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Post by thethirddoctor on Sept 14, 2018 17:16:10 GMT
Since the Doctor became a women, many fans have been saying that boys have lost a good role model. Possible the best one ever created. (If you look back at James Bond, Batman & Superman, for example, they're not exactly good role models)
Then, I got thinking. Since the show returned in 2005, has the Doctor been a good role model.
Let us have a look -
He's snogged Rose. Fell in love and stalked Madame Pompadour Fell in love with Rose. He's snogged Amy. Fell in love with Amy. Snogged Captain Jack. He married Marilyn Monroe, River Song, Elizabeth First. Lied to Clara.
There are probably others, but really, the Doctor a role model?
For me, it's a "no"!
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Post by masterdoctor on Sept 14, 2018 18:01:14 GMT
Since the Doctor became a women, many fans have been saying that boys have lost a good role model. Possible the best one ever created. (If you look back at James Bond, Batman & Superman, for example, they're not exactly good role models) Then, I got thinking. Since the show returned in 2005, has the Doctor been a good role model. Let us have a look - He's snogged Rose. Fell in love and stalked Madame Pompadour Fell in love with Rose. He's snogged Amy. Fell in love with Amy. Snogged Captain Jack. He married Marilyn Monroe, River Song, Elizabeth First. Lied to Clara. There are probably others, but really, the Doctor a role model? For me, it's a "no"! I would say that those examples fail to say to me that is a bad role model. I don’t think that having a relationship with anyone or snogging anyone is something to looked down on. Also when The Doctor has lied to his companions it is shown to have consequences and he tries to amend his mistakes. I think that is a very good role model. However it should also be asked if the Doctor was a good role model in the classic series.
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Post by tuigirl on Sept 14, 2018 18:17:43 GMT
No. He is a thief, a lier and a mass murderer. He even says so again and again. A loveable rogue, yes, but no role model. He would be appaled at the idea. And this is independend of all the love interests/ snogging and so on mentioned by the OP- what does that have to do with anything, anyways? Who I fell in love with and whom I snogged? How does this impact my status in society? Would anybody even care? Probably not. I would also not consider James Bond or Batman viable role models, be honest, they are both psychopaths who happen to be on the "right" side. Audity is right, get them from real life.
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Sept 14, 2018 18:21:09 GMT
Since the Doctor became a women, many fans have been saying that boys have lost a good role model. Possible the best one ever created. (If you look back at James Bond, Batman & Superman, for example, they're not exactly good role models) Then, I got thinking. Since the show returned in 2005, has the Doctor been a good role model. Let us have a look - He's snogged Rose. Fell in love and stalked Madame Pompadour Fell in love with Rose. He's snogged Amy. Fell in love with Amy. Snogged Captain Jack. He married Marilyn Monroe, River Song, Elizabeth First. Lied to Clara. There are probably others, but really, the Doctor a role model? For me, it's a "no"! He values intellect and reason over brawn, hyperbole and violence. He endeavours to find peaceful solutions and minimize loss in dangerous siutations. Advocates respecting and understanding history and its many nuances. Is anti-exploitation and abuse of anyone of any background, creed or gender. Belives in the sanctity of life and the right to live in peace, without persectuion or prejudice.
Believes in mercy and second chances, even to the most vile of the universe. Puts others before himself, even if it could get him killed. Can and does own up to mistakes and apologizes.
Believes in enjoying the small pleasures of life rather than seek glory or riches, as well as the benefits of travel and culture.
For me, it's a "well, there's certainly things to look up to", both in Classic and Nu. And while I get audity's point, I feel like it's a bit of a shallow read.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2018 18:40:36 GMT
I think he has made better persons of all of us. It is oft remarked on this forum how 'fans' elsewhere online demonstrate a lack of the Good Doctor's values. Perhaps they are closeted 'Master's'?
The Doctor's defense in his Trial at the close of the War Games - how he makes use of the great gifts he feels are wasted by his fellow Time Lords, the way the Master, The Rani and the Meddling Monk all abuse these powers, show that the Doctor cannot stand by and let injustice or Evil go unchallenged. They must be stopped. Right is Might said Colonel Blimp, and the Doctor is an embodiment of these old fashioned moral values.
He is flawed and often needs the support of others as he is not superhuman, but always puts his own life on the line before others.
So, Yes, he is a role model to me, though Doctors Three and Four have the best sartorial style to look up to. Cosplayers beware, Seven and Six do not shout out 'Role Model' by any traditional yardstick, though it takes all sorts to save a universe I suppose...
