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Post by escalus5 on Sept 10, 2018 14:25:19 GMT
I've been scratching around trying to see where the reputation initially came from and I think it's from criticism at the time it was initially broadcast. I have to wonder if audiences watching The Gunfighters in the 1960s after the boom of Westerns in the previous decade -- Gunsmoke, Maverick, The Rifleman, Trackdown, Have Gun - Will Travel, Tombstone Territory, The Life and Legend of Wyatt Erp, etc. -- were just feeling a bit tired of the genre in general. But how many of those programs were being aired in the UK? Gunsmoke and possibly Maverick, but were any of the others? I'm not from the UK, so I may be way out of my depth here. Of course, the U.S. didn't get Doctor Who on TV until well into the 1970s, so the American audiences that would have felt western fatigue didn't even see the serial when it first aired. I like The Gunfighters, especially the irreverent approach to Holliday and Earp -- way ahead of its time considering '70s films like Doc that challenged the myths surrounding these deeply flawed historical figures.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2018 23:48:13 GMT
I've been scratching around trying to see where the reputation initially came from and I think it's from criticism at the time it was initially broadcast. I have to wonder if audiences watching The Gunfighters in the 1960s after the boom of Westerns in the previous decade -- Gunsmoke, Maverick, The Rifleman, Trackdown, Have Gun - Will Travel, Tombstone Territory, The Life and Legend of Wyatt Erp, etc. -- were just feeling a bit tired of the genre in general. But how many of those programs were being aired in the UK? Gunsmoke and possibly Maverick, but were any of the others? I'm not from the UK, so I may be way out of my depth here. Of course, the U.S. didn't get Doctor Who on TV until well into the 1970s, so the American audiences that would have felt western fatigue didn't even see the serial when it first aired. I like The Gunfighters, especially the irreverent approach to Holliday and Earp -- way ahead of its time considering '70s films like Doc that challenged the myths surrounding these deeply flawed historical figures. It's a good question, though. You have to remember that not only was it television, but films, radio and novels as well, so saturation in the United Kingdom may have likewise come across in other mediums. *twiddles fingers* Through the magic mirror of the internet... *rummage* *rummage* *rummage* The British Film Institute's Screenonline site has this to say in the subject: So maybe not on the BBC, but ITV was a strong contender.
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Post by number13 on Sept 11, 2018 10:59:32 GMT
But how many of those programs were being aired in the UK? Gunsmoke and possibly Maverick, but were any of the others? I'm not from the UK, so I may be way out of my depth here. Of course, the U.S. didn't get Doctor Who on TV until well into the 1970s, so the American audiences that would have felt western fatigue didn't even see the serial when it first aired. I like The Gunfighters, especially the irreverent approach to Holliday and Earp -- way ahead of its time considering '70s films like Doc that challenged the myths surrounding these deeply flawed historical figures. It's a good question, though. You have to remember that not only was it television, but films, radio and novels as well, so saturation in the United Kingdom may have likewise come across in other mediums. *twiddles fingers* Through the magic mirror of the internet... *rummage* *rummage* *rummage* The British Film Institute's Screenonline site has this to say in the subject: So maybe not on the BBC, but ITV was a strong contender. On the BBC, I remember we had three series: 'The Virginian', followed by a spin-off series I can't remember the name of and 'Alias Smith and Jones' for a long time after that, though no appearances from the Earps that I recall. But it seemed there was a movie Western on BBC1 on Saturday afternoons more often than not so the genre was presumably still popular. I certainly watched!
Those 1980s polls which rated 'The Gunfighters' so low were presumably full of votes from fans who were far too young to have seen it on its sole broadcast and knew the story only from fan copies of the soundtrack. And if they didn't like that song...!
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2018 0:47:48 GMT
It's a good question, though. You have to remember that not only was it television, but films, radio and novels as well, so saturation in the United Kingdom may have likewise come across in other mediums. *twiddles fingers* Through the magic mirror of the internet... *rummage* *rummage* *rummage* The British Film Institute's Screenonline site has this to say in the subject: So maybe not on the BBC, but ITV was a strong contender. On the BBC, I remember we had three series: 'The Virginian', followed by a spin-off series I can't remember the name of and 'Alias Smith and Jones' for a long time after that, though no appearances from the Earps that I recall. But it seemed there was a movie Western on BBC1 on Saturday afternoons more often than not so the genre was presumably still popular. I certainly watched!
