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Post by masterdoctor on Sept 15, 2018 6:45:39 GMT
Thank you  People were telling me at the time that I should put my own feelings first, but I'm just not that sort of person. (I did suffer for it, but I think it was worth it ) You have a very good point there. You can hardly compare the morality of the Seventh Doctor with that of the Second, can you? Two would do everything he could to make sure everyone made it out alive, whereas Seven would be prepared to sacrifice the odd life if it saved a few more... And then you would have to pick the yardstick to measure it against as most people morality can be subjective/objective or a matter of conscience.Or Do we measure the Doctor against the Ten Commandments 😇 Let’s be honest he wont fair well hahaha I don't think that anyone could follow the 10 commandments successfully. To whittle life rules into a basic set leaves no room to allow for the complexity of day to day living. For example, no where in the ten commandments does it say that it is okay for a priest to take advantage of children, yet is it still not morally wrong? So morality is a much broader and more complex than a verse out of a book changed so often it likely doesn't contain the original written words. |
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Post by masterdoctor on Sept 15, 2018 6:53:56 GMT
Three did gun down an Ogron in Day of the Daleks though, having fought off others in hand-to-hand combat. Is that action justifiable? As for Five, yeah, I think he probably has the lowest record for 'questionable actions'. I feel like I'm heading down a rabbit hole of philosophy that I'm not fully equipped to deal with  Ahhh then you come to the quandary of the Debate of a Just War...you could open up a whole other debate I did find the recent regeneration a difficult thing he allows recently these companions to fall in love with him never taking into account the difficulties that they may experience with him becoming a woman.I think i found that really selfish act.It is all very well saying they just have to accept it.I seem to remember Dr Crusher and Trill storyline that ended with her in a quandary.He has become a character who lies and is pretty selfish.River?Captain Jack they wouldn’t have a problem but no offence they would do whatever the writer says they will hahahaha But that ignores the fact that he didn't choose to regenerate into a female and that no one can decide what others feel and think. However, even if we did continue this line of thought, that leaves 3 and 4 at the top of the leaderboard for this, as Three did the same thing with Jo and 4 with Sarah. All the new who Doctors beat them because they have done the simple act of addressing the situation, instead of ignoring the companion's feeling. Also The Doctor has always been a liar and selfish character, it doesn't become a matter of him becoming one. In the very first episode he lies to Ian and Barbara and constantly acts in a way that benefits himself instead of others. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2018 6:56:44 GMT
Yeah, and yet Two was the one who tried to engineer the genocide of the Daleks in Evil (an act which disgusted Jamie). Paradoxes and complexities. It's very tricky. For a more traditionally recognised code of ethics (less pragmatism, more idealism)... Instinctively, I want to say Three or Five? They both seem largely unshakeable, morally speaking. The Third Doctor rejects the Master's proposal for joint domination of the universe out-of-hand in Colony in Space because he doesn't understand it, even from an academic point of view and having the Fifth Doctor be corrupted by the Mara in Cradle of the Snake is actually really shocking. Let’s be honest his first act stealing a Tardis . So, that's out. Murder, nope. Idolatry, nope. Sabbath, nope. Coveting other people's stuff, nope. He tends to reflect rather fondly on his family, so that's one. Yeah, his track record wouldn't be particularly wondrous. Yeah, and yet Two was the one who tried to engineer the genocide of the Daleks in Evil (an act which disgusted Jamie). Paradoxes and complexities. It's very tricky. For a more traditionally recognised code of ethics (less pragmatism, more idealism)... Instinctively, I want to say Three or Five? They both seem largely unshakeable, morally speaking. The Third Doctor rejects the Master's proposal for joint domination of the universe out-of-hand in Colony in Space because he doesn't understand it, even from an academic point of view and having the Fifth Doctor be corrupted by the Mara in Cradle of the Snake is actually really shocking. Three did gun down an Ogron in Day of the Daleks though, having fought off others in hand-to-hand combat. Is that action justifiable? As for Five, yeah, I think he probably has the lowest record for 'questionable actions'. I feel like I'm heading down a rabbit hole of philosophy that I'm not fully equipped to deal with "We're all mostly mad here." Good point on Three, although there is a discrepancy because of the Special Edition wherein... *bites tongue* the Ogron shot first (I know, I know  ). He also demonstrates a form of bigotry towards the Martian delegation in The Curse of Peladon, which he does overcome by the time of Monster. Five's got Four to Doomsday, but no one's really in character there, so I'm loathed to count it. Yeah, he does seem to be the most idealistic incarnation of the bunch. |