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Post by fitzoliverj on Sept 14, 2018 18:42:59 GMT
probably before NU WHO yes
Really? The Doctor smoke, drank, gambled, committed genocide, patronised women, performed cruel psychological experiments on people (taking Ace to that house), shot people, exhibited racial prejudice against Martians, kidnapped people, hit people, blew up people, let people fall into the vortex to be destroyed horribly, intervened in the internal politics of other nations, never cleared up after himself, stole, broke copious other laws, and ran away because he was bored.
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Post by fitzoliverj on Sept 14, 2018 18:47:55 GMT
Really? The Doctor smoke, drank, gambled, committed genocide, patronised women, performed cruel psychological experiments on people (taking Ace to that house), shot people, exhibited racial prejudice against Martians, kidnapped people, hit people, blew up people, let people fall into the vortex to be destroyed horribly, intervened in the internal politics of other nations, never cleared up after himself, stole, broke copious other laws, and ran away because he was bored.
I sort of answered myself by narrowing the role models to Tom Baker and Jon Pertwees incarnations
...committed genocide, patronised women, shot people, exhibited racial prejudice against Martians, hit people, intervened in the internal politics of other nations, never cleared up after himself....
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Sept 14, 2018 18:50:07 GMT
probably before NU WHO yes
Really? The Doctor smoke, drank, gambled, committed genocide, patronised women, performed cruel psychological experiments on people (taking Ace to that house), shot people, exhibited racial prejudice against Martians, kidnapped people, hit people, blew up people, let people fall into the vortex to be destroyed horribly, intervened in the internal politics of other nations, never cleared up after himself, stole, broke copious other laws, and ran away because he was bored.
If anything, RTD pushed hard to make the Doctor more moral and 'in the right' than his classic counterparts, especially compared to some of the iffier ones like Seven and One.
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Post by mark687 on Sept 14, 2018 18:54:28 GMT
Clickbait!!!!
Regards
mark687
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Post by tuigirl on Sept 14, 2018 18:59:07 GMT
Yes you are so right i am off to burn all the books the dvds the cds...guys a complete ......”;^7%4$434£322£2$52@2@22@2@222. We should be protected. To quote Cornell:
He’s like fire and ice and rage; he’s like the night and the storm in the heart of the sun. He’s ancient and forever, he burns at the center of time, and can see the turn of the universe.
And…he’s wonderful
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Post by mark687 on Sept 14, 2018 19:04:03 GMT
To quote Cornell:
He’s like fire and ice and rage; he’s like the night and the storm in the heart of the sun. He’s ancient and forever, he burns at the center of time, and can see the turn of the universe.
And…he’s wonderful Nah i have gone right off him-am on eBay getting rid of all my stuff😉😜
Regards
mark687
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Post by tuigirl on Sept 14, 2018 19:04:30 GMT
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Post by mark687 on Sept 14, 2018 19:05:27 GMT
Am off to find someone with more morals...Bernice here I come
Regards
mark687
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2018 19:19:34 GMT
Calm down dears (Bizarrely a phrase Michael Winner was fond of, something of an ill suited unsuited personage).
Capaldi's first series was unpopular for all that tiresome 'Am I a Good Man' tosh, amongst other issues.
One and Seven were oft the anti-hero, Ten had a Hubristic tendency, Two was deceitful in hiding his intelligence to stay close to his enemies, Three suffered vanity, Four was impatient and scathing at times to those less quick witted than he. Five was hesitant and unsure whether to get involved at times, with a sarcastic streak. Six was, well, where start there!!
But the thing is, they are a fictional representation of commonly regarded values for 'Good' as befitting the society the many writers are a product of. Real role models are filtered through within the writing. It is why we identify and are drawn to his character.
Perhaps a twist on the thread title, to prevent arguing ourselves down a cul-de-sac, may be to cite which characters in classic and nu-who, we personally identify with most as individuals. That is to mean in all honesty, warts and all, as opposed to idealistically. Assuming the Doctor is not good enough to match our lofty ideals of ones own self worthiness...
That could be fun reading, as opposed to splitting hairs. I'll start with Harry Sullivan...
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Post by masterdoctor on Sept 14, 2018 19:25:48 GMT
A couple of points. One is that to say that role models are infallible is disengenous to say the least. Just because someone makes a mistake does not equate to their ability to be a role model. The reason someone becomes a role model is through their reaction to those actions. Secondly, to say only real life people can be role models causes a major problem. I would much rather people look up to fictional characters like The Doctor or Spider-Man then real life people such as Catholic Clergyman who sexually assault children or actively protect others that do. Just because they are fictional does not equate to their viability as a role model to someone. Thirdly, every person can and should have the ability to choose their role models without being told it is an invalid person to look up to.