Those 1980s polls which rated 'The Gunfighters' so low were presumably full of votes from fans who were far too young to have seen it on its sole broadcast and knew the story only from fan copies of the soundtrack. And if they didn't like that song...! I did a quick Google search of Alias Smith and Jones and I'm very tempted to see what a series about a couple guys called Hannibal and Kid were all about (that and Glen Larson's series tend to be, in the least, very watchable). ...they hadn't a hope! I didn't know about those 1980s polls, I was initially prompted by the BBC's Audience Research Report (as quoted here) from the time it was broadcast. It's fascinating to see the reputations of various stories and how they've evolved since. The Tomb of the Cybermen had an almost legendary status before it was found in '92 and somehow it's managed to live up to the hype generated around it. Contrast that with something like The Web Planet which was extraordinarily popular at the time and even generated a few imitators in other series (TV21 tried their hand at it for one), but hasn't... withstood... the test... of... time. It'll be interesting to see how lesser-chatted-about stories like The Ark and Enemy of the World stand up now they've become available. I used to hear quite a lot about The Web of Fear, but now I'm hearing quite a bit about Enemy as well.
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Post by constonks on Sept 12, 2018 2:22:27 GMT
On the BBC, I remember we had three series: 'The Virginian', followed by a spin-off series I can't remember the name of and 'Alias Smith and Jones' for a long time after that, though no appearances from the Earps that I recall. But it seemed there was a movie Western on BBC1 on Saturday afternoons more often than not so the genre was presumably still popular. I certainly watched!
Those 1980s polls which rated 'The Gunfighters' so low were presumably full of votes from fans who were far too young to have seen it on its sole broadcast and knew the story only from fan copies of the soundtrack. And if they didn't like that song...! I did a quick Google search of Alias Smith and Jones and I'm very tempted to see what a series about a couple guys called Hannibal and Kid were all about (that and Glen Larson's series tend to be, in the least, very watchable). ...they hadn't a hope! I didn't know about those 1980s polls, I was initially prompted by the BBC's Audience Research Report (as quoted here) from the time it was broadcast. It's fascinating to see the reputations of various stories and how they've evolved since. The Tomb of the Cybermen had an almost legendary status before it was found in '92 and somehow it's managed to live up to the hype generated around it. Contrast that with something like The Web Planet which was extraordinarily popular at the time and even generated a few imitators in other series (TV21 tried their hand at it for one), but hasn't... withstood... the test... of... time. It'll be interesting to see how lesser-chatted-about stories like The Ark and Enemy of the World stand up now they've become available. I used to hear quite a lot about The Web of Fear, but now I'm hearing quite a bit about Enemy as well. I will say, I loved Web on first listen and enjoyed Enemy but thought both were equally spectacular when they were found. I think Enemy just pops more with visuals. (Probably because of Patrick Troughton.)
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2018 3:37:41 GMT
I did a quick Google search of Alias Smith and Jones and I'm very tempted to see what a series about a couple guys called Hannibal and Kid were all about (that and Glen Larson's series tend to be, in the least, very watchable). ...they hadn't a hope! I didn't know about those 1980s polls, I was initially prompted by the BBC's Audience Research Report (as quoted here) from the time it was broadcast. It's fascinating to see the reputations of various stories and how they've evolved since. The Tomb of the Cybermen had an almost legendary status before it was found in '92 and somehow it's managed to live up to the hype generated around it. Contrast that with something like The Web Planet which was extraordinarily popular at the time and even generated a few imitators in other series (TV21 tried their hand at it for one), but hasn't... withstood... the test... of... time. It'll be interesting to see how lesser-chatted-about stories like The Ark and Enemy of the World stand up now they've become available. I used to hear quite a lot about The Web of Fear, but now I'm hearing quite a bit about Enemy as well. I will say, I loved Web on first listen and enjoyed Enemy but thought both were equally spectacular when they were found. I think Enemy just pops more with visuals. (Probably because of Patrick Troughton.) The Web Planet's got this brilliant devil-may-care attitude to it, doesn't it? Nevermind the budget, nevermind the practicalities, we'll make this far out concept work as best we can and they do remarkably well. Storywise, I particularly like how it uses the Doctor as a codebreaker under duress and Barbara takes up command of the shattered Menopteran spearhead. Vortis is one of those planets I wish we had Google Earth mockups of in this day of VR and PC-powered CGI, just to wander around in. Everything's been created from scratch, so it all feels very unreal and otherworldly. Visually, The Enemy of the World I think is helped quite a bit by being an extrapolation of then-contemporary Earth. There's a lot that the production can lean on for shorthand; the offices look like offices, the estates look like estates and so on. The style they chose to represent it reminds me of, well, TV21's take on the future, which, unfortunately, I don't think has a name right now. Sort of this evolution from Raygun Gothic ( Incredibles 2 had elements of it, most recently). I'm really glad we have the full episodes now because Letts does some really ingenious sleight-of-hand with (comparatively) very little technical power. Rather than cutting in a piece of stock footage, when Jamie throws the bomb, there's a back projection on the set and soil is tossed up onto the veranda. It'd be a great example for a film course.
