got two rules: - Chat with the fandom, pass on hatedom;
- Above all, don't mistake hatedom for the fandom.
It's never bad that something is your favourite. You're allowed to like things. If someone has to insist that something you like is bad, that's their problem. We're all here because we want to share in that warm, smiling glow that really good stories can give us. You don't need anyone's permission to take joy from the things that you love. |
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shutupbanks
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Post by shutupbanks on Sept 2, 2018 9:41:00 GMT
I think that if it was being reappraised today the obvious thing would be the lack of female characters in it, apart from Helen Blatch as the Voice of the Matrix. Which, even by "the standards of the time" is pretty appalling.
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Post by thethirddoctor on Sept 2, 2018 9:44:22 GMT
Fandom would hate it. The DWM Timeteam criticised it due to the male cast. But, that's the whole point. Gallifrey (at least the people in charge) was a Gentlemens Only club.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2018 9:56:01 GMT
I think that if it was being reappraised today the obvious thing would be the lack of female characters in it, apart from Helen Blatch as the Voice of the Matrix. Which, even by "the standards of the time" is pretty appalling. I'm talking about IF it'd been put out today, where I'd imagine a lot of things would be different in how it was told. The Deadly Assain wasn't a particularly well-liked story for years in fandom as Nightwingfan and Audity have pointed out for it's contiunty contradictions and depiction of the Time Lords, despite nowdays been regarded as one of the greats. If the internet had been around in 1976, would fandom still have come to accept it as a classic? |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2018 10:02:19 GMT
Never listen to Fandom. I am a fan i watched it first time around and i loved the story i enjoyed there was a finality to regeneration,immortal characters are absolutely boring in the wrong run.Characters that cannot die,boring.The scenery of Gallifrey was a nice change from the opulence of Three Doctors and that the constant regeneration just produces stagnancy and decay.Loved the story then love it now. Well, I think the late, great Terry Pratchett said it best: It's this great, big mass of human emotion. Sometimes it gets a bit difficult to distinguish which from what, but weird is not bad and I've always got two rules: - Chat with the fandom, pass on hatedom;
- Above all, don't mistake hatedom for the fandom.
It's never bad that something is your favourite. You're allowed to like things. If someone has to insist that something you like is bad, that's their problem. We're all here because we want to share in that warm, smiling glow that really good stories can give us. You don't need anyone's permission to take joy from the things that you love. That's a good point and something we tend to forget with internet fandom. It's easy to get lost in the noise. |
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shutupbanks
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There’s a horror movie called Alien? That’s really offensive. No wonder everyone keeps invading you.
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Post by shutupbanks on Sept 2, 2018 10:32:43 GMT
I think that if it was being reappraised today the obvious thing would be the lack of female characters in it, apart from Helen Blatch as the Voice of the Matrix. Which, even by "the standards of the time" is pretty appalling. I'm talking about IF it'd been put out today, where I'd imagine a lot of things would be different in how it was told. The Deadly Assain wasn't a particularly well-liked story for years in fandom as Nightwingfan and Audity have pointed out for it's contiunty contradictions and depiction of the Time Lords, despite nowdays been regarded as one of the greats. If the internet had been around in 1976, would fandom still have come to accept it as a classic? Ah, my bad. And I agree with you: Hinchcliffe and Holmes were slagged off roundly at the time for what they did to continuity as it was known then, just as RTD and Moffat have been criticised for much the same thing. Often we need a few years leeway to really judge any kind of art. But fans are often - not always, but often - notoriously unforgiving about shake-ups to the status quo. (I'll put it this way: a few weeks ago I watched Hell Bent again for the first time since it aired in 2015. I remember at the time that it felt a little padded around the 30-40 minute mark and that I wasn't a fan of the Doctor suffering from PTSD and shooting the General. This time around I barely noticed the time passing and the idea of the Doctor being "damaged" by what he'd gone through in Heaven Sent made perfect sense, and "saving" Clara in the way he did felt right storywise as a reward to himself for what he'd been forced to suffer. Although I'd also have been equally happy for her to stay dead.) As a story, though, Deadly Assassin works as SF as well as a Doctor Who story: it upsets some of what we know about the Doctor's history and shows the Time Lords - who had mindwiped two companions and "killed" the Second Doctor - to be just as petty and fallible as humans or any other races we'd met in the show. It's good drama. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2018 11:01:40 GMT
