|
Post by nucleusofswarm on Sept 28, 2018 23:53:53 GMT
I do, divorced from all the behind-the-scenes drama, like the sudden cut off of ''I'll take you to-'' I feel, in an odd way, it just perfectly sums up the show and its unpredictability. Even the fact that it's so sudden and choppy feels very inkeeping with Classic Who.
Anybody else agree? Or would you have prefered Colin say ''to Blackpool''?
|
|
|
Post by Whovitt on Sept 29, 2018 0:39:17 GMT
As a kid, I never realised there was anything behind the scenes going on with it. I knew he was clearly moving to say something beginning with 'B', but I also always loved the pause because it left a sense of "Ooohhh, what's going to happen next?"
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2018 1:13:44 GMT
If I’m honest it probably works better with the final word cut out. Imagine trying to excite viewers with wild promises of Blackpool.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2018 1:22:02 GMT
If I’m honest it probably works better with the final word cut out. Imagine trying to excite viewers with wild promises of Blackpool. As a kid we would had a foreign holiday one year, and Blackpool the next and a foreign after that etc. Pontins was where we stayed to be specific. I have nightmares about how horrible it always was. Awful cabaret, bad kids clubs, horrible chalets... I never knew why we didnt just stay home. As an adult I've had a few nights in Blackpool that are far too x-rated for the forum. So if Colin said "blackpool" it would certainly stir up some rather weird memories each time I watched. The really dumb part is JNT thinking that if they left it ambiguous then there was less of a chance of the hiatus becoming a cancellation. As if that was enough of a cliffhanger to get the masses intrigued....
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2018 1:36:02 GMT
Yeah, I like it. It's a good use of negative space, the audience can fill in whatever they like and promises new possibilities on the horizon. Whatever you can imagine (so long as it starts with a 'B' ). Reminds me a bit of The Two Doctors novelisation, in hindsight, where it ends with a single, divorced phrase: If I’m honest it probably works better with the final word cut out. Imagine trying to excite viewers with wild promises of Blackpool. As a kid we would had a foreign holiday one year, and Blackpool the next and a foreign after that etc. Pontins was where we stayed to be specific. I have nightmares about how horrible it always was. Awful cabaret, bad kids clubs, horrible chalets... I never knew why we didnt just stay home. As an adult I've had a few nights in Blackpool that are far too x-rated for the forum. So if Colin said "blackpool" it would certainly stir up some rather weird memories each time I watched. The really dumb part is JNT thinking that if they left it ambiguous then there was less of a chance of the hiatus becoming a cancellation. As if that was enough of a cliffhanger to get the masses intrigued.... Eh, I'd say it was more a case of leaving the door open to take things in a different direction (should the series required it). If the Doc says Blackpool, then the audience is going to expect Blackpool and be a bit put out when it doesn't happen. If it's cut too early -- say when Orcini detonates the bomb -- then you're adding an extra complication to what might already be a difficult new season. Everyone's automatically locked into resolving what happened in Revelation and any time-skip after that point is going to feel a bit clunky no matter how you do it. With production finished, it would've been much kinder on the future production team just to omit that final word.
|
|
|
Post by jasonward on Sept 29, 2018 1:37:03 GMT
The really dumb part is JNT thinking that if they left it ambiguous then there was less of a chance of the hiatus becoming a cancellation. As if that was enough of a cliffhanger to get the masses intrigued....
Sure... but, what options did he have? How desperate or perhaps depressed did he feel? How much pressure was he under not to create a cliff hanger?
I'd definitely go with odd or strange, weird even, but dumb?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2018 1:46:12 GMT
The really dumb part is JNT thinking that if they left it ambiguous then there was less of a chance of the hiatus becoming a cancellation. As if that was enough of a cliffhanger to get the masses intrigued....
Sure... but, what options did he have? How desperate or perhaps depressed did he feel? How much pressure was he under not to create a cliff hanger?
I'd definitely go with odd or strange, weird even, but dumb?