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Post by masterdoctor on Sept 15, 2018 7:16:21 GMT
But that ignores the fact that he didn't choose to regenerate into a female and that no one can decide what others feel and think. However, even if we did continue this line of thought, that leaves 3 and 4 at the top of the leaderboard for this, as Three did the same thing with Jo and 4 with Sarah. All the new who Doctors beat them because they have done the simple act of addressing the situation, instead of ignoring the companion's feeling. Also The Doctor has always been a liar and selfish character, it doesn't become a matter of him becoming one. In the very first episode he lies to Ian and Barbara and constantly acts in a way that benefits himself instead of others. No he knew it was a possibility and did not consider how this may affect others. It is pretty selfish and deceitful Again, he can know that it is a possibility, but that doesn't mean he can choose what people feel. And to lay this on the feet of the new doctors when it is an equal if not bigger problem with classic doctors is ignoring the history of the show to fit a narrative. Also to be deceitful is to be guilty of or involving deceit; deceiving or misleading others. In no way, shape or form is the Doctor deceiving or misleading any one of his companions in the way you describe. He's done in examples like 3 and 4 as well as 10 with Rose, but the Doctor has never been deceitful about his biology. And this is one of the billions of selfish things and isn't at all close to the most selfish thing he has done. Finally, The Doctor isn't responsible for how anyone feels. He does not have any power in what they think, all that he can change is his actions and reactions, while the companions change their actions and reactions etc. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2018 7:25:57 GMT
So, that's out. Murder, nope. Idolatry, nope. Sabbath, nope. Coveting other people's stuff, nope. He tends to reflect rather fondly on his family, so that's one. Yeah, his track record wouldn't be particularly wondrous. "We're all mostly mad here." Good point on Three, although there is a discrepancy because of the Special Edition wherein... *bites tongue* the Ogron shot first (I know, I know ). He also demonstrates a form of bigotry towards the Martian delegation in The Curse of Peladon, which he does overcome by the time of Monster. Five's got Four to Doomsday, but no one's really in character there, so I'm loathed to count it. Yeah, he does seem to be the most idealistic incarnation of the bunch. Lol makes you wonder why we watch and listen😂 Oh, the virtues well and truly outweigh the sins and we're fortunate enough to have a protagonist who tries to see the good in everything. I've got the impression that rubs off on us.  But that ignores the fact that he didn't choose to regenerate into a female and that no one can decide what others feel and think. However, even if we did continue this line of thought, that leaves 3 and 4 at the top of the leaderboard for this, as Three did the same thing with Jo and 4 with Sarah. All the new who Doctors beat them because they have done the simple act of addressing the situation, instead of ignoring the companion's feeling. Also The Doctor has always been a liar and selfish character, it doesn't become a matter of him becoming one. In the very first episode he lies to Ian and Barbara and constantly acts in a way that benefits himself instead of others. No he knew it was a possibility and did not consider how this may affect others. It is pretty selfish and deceitful He knew Rose loved him maybe that was why he was so insistent she went to the parallel world as he knew that version would always be the same.So maybe that redeems him but personally i think he just got to the point that Rose was irritating him and decided to get rid of her lol😝 Well, it's like that TNG episode, right?  I think in that case, as it is here, it's not so much selfishness as a cultural bias. The ambassador didn't think it'd be an issue because they had a Trill sensibility of relationships (i.e. the body doesn't matter, the mind remains) and Crusher hit a roadblock because of her own norms. She'd just managed to get over that hurdle of treating him as someone other than Riker while he's occupying that body... And then the transfer occurs. It was just too much in too short a manner of time. To be fair to the Doctor, I think he did consider it a possibility. School Reunion was all about examining how he'd outlive his human companions and how much upset that caused him. By the time of Doomsday, Rose had accepted that fact and both Jack and River were onboard with the fact that he'd change and they'd still be fond of him. I think in the grand scheme of Time Lord relationships, the incarnation doesn't matter. Man, woman, bird-creature, amoeba, they're all the same thing and treated as such. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2018 7:33:17 GMT