I'm talking about IF it'd been put out today, where I'd imagine a lot of things would be different in how it was told. The Deadly Assain wasn't a particularly well-liked story for years in fandom as Nightwingfan and Audity have pointed out for it's contiunty contradictions and depiction of the Time Lords, despite nowdays been regarded as one of the greats. If the internet had been around in 1976, would fandom still have come to accept it as a classic? As a story, though, Deadly Assassin works as SF as well as a Doctor Who story: it upsets some of what we know about the Doctor's history and shows the Time Lords - who had mindwiped two companions and "killed" the Second Doctor - to be just as petty and fallible as humans or any other races we'd met in the show. It's good drama. I think also a weak Gallifrey full of squabbling petty TimeLords and Timeladys(my bad) is also better drama.If Tom Baker had known the Time War was coming he would probably have let the master pull the plug and kept it pulled 😂... |
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Post by omega on Sept 2, 2018 11:06:41 GMT
Fandom would hate it. The DWM Timeteam criticised it due to the male cast. But, that's the whole point. Gallifrey (at least the people in charge) was a Gentlemens Only club. Which is interesting given that later stories present gender as a non-issue in Gallifreyan society and politics, long before gender bending regeneration was entertained in any official material. In The Five Doctors Flavia is on the High Council, the Inquisitor in the Doctor's trial is Lynda Bellingham, not to mention the novels and audios present Romana as President. Any issue rivals take with Romana is due to her policies that upset tradition or the personal interests of other influential Gallifreyans. The issues Time Lords hold against Leela are entirely around her not being from Gallifrey, with many treating her like an unwelcome visitor when she's been around for Ohm knows how long and has been key in preventing many disasters from affecting or bringing down Gallifrey. A number of characters who have tried to undermine Romana are female, like Darkel, Pandora and Livia. |
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Post by omega on Sept 2, 2018 11:34:16 GMT
One of the inconsistencies is how Time Lords react to outsiders, specifically the Doctor's companions. In The War Games Jamie and Zoe were mindwiped of their time with the Doctor, bar their initial story, and returned home. In Hand of Fear the Doctor drops Sarah off at home (or so he thinks) before he goes to Gallifrey for The Deadly Assassin because of their isolationist policy. However this is the last we see of this, with Leela in Invasion of Time and Nyssa in Arc of Infinity being treated more as minor irritants rather than an urgent matter of wipe and return (not that Nyssa had a home to return to). The Fourth Doctor doesn't appear to make any effort to even drop Leela off somewhere while he carries out his plan with the Vardans. Trial of a Time Lord is a bit different, since it's a Time Lord space station and Mel was summoned to provide testimony.
What's interesting is Ace. It's well known that the unmade season 27 would have seen her go to the Time Lord Academy. This was before the New Adventures, so at this point Romana was still in E-Space as far as fans were concerned. All we have to go on is the audio version of Thin Ice, which ends with Ace staying on with the Doctor and the the assessor being more annoyed with the Doctor's involvement in events rather than an outsider being an applicant. In light of Romana gaining the presidency (as depicted in the novels and audios), it's possible an exception was made for Ace at some point by Romana. The second season of the Gallifrey audios has a thread about the Academy being opened to peoples from other worlds, with conflict stemming from how this upsets Gallifreyan tradition.
By the Eighth Doctor, companions visiting Gallifrey is more about the situation rather than a blanket treatment of companions. Charley's situation if unique and needed drastic measures, but in The Eleven from Doom Coalition it's more about the Doctor finding the Time Lords stuffy and limiting, with Liv getting little of the anti-human treatment.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2018 12:04:00 GMT
Fandom would hate it. The DWM Timeteam criticised it due to the male cast. But, that's the whole point. Gallifrey (at least the people in charge) was a Gentlemens Only club. Which is interesting given that later stories present gender as a non-issue in Gallifreyan society and politics, long before gender bending regeneration was entertained in any official material. In The Five Doctors Flavia is on the High Council, the Inquisitor in the Doctor's trial is Lynda Bellingham, not to mention the novels and audios present Romana as President. Any issue rivals take with Romana is due to her policies that upset tradition or the personal interests of other influential Gallifreyans. The issues Time Lords hold against Leela are entirely around her not being from Gallifrey, with many treating her like an unwelcome visitor when she's been around for Ohm knows how long and has been key in preventing many disasters from affecting or bringing down Gallifrey. A number of characters who have tried to undermine Romana are female, like Darkel, Pandora and Livia. But they are now both male and female so the ladies are all men and the men are all women so where is the problem so it was probably all women in the council originally....lol😝 you know the TV series really has nuked the fridge. |
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Post by omega on Sept 2, 2018 13:04:56 GMT