Saward and Colin both mock the idea of that cliffhanger on the special features, so yeah - I'll stick with dumb given they would know better than any of us. When Powell and co decided to bring it back from hiatus for the Trial, I guarantee the "cliffhanger" of where he's going to take Peri next wasn't even slightly on their minds.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2018 1:50:24 GMT
Yeah, I like it. It's a good use of negative space, the audience can fill in whatever they like and promises new possibilities on the horizon. Whatever you can imagine (so long as it starts with a 'B' ). Reminds me a bit of The Two Doctors novelisation, in hindsight, where it ends with a single, divorced phrase: As a kid we would had a foreign holiday one year, and Blackpool the next and a foreign after that etc. Pontins was where we stayed to be specific. I have nightmares about how horrible it always was. Awful cabaret, bad kids clubs, horrible chalets... I never knew why we didnt just stay home. As an adult I've had a few nights in Blackpool that are far too x-rated for the forum. So if Colin said "blackpool" it would certainly stir up some rather weird memories each time I watched. The really dumb part is JNT thinking that if they left it ambiguous then there was less of a chance of the hiatus becoming a cancellation. As if that was enough of a cliffhanger to get the masses intrigued.... Eh, I'd say it was more a case of leaving the door open to take things in a different direction (should the series required it). If the Doc says Blackpool, then the audience is going to expect Blackpool and be a bit put out when it doesn't happen. If it's cut too early -- say when Orcini detonates the bomb -- then you're adding an extra complication to what might already be a difficult new season. Everyone's automatically locked into resolving what happened in Revelation and any time-skip after that point is going to feel a bit clunky no matter how you do it. With production finished, it would've been much kinder on the future production team just to omit that final word. That's all only on the assumption it has to end that way at all. You don't need The Doctor to deliver that line - he could have said something completely different like the ending of every other season. Ultimately by the time it came back no-one seemed to either remember or care what was said. I wonder how many letters DWM got saying "they didn't resolve the end of Revelation...".
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2018 1:52:24 GMT
Sure... but, what options did he have? How desperate or perhaps depressed did he feel? How much pressure was he under not to create a cliff hanger?
I'd definitely go with odd or strange, weird even, but dumb?
Saward and Colin both mock the idea of that cliffhanger on the special features, so yeah - I'll stick with dumb given they would know better than any of us. When Powell and co decided to bring it back from hiatus for the Trial, I guarantee the "cliffhanger" of where he's going to take Peri next wasn't even slightly on their minds. Eh, they're entitled to their opinions. We're entitled to ours. All the benefits of a nice, soft cliffhanger. No obligations. Freedom to spin the regulars out to wherever they needed to go and bring them back in whatever form they liked.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2018 1:52:54 GMT
I remember being all to aware of the hiatus coming after that episode. As a family we went to Newcastle that day so I only got back home for the last 5-10 minutes (no video at the time). I learned later of the draft Nightmare Fair story, but the impression at the time was a case of a pregnant pause and a wait and see what direction the show may go next, irrespective of what had at the time been planned prior to the news of the series getting a 'rest'.
As it was, the season 23 stories got canned and we 'gained' as an alternative, the TOATL 14 part serial. It seemed a lost opportunity after all the wait, but at the time of that episodes 'cliffhanger' (as it was intended) it felt that we might be fortunate just to see the series return. The BBC news at the time gave the impression that the future of the series was indeed precarious.
A sad time for the series and despite the quiet cancellation after season 26, it remains the low point in terms of the casual manner in which what was the longest running Sci-Fi series in the world even then, could be binned mercilessly by a new BBC1 controller on the grounds of a few recent missteps. Bad Management, full stop.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2018 2:27:56 GMT
To answer Nucleus' actual question, yes I quite like the choppy abrupt ending. The sting into the credits really helped. Yet it's kinda impossible to discuss without the politics behind it.
The ratings were almost exactly what they had been under Davison so cliffhanger or not, Powell and Grade wanted the show off. The show never had a chance. To this day there's a fallacy that Colin flopped in the ratings but he beat the average for even Davison's much publicised Season 20. More people watched Colin than watched Peter's "A returning character every story" anniversary season.