Oh, the virtues well and truly outweigh the sins and we're fortunate enough to have a protagonist who tries to see the good in everything. I've got the impression that rubs off on us. Well, it's like that TNG episode, right? I think in that case, as it is here, it's not so much selfishness as a cultural bias. The ambassador didn't think it'd be an issue because they had a Trill sensibility of relationships (i.e. the body doesn't matter, the mind remains) and Crusher hit a roadblock because of her own norms. She'd just managed to get over that hurdle of treating him as someone other than Riker while he's occupying that body... And then the transfer occurs. It was just too much in too short a manner of time. To be fair to the Doctor, I think he did consider it a possibility. School Reunion was all about examining how he'd outlive his human companions and how much upset that caused him. By the time of Doomsday, Rose had accepted that fact and both Jack and River were onboard with the fact that he'd change and they'd still be fond of him. I think in the grand scheme of Time Lord relationships, the incarnation doesn't matter. Man, woman, bird-creature, amoeba, they're all the same thing and treated as such. My goodness lol😝 Not in front of the children please🤔 I promise I only use my brain for good.  |
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Post by jasonward on Sept 15, 2018 11:12:15 GMT
I feel like that comes back to what Twelve said towards the end of Mummy on the Orient Express: "Sometimes the only choices you have are bad ones, but you still have to choose." (or something like that) The argument here probably falls more towards a debate on the lesser of two evils, but that's a whole different topic It certainly is...the choosing of any evil and is there really a lesser evil? How does not making a choice differ from making a choice, except in additionally abdicating all responsibility? |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2018 11:52:40 GMT
In all seriousness it’s pretty easy to understand. The Doctor is meant to be a role model, unless there’s a story where they’re wrong, in which case the companion’s morals are to be followed. But in general, yeah you’re meant to look up to them.
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Post by sherlock on Sept 15, 2018 12:04:24 GMT
Since the Doctor became a women, many fans have been saying that boys have lost a good role model. Possible the best one ever created. (If you look back at James Bond, Batman & Superman, for example, they're not exactly good role models) Then, I got thinking. Since the show returned in 2005, has the Doctor been a good role model. Let us have a look - He's snogged Rose. Fell in love and stalked Madame Pompadour Fell in love with Rose. He's snogged Amy. Fell in love with Amy. Snogged Captain Jack. He married Marilyn Monroe, River Song, Elizabeth First. Lied to Clara. There are probably others, but really, the Doctor a role model? For me, it's a "no"! I don't understand why him kissing girls (and Jack) makes him a poor role model. It depends what you want from a role model. A flawless caricature or a character who is flawed but whose values are worth looking up to? The Doctor was certainly not conceived as a role model (first thing he does in the show is kidnap some innocent people), but I suppose the values he's come to represent could make him one. |
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Post by barnabaslives on Sept 15, 2018 12:21:08 GMT
I think The Doctor is a wonderful role model as long as you ignore all the junk that writers have thrown in that contradicts this, which is probably something you get to do with a lot of fictional heroes.
The first thing that comes to mind for idiosyncratic writing is the mental picture of Five very uncharacteristically pointing a weapon at someone, I just think, "WTF? That's not The Doctor".
I used to enjoy a lot of comic book heroes but to do that you have to overlook how often everything is resolved with physical violence. Even though that's a cut above spies or Western heroes who shoot their way out of everything, I got such a steady diet of superhero slugfests over the years that I'm not able to overlook it anymore.
Thankfully I think with The Doctor it's still a lot easier to ignore the character flaws that have been written in, there's a lot more left to the character after you take that away from him/her.
The immortal line about "a teaspoon and an open mind" is how I prefer to think of The Doctor, and that's what I still look up to in spite of all the junk that's been shoehorned into The Doctor's character.
I guess the Midlife Crisis Doc (see what I did there) with all of the "Am I a good man?" business might have been an effort to tie up some of the previous inconsistencies with recrimination, but I think it's pretty silly. (I've never understood how the fate of Gallifrey belongs to the discussion, that was simply a terrible choice that was forced on him).
I'm not terribly fond of The Doctor being romantically involved, at least not on-screen, and not terribly fond of him being involved with companions over 1000 years younger. I'm delighted when The Doctor name-drops romantic involvement with, for example, some famous historical figure, I'm happy for him not to suffer a loveless existence - but just the mention is plenty for me. I really don't watch the series for romance, if I wanted that I could watch something else.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2018 13:09:47 GMT
Just a thought. I recall that the Doctor's own Role Model was a certain Borusa. Former schoolmaster and later Lord President, who sought Immortality. He offered The Master a complete new regeneration life-cycle, to play the Game of Rassilon.