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Post by constonks on Sept 12, 2018 3:50:34 GMT
I will say, I loved Web on first listen and enjoyed Enemy but thought both were equally spectacular when they were found. I think Enemy just pops more with visuals. (Probably because of Patrick Troughton.) The Web Planet(...) Well, those are all good thoughts (and a super cool picture) but I totally meant Web of Fear not The Web Planet. I should probably pay more attention - it's like saying Invasion and not clarifying if it's the Cybermen, the Dinosaurs, the Zygons or Christmas.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2018 4:08:30 GMT
Well, those are all good thoughts (and a super cool picture) but I totally meant Web of Fear not The Web Planet. I should probably pay more attention - it's like saying Invasion and not clarifying if it's the Cybermen, the Dinosaurs, the Zygons or Christmas. Well, damn. Never mind then. The Web of Fear's very cool as well. I can see what you mean by the production values. They're both good -- really good -- but there's more scope for imaginative gadgetry in Enemy's near future setting.
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Post by number13 on Sept 12, 2018 9:51:17 GMT
On the BBC, I remember we had three series: 'The Virginian', followed by a spin-off series I can't remember the name of and 'Alias Smith and Jones' for a long time after that, though no appearances from the Earps that I recall. But it seemed there was a movie Western on BBC1 on Saturday afternoons more often than not so the genre was presumably still popular. I certainly watched!
Those 1980s polls which rated 'The Gunfighters' so low were presumably full of votes from fans who were far too young to have seen it on its sole broadcast and knew the story only from fan copies of the soundtrack. And if they didn't like that song...! I did a quick Google search of Alias Smith and Jones and I'm very tempted to see what a series about a couple guys called Hannibal and Kid were all about (that and Glen Larson's series tend to be, in the least, very watchable). ...they hadn't a hope! I didn't know about those 1980s polls, I was initially prompted by the BBC's Audience Research Report (as quoted here) from the time it was broadcast. It's fascinating to see the reputations of various stories and how they've evolved since. The Tomb of the Cybermen had an almost legendary status before it was found in '92 and somehow it's managed to live up to the hype generated around it. Contrast that with something like The Web Planet which was extraordinarily popular at the time and even generated a few imitators in other series (TV21 tried their hand at it for one), but hasn't... withstood... the test... of... time. It'll be interesting to see how lesser-chatted-about stories like The Ark and Enemy of the World stand up now they've become available. I used to hear quite a lot about The Web of Fear, but now I'm hearing quite a bit about Enemy as well. ASAJ was a fun series, a Western comedy adventure about two 'bad guys' going straight who were no doubt a lot more likeable than their real-life personas back in the Old West!
I still like 'The Web Planet' very very much! Apart from the Animus-on-a-string in ep 6 and a couple of obvious 'Can we afford to do a second take please?' 'No.' moments I think it's a classic. Science fiction theatre made with no budget to speak of, but top acting and a production team with huge imagination and nerves of steel.