But the behemoth that was Eastenders was in development and a lot of shows were cancelled or rested to build the Albert Square set at great cost. Who was one of the victims though it was only for 18 months according to Auntie. Though as we now know from the Trials And Tribulations doc it was - according to JNT and others including Ian Levine - never the intention of the Beeb to bring it back the next year hence the Doctor In Distress and the Sun campaign etc. The show was off for good as far as those making it knew.
The cliffhanger was not gonna play a part in saving the show though even if Saward and Colin mock it now and it is the proverbial bringing a knife to a gunfight...at least it was well intentioned from JNT.
What did bring the show back? No one thing IMO. The public outcry, the ratings being reviewed, international sales being an all time high (this was the heyday of PBS showing Who), BBC Worldwide crunching the numbers on revenue....or maybe they weren't lying and the show was indeed always coming back on air.
Of course a few years later the Beeb learned from the bad PR. Post S26 they just...stopped making Who. By then the ratings were awful. The scheduling wasn't giving it a chance. Yet they never cancelled it, never put it to rest. They just stopped telling the team to make new Who. By then JNT and Cartmel realised that rather than "cliffhangers", this one seemed final so signing off with a statement overdubbed by McCoy in ADR, was a more dignified way to go. Come on Ace...we've got work to do indeed. By 1989 sales of back catalogue Who and the massive growth of VHS meant they could monetise Who without actually making it. Stations like PBS wanted Tom and Jon anyway - not Sylv. No ending was gonna save that last series sadly. A shame as S26 is the best in a looooong time.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2018 2:55:43 GMT
To answer Nucleus' actual question, yes I quite like the choppy abrupt ending. The sting into the credits really helped. Yet it's kinda impossible to discuss without the politics behind it. The ratings were almost exactly what they had been under Davison so cliffhanger or not, Powell and Grade wanted the show off. The show never had a chance. To this day there's a fallacy that Colin flopped in the ratings but he beat the average for even Davison's much publicised Season 20. More people watched Colin than watched Peter's "A returning character every story" anniversary season. But the behemoth that was Eastenders was in development and a lot of shows were cancelled or rested to build the Albert Square set at great cost. Who was one of the victims though it was only for 18 months according to Auntie. Though as we now know from the Trials And Tribulations doc it was - according to JNT and others including Ian Levine - never the intention of the Beeb to bring it back the next year hence the Doctor In Distress and the Sun campaign etc. The show was off for good as far as those making it knew. The cliffhanger was not gonna play a part in saving the show though even if Saward and Colin mock it now and it is the proverbial bringing a knife to a gunfight...at least it was well intentioned from JNT. What did bring the show back? No one thing IMO. The public outcry, the ratings being reviewed, international sales being an all time high (this was the heyday of PBS showing Who), BBC Worldwide crunching the numbers on revenue....or maybe they weren't lying and the show was indeed always coming back on air. Of course a few years later the Beeb learned from the bad PR. Post S26 they just...stopped making Who. By then the ratings were awful. The scheduling wasn't giving it a chance. Yet they never cancelled it, never put it to rest. They just stopped telling the team to make new Who. By then JNT and Cartmel realised that rather than "cliffhangers", this one seemed final so signing off with a statement overdubbed by McCoy in ADR, was a more dignified way to go. Come on Ace...we've got work to do indeed. By 1989 sales of back catalogue Who and the massive growth of VHS meant they could monetise Who without actually making it. Stations like PBS wanted Tom and Jon anyway - not Sylv. No ending was gonna save that last series sadly. A shame as S26 is the best in a looooong time. Remember: None of this was known to the viewer at the time. Regardless of being a fan or not, this was way before accumulated knowledge from retrospective interviews. It seemed more of an open ending. Frozen at an end of season point of an ongoing narrative and leaving viewers hoping that it would continue at some point. Season conclusions did not typically end on such a note. It seemed at the time designed by Saward and Turner to give viewers the impression of an abrupt break in the series. A subtle political point made, perhaps. I am emphasising here from the perspective of one who watched at the time, without hindsight. I feel that undue emphasis is being given to the nuances of that scene. Watching then, it seemed deliberate that JNT and Saward wanted viewers to feel invested in the future of the series and to hope this was indeed merely a 'pause' button freeze frame, and not the end of the series.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2018 3:22:25 GMT
Well, by then there was no "JNT and Saward", they were at loggerheads more often than not and Eric certainly didn't come up with, or like, the idea of the clipped-cliffhanger as he's made clear since. Eric may have written the story, but the cliffhanger was devised and created in post. By Revelation their relationship had long since been tenuous.