Another factor might be that all the things that made it different and exciting when it first aired have been done many times since. The Doctor travelling solo, exploring Gallifreyan society, a battle in a mind scape etc. The trope that comes to mind is Seinfeld is Unfunny, where the first instance is deemed derivative because the elements have been used many times later. Just in the Classic Series the Gallifrey setting showed diminishing returns each time. It’s no wonder the Seventh Doctor avoided it on screen.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2018 13:09:09 GMT
Another factor might be that all the things that made it different and exciting when it first aired have been done many times since. The Doctor travelling solo, exploring Gallifreyan society, a battle in a mind scape etc. The trope that comes to mind is Seinfeld is Unfunny, where the first instance is deemed derivative because the elements have been used many times later. Just in the Classic Series the Gallifrey setting showed diminishing returns each time. It’s no wonder the Seventh Doctor avoided it on screen. After Deadly Assassin The Capitol became very bright and Over Lit I think the TimeLords after Assassin became afraid of the dark. |
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Post by thethirddoctor on Sept 2, 2018 13:10:26 GMT
Fandom would hate it. The DWM Timeteam criticised it due to the male cast. But, that's the whole point. Gallifrey (at least the people in charge) was a Gentlemens Only club. Which is interesting given that later stories present gender as a non-issue in Gallifreyan society and politics, long before gender bending regeneration was entertained in any official material. In The Five Doctors Flavia is on the High Council, the Inquisitor in the Doctor's trial is Lynda Bellingham, not to mention the novels and audios present Romana as President. Any issue rivals take with Romana is due to her policies that upset tradition or the personal interests of other influential Gallifreyans. The issues Time Lords hold against Leela are entirely around her not being from Gallifrey, with many treating her like an unwelcome visitor when she's been around for Ohm knows how long and has been key in preventing many disasters from affecting or bringing down Gallifrey. A number of characters who have tried to undermine Romana are female, like Darkel, Pandora and Livia. That's because they learnt from their mistakes. The Doctor proved that the TimeLords were dated/obsolete. The next change was Rodan in Invasion of Time. Leelas (DNA/attitute) influence in Invasion of Time probably affected TimeLady influences for generations to come. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2018 13:41:12 GMT
Which is interesting given that later stories present gender as a non-issue in Gallifreyan society and politics, long before gender bending regeneration was entertained in any official material. In The Five Doctors Flavia is on the High Council, the Inquisitor in the Doctor's trial is Lynda Bellingham, not to mention the novels and audios present Romana as President. Any issue rivals take with Romana is due to her policies that upset tradition or the personal interests of other influential Gallifreyans. The issues Time Lords hold against Leela are entirely around her not being from Gallifrey, with many treating her like an unwelcome visitor when she's been around for Ohm knows how long and has been key in preventing many disasters from affecting or bringing down Gallifrey. A number of characters who have tried to undermine Romana are female, like Darkel, Pandora and Livia. That's because they learnt from their mistakes. The Doctor proved that the TimeLords were dated/obsolete. The next change was Rodan in Invasion of Time. Leelas (DNA/attitute) influence in Invasion of Time probably affected TimeLady influences for generations to come. I think the original change happened when the man who called himself Romanavoratrelundar decided to hell with it....,,, |
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Post by omega on Sept 2, 2018 20:24:58 GMT
That's because they learnt from their mistakes. The Doctor proved that the TimeLords were dated/obsolete. The next change was Rodan in Invasion of Time. Leelas (DNA/attitute) influence in Invasion of Time probably affected TimeLady influences for generations to come. I think the original change happened when the man who called himself Romanavoratrelundar decided to hell with it....,,, Or as he preferred to be called, Fred. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2018 22:38:34 GMT
Another factor might be that all the things that made it different and exciting when it first aired have been done many times since. The Doctor travelling solo, exploring Gallifreyan society, a battle in a mind scape etc. The trope that comes to mind is Seinfeld is Unfunny, where the first instance is deemed derivative because the elements have been used many times later. Just in the Classic Series the Gallifrey setting showed diminishing returns each time. It’s no wonder the Seventh Doctor avoided it on screen. After Deadly Assassin The Capitol became very bright and Over Lit I think the TimeLords after Assassin became afraid of the dark. I like that reading a lot. I'm a big fan of evolutionary worldbuilding, so I like to think that every interpretation we see on-screen is part of a greater whole (even if Assassin in my favourite). The Capitol's got to be a fairly big city, right? Modern Time Lords are all about Reason with a capital 'R', so maybe the further out or higher up one goes, the more brightly lit it becomes to reflect that "light of knowledge"? (Yes, witness as Wolfie tries to unravel the mysteries of Gallifreyan architecture.  ) |
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