Now that the Doctor himself has accepted a compete new life-cycle amongst other temptations cited on this very thread, I wonder if old Borusa would finally award him 10/10 at long last, given the opportunity?
Or is the Doctor still trapped in the Land of Fiction and being subjugated by the will of the Writer, who makes things up as he goes along to keep the story moving along?
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Post by tuigirl on Sept 15, 2018 13:13:55 GMT
Just a thought. I recall that the Doctor's own Role Model was a certain Borusa. Former schoolmaster and later Lord President, who sought Immortality. He offered The Master a complete new regeneration life-cycle, to play the Game of Rassilon. Now that the Doctor himself has accepted a compete new life-cycle amongst other temptations cited on this very thread, I wonder if old Borusa would finally award him 10/10 at long last, given the opportunity? Or is the Doctor still trapped in the Land of Fiction and being subjugated by the will of the Writer, who makes things up as he goes along to keep the story moving along? Definitively the last bit.... |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2018 13:31:32 GMT
Much as i have read everyone’s views i can no longer be dissuaded he really is a totally corrupt character and the sooner we destroy all his books and cds and audios and tv programmes the better humanity wil be 😂🤣😇 It all started to go wrong once he went into Politics. |
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Post by tuigirl on Oct 11, 2018 10:58:05 GMT
Sorry to warm this old thing up again-
but talking about the TV series and role models.
I am just reading "Space Helmet for a Cow" and the more I read about Vertity Lambert, the more I am impressed with her.
She definitly is becoming one of my heroes.
She really stood up for herself and what she believed in and no matter how much bullsh*t she got into her face from her employer and everybody else, no matter how hard everything got, she battled on. Everybody told her it was never going to work, she had no money, had a borderline un-usable studio and no support. She really did show them, didn't she?
Very inspirational person.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2018 11:49:33 GMT
Sorry to warm this old thing up again- but talking about the TV series and role models. I am just reading "Space Helmet for a Cow" and the more I read about Vertity Lambert, the more I am impressed with her. She definitly is becoming one of my heroes. She really stood up for herself and what she believed in and no matter how much bullsh*t she got into her face from her employer and everybody else, no matter how hard everything got, she battled on. Everybody told her it was never going to work, she had no money, had a borderline un-usable studio and no support. She really did show them, didn't she? Very inspirational person. She never lost that innovative spark either. One of her final acts as the show's producer was to greenlight The Daleks' Master Plan in all its twelve episode glory. I remember her talking on the DVD commentary for The Dalek Invasion of Earth about how she made an effort never to talk down to the children who were watching. She thought they were just as capable of following what was going on week-to-week as the adults. That's always something that's stayed with me. Always treat your audience with respect. |
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Post by tuigirl on Oct 11, 2018 12:51:13 GMT
She never lost that innovative spark either. One of her final acts as the show's producer was to greenlight The Daleks' Master Plan in all its twelve episode glory. I remember her talking on the DVD commentary for The Dalek Invasion of Earth about how she made an effort never to talk down to the children who were watching. She thought they were just as capable of following what was going on week-to-week as the adults. That's always something that's stayed with me. Always treat your audience with respect. Sounds more and more like an amazing woman! Well, need to get some 1st Doctor DVDs to see those DVDs commentaries... something else to look forward to!
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People were telling me at the time that I should put my own feelings first, but I'm just not that sort of person. (I did suffer for it, but I think it was worth it 
). He also demonstrates a form of bigotry towards the Martian delegation in The Curse of Peladon, which he does overcome by the time of Monster. Five's got Four to Doomsday, but no one's really in character there, so I'm loathed to count it. Yeah, he does seem to be the most idealistic incarnation of the bunch.
I think in that case, as it is here, it's not so much selfishness as a cultural bias. The ambassador didn't think it'd be an issue because they had a Trill sensibility of relationships (i.e. the body doesn't matter, the mind remains) and Crusher hit a roadblock because of her own norms. She'd just managed to get over that hurdle of treating him as someone other than Riker while he's occupying that body... And then the transfer occurs. It was just too much in too short a manner of time.