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Post by mark687 on Sept 14, 2018 19:29:11 GMT
Well this Thread went to the Extreme quick (which I bet is what the OP wanted)
Regards
mark687
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Post by tuigirl on Sept 14, 2018 19:45:49 GMT
Hmm... Not sure if this defuses this... I have an autograph of the 6th Doctor hanging here on my wall. Not because of the character, but because I admire the actor. Life has dumped a truckload of lemons on his head, but he managed to come out on top and hand out lemonade to everybody who would join him. Like many of us, his employer treated him like, you know, not nicely, but when he talks about it, he always stays polite, he does not call names and he does not swear. It is his perseverance and his good humor that keep him on top of all that. And in the end, his autograph is hanging on the wall of some random German stranger while I do not even know the name of the guy who kicked him out. When I had a bad day at work, I look at this and I take some heart from it. THAT is someone I admire. I do not need a superhuman hero to look up to, just some ordinary guy who made the very best out of some awful situations. Honestly, what else could you wish to aspire to? But maybe that was too adult an answer for this thread...
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2018 19:49:01 GMT
Hmm... Not sure if this defuses this... I have an autograph of the 6th Doctor hanging here on my wall. Not because of the character, but because I admire the actor. Life has dumped a truckload of lemons on his head, but he managed to come out on top and hand out lemonade to everybody who would join him. Like many of us, his employer treated him like, you know, not nicely, but when he talks about it, he always stays polite, he does not call names and he does not swear. It is his perseverance and his good humor that keep him on top of all that. And in the end, his autograph is hanging on the wall of some random German stranger while I do not even know the name of the guy who kicked him out. When I had a bad day at work, I look at this and I take some heart from it. THAT is someone I admire. I do not need a superhuman hero to look up to, just some ordinary guy who made the very best out of some awful situations. Honestly, what else could you wish to aspire to? But maybe that was too adult an answer for this thread... I thought he was into Real Ale?
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Post by thethirddoctor on Sept 14, 2018 19:52:59 GMT
Calm down dears (Bizarrely a phrase Michael Winner was fond of, something of an ill suited unsuited personage). Capaldi's first series was unpopular for all that tiresome 'Am I a Good Man' tosh, amongst other issues. One and Seven were oft the anti-hero, Ten had a Hubristic tendency, Two was deceitful in hiding his intelligence to stay close to his enemies, Three suffered vanity, Four was impatient and scathing at times to those less quick witted than he. Five was hesitant and unsure whether to get involved at times, with a sarcastic streak. Six was, well, where start there!! But the thing is, they are a fictional representation of commonly regarded values for 'Good' as befitting the society the many writers are a product of. Real role models are filtered through within the writing. It is why we identify and are drawn to his character. Perhaps a twist on the thread title, to prevent arguing ourselves down a cul-de-sac, may be to cite which characters in classic and nu-who, we personally identify with most as individuals. That is to mean in all honesty, warts and all, as opposed to idealistically. Assuming the Doctor is not good enough to match our lofty ideals of ones own self worthiness... That could be fun reading, as opposed to splitting hairs. I'll start with Harry Sullivan... Jamie. Eveything a friend could be. Brave, courageous, charming, polite.
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Post by masterdoctor on Sept 14, 2018 19:54:29 GMT
Hmm... Not sure if this defuses this... I have an autograph of the 6th Doctor hanging here on my wall. Not because of the character, but because I admire the actor. Life has dumped a truckload of lemons on his head, but he managed to come out on top and hand out lemonade to everybody who would join him. Like many of us, his employer treated him like, you know, not nicely, but when he talks about it, he always stays polite, he does not call names and he does not swear. It is his perseverance and his good humor that keep him on top of all that. And in the end, his autograph is hanging on the wall of some random German stranger while I do not even know the name of the guy who kicked him out. When I had a bad day at work, I look at this and I take some heart from it. THAT is someone I admire. I do not need a superhuman hero to look up to, just some ordinary guy who made the very best out of some awful situations. Honestly, what else could you wish to aspire to? But maybe that was too adult an answer for this thread... Great story. a role model is who helps you lead a successful life. And I should be clear that I was not trying to disparage real life role models or who you choose your models to be. I just wanted to defend that all are valid because everyone is different.
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