I agree about the production tricks in 'The Enemy of the World' to do 'future-Bond-on-a-budget' and there's another one - they didn't have to pay out for a big name actor to play the villain, did they? Seriously, that must have helped with affording the relatively large guest cast. And the clever writing which almost breaks the story into two halves, with about a 50% supporting cast switchover between episodes 1-3 and 4-6.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2018 10:31:43 GMT
I did a quick Google search of Alias Smith and Jones and I'm very tempted to see what a series about a couple guys called Hannibal and Kid were all about (that and Glen Larson's series tend to be, in the least, very watchable). ...they hadn't a hope! I didn't know about those 1980s polls, I was initially prompted by the BBC's Audience Research Report (as quoted here) from the time it was broadcast. It's fascinating to see the reputations of various stories and how they've evolved since. The Tomb of the Cybermen had an almost legendary status before it was found in '92 and somehow it's managed to live up to the hype generated around it. Contrast that with something like The Web Planet which was extraordinarily popular at the time and even generated a few imitators in other series (TV21 tried their hand at it for one), but hasn't... withstood... the test... of... time. It'll be interesting to see how lesser-chatted-about stories like The Ark and Enemy of the World stand up now they've become available. I used to hear quite a lot about The Web of Fear, but now I'm hearing quite a bit about Enemy as well. ASAJ was a fun series, a Western comedy adventure about two 'bad guys' going straight who were no doubt a lot more likeable than their real-life personas back in the Old West! I still like 'The Web Planet' very very much! Apart from the Animus-on-a-string in ep 6 and a couple of obvious 'Can we afford to do a second take please?' 'No.' moments I think it's a classic. Science fiction theatre made with no budget to speak of, but top acting and a production team with huge imagination and nerves of steel. I agree about the production tricks in 'The Enemy of the World' to do 'future-Bond-on-a-budget' and there's another one - they didn't have to pay out for a big name actor to play the villain, did they? Seriously, that must have helped with affording the relatively large guest cast. And the clever writing which almost breaks the story into two halves, with about a 50% supporting cast switchover between episodes 1-3 and 4-6. I'll try and hunt down a few episodes to have a look. I've had a lot of fun with another series he did, It Takes a Thief, that was produced a couple years earlier. Oh, it's the ultimate in science fiction acting. It's a real credit to everyone involved that even in spite of a few technical hiccoughs, it all holds together remarkably well. The regulars do a brilliant job giving the aliens a serious sense of threat. Bill Hartnell, in particular, gives the disembodied voice of the Animus a real sense of power over him and the TARDIS, every little squirreled away gambit carefully calculated and planned. The only thing I think it's really missing once we reach it in the Carcinome are a few Axos-style visual effects to hide the strings. David Whitaker's one of my favourite writers for very early Who. He has a style of writing that I've just fallen head-over-heels in love with over the years and Enemy's a great demonstration of his ability to bring in characters that all feel well-rounded and relevant. Right down to the comedy relief cook who just takes life with a stick of paste. Astrid feels like an Avengers girl for the 2010--Oh. Right. Well, today's times, I guess. Pat Troughton's such a marvellously versatile actor too, it's really fun to see him switch between the ethically wary Doctor and the gleefully devious Salamander (or the Doctor as Salamander).
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Post by Timelord007 on Sept 12, 2018 10:45:26 GMT
Sticking the Doctor in the wild west during the shootout at the O.K Corral should have been less lighthearted & tonally darker as it deals with violent themes, but nah instead it's played for laughs & that song Ballad of the Last Chance Saloon grates the hell on my nerves to the point had mute the sound, i wish the DVD had given us a switch off option cause i loathe that song as much as The Pirates - Gallifreyan buccaneer.
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Post by number13 on Sept 12, 2018 11:01:12 GMT
ASAJ was a fun series, a Western comedy adventure about two 'bad guys' going straight who were no doubt a lot more likeable than their real-life personas back in the Old West! I still like 'The Web Planet' very very much! Apart from the Animus-on-a-string in ep 6 and a couple of obvious 'Can we afford to do a second take please?' 'No.' moments I think it's a classic. Science fiction theatre made with no budget to speak of, but top acting and a production team with huge imagination and nerves of steel. I agree about the production tricks in 'The Enemy of the World' to do 'future-Bond-on-a-budget' and there's another one - they didn't have to pay out for a big name actor to play the villain, did they? Seriously, that must have helped with affording the relatively large guest cast. And the clever writing which almost breaks the story into two halves, with about a 50% supporting cast switchover between episodes 1-3 and 4-6. I'll try and hunt down a few episodes to have a look. I've had a lot of fun with another series he did, It Takes a Thief, that was produced a couple years earlier. Oh, it's the ultimate in science fiction acting. It's a real credit to everyone involved that even in spite of a few technical hiccoughs, it all holds together remarkably well. The regulars do a brilliant job giving the aliens a serious sense of threat. Bill Hartnell, in particular, gives the disembodied voice of the Animus a real sense of power over him and the TARDIS, every little squirreled away gambit carefully calculated and planned. The only thing I think it's really missing once we reach it in the Carcinome are a few Axos-style visual effects to hide the strings. Oh yes that's what it should have looked like! Maybe when the complete season comes out on Blu-Ray we'll get a 'new special effects' option. (I'm assuming we will get all the classic seasons as Blu-Ray sets? Hope so, I'm already mentally allocating Season 1-26 shelf space on the extra shelves I still haven't put up. )
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Post by Deleted on Sept 13, 2018 4:02:35 GMT
I'll try and hunt down a few episodes to have a look. I've had a lot of fun with another series he did, It Takes a Thief, that was produced a couple years earlier. Oh, it's the ultimate in science fiction acting. It's a real credit to everyone involved that even in spite of a few technical hiccoughs, it all holds together remarkably well. The regulars do a brilliant job giving the aliens a serious sense of threat. Bill Hartnell, in particular, gives the disembodied voice of the Animus a real sense of power over him and the TARDIS, every little squirreled away gambit carefully calculated and planned. The only thing I think it's really missing once we reach it in the Carcinome are a few Axos-style visual effects to hide the strings. Oh yes that's what it should have looked like! Maybe when the complete season comes out on Blu-Ray we'll get a 'new special effects' option. (I'm assuming we will get all the classic seasons as Blu-Ray sets? Hope so, I'm already mentally allocating Season 1-26 shelf space on the extra shelves I still haven't put up. ) Fingers crossed. Failing that, there's a brilliant concept album out by Jim Mortimore (he did the scores for Davros, Project: Twilight, Embrace the Darkness, et al.) which reimagines The Web Planet as this grand, budgetless four-hour film.
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Post by Star Platinum on Sept 13, 2018 7:55:48 GMT
Sticking the Doctor in the wild west during the shootout at the O.K Corral should have been less lighthearted & tonally darker as it deals with violent themes, but nah instead it's played for laughs & that song Ballad of the Last Chance Saloon grates the hell on my nerves to the point had mute the sound, i wish the DVD had given us a switch off option cause i loathe that song as much as The Pirates - Gallifreyan buccaneer. I agree wholeheartedly.
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Post by Tim Bradley on Sept 13, 2018 8:59:14 GMT
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Post by number13 on Sept 13, 2018 11:06:06 GMT
Sticking the Doctor in the wild west during the shootout at the O.K Corral should have been less lighthearted & tonally darker as it deals with violent themes, but nah instead it's played for laughs & that song Ballad of the Last Chance Saloon grates the hell on my nerves to the point had mute the sound, i wish the DVD had given us a switch off option cause i loathe that song as much as The Pirates - Gallifreyan buccaneer.I agree wholeheartedly. Disagree! I love both songs and both the stories! And Steven is one of my favourite Companions (and too much missing from the archives) so, in his honour...
*clears throat. la la la laaaa...*
Steven is the very model of a Wild Western balladeer He sings that song at gunpoint giving outlaws what they want to hear While Dodo 'tickles ivories' and gets the drop on Holliday And once the Doctor's tooth is fixed he's having quite a jolly day!
Though it's true that Steven's outfit makes him look an utter 'greenhorn' twerp And outlaws nearly lynch him ('til he's saved by gallant Mr. Werp!) He sings that famous ballad long and loud and true and pure and clear - He is the very model of a Wild Western balladeer!
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Post by Timelord007 on Sept 13, 2018 14:19:25 GMT
Disagree! I love both songs and both the stories! And Steven is one of my favourite Companions (and too much missing from the archives) so, in his honour...
*clears throat. la la la laaaa...*
Steven is the very model of a Wild Western balladeer He sings that song at gunpoint giving outlaws what they want to hear While Dodo 'tickles ivories' and gets the drop on Holliday And once the Doctor's tooth is fixed he's having quite a jolly day!
Though it's true that Steven's outfit makes him look an utter 'greenhorn' twerp And outlaws nearly lynch him ('til he's saved by gallant Mr. Werp!) He sings that famous ballad long and loud and true and pure and clear - He is the very model of a Wild Western balladeer!
Arrrgghhhh my ears, stop please stop.
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Post by Ela on Sept 13, 2018 20:12:54 GMT
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melkur
Chancellery Guard
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Post by melkur on Sept 13, 2018 21:41:24 GMT
For me, it's a fun "little" story that I'm rather fond of... [Which reminds me that I probably need to get round to re-watch it sometime].
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Post by mark687 on Sept 13, 2018 21:51:47 GMT
Loose the Ballard and it works as a fun comedy (whether intentional or not)
Regards
mark687
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