The larger point - and I'm not sure it's possible to remove what comes after from this - is that no matter how good the cliffhanger, the higher ups wanted it dead. Eric believed they'd want that regardless of the quality of the end of the season, JNT thought otherwise.
I'll need to relisten to the commentary or watch the doc as I can't remember if Graeme Harper knew much at the time.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2018 3:41:34 GMT
Well, by then there was no "JNT and Saward", they were at loggerheads more often than not and Eric certainly didn't come up with, or like, the idea of the clipped-cliffhanger as he's made clear since. Eric may have written the story, but the cliffhanger was devised and created in post. The larger point - and I'm not sure it's possible to remove what comes after from this - is that no matter how good the cliffhanger, the higher ups wanted it dead. Eric believed they'd want that regardless of the quality of the end of the season, JNT thought otherwise. I'll need to relisten to the commentary or watch the doc as I can't remember if Graeme Harper knew much at the time. Wait... Are we talking about Revelation of the Daleks or are we talking about The Ultimate Foe? I can remember the two butting heads over the end of Trial because Saward wanted to keep Holmes' time rent ending and JNT wanted something more optimistic, but I don't recall that being a factor for Revelation's ending. The disagreement over creative differences came a year later with Season 23.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2018 10:16:40 GMT
Well, by then there was no "JNT and Saward", they were at loggerheads more often than not and Eric certainly didn't come up with, or like, the idea of the clipped-cliffhanger as he's made clear since. Eric may have written the story, but the cliffhanger was devised and created in post. The larger point - and I'm not sure it's possible to remove what comes after from this - is that no matter how good the cliffhanger, the higher ups wanted it dead. Eric believed they'd want that regardless of the quality of the end of the season, JNT thought otherwise. I'll need to relisten to the commentary or watch the doc as I can't remember if Graeme Harper knew much at the time. Wait... Are we talking about Revelation of the Daleks or are we talking about The Ultimate Foe? I can remember the two butting heads over the end of Trial because Saward wanted to keep Holmes' time rent ending and JNT wanted something more optimistic, but I don't recall that being a factor for Revelation's ending. The disagreement over creative differences came a year later with Season 23. That's how I recall it as well. Regarding the ending to Revelation: the word 'Blackpool' was excised, as I remember, because it was designed to fit straight into the original plans for the following story The Nightmare Fair, when the Doctor and Peri did pop to Blackpool to meet Michael Gough's Celestial Toymaker (we missed out there!). With all that being thrown out of the window for Series 23, plans changed, and the cut was made. I don't recall any more to it than that
As it stands, I also really like the open-ended last scene to Revelation. Like others here, at the time, I just thought it was always meant to be that way. Looking back now, I think the cut actually made the ending better.
|
|
|
Post by mark687 on Sept 29, 2018 10:21:18 GMT
In story context the Ending doesn't really matter so I don't mind it,
I suppose I look at the EP now as not very good Doctor Who but a very good Doctorless Dalek Series piolet EP.
I mean there has to be serious problems behind the scenes when you produce an EP of a series where your lead character adds nothing to the plot.
Regards
mark687
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2018 10:27:04 GMT
Well, by then there was no "JNT and Saward", they were at loggerheads more often than not and Eric certainly didn't come up with, or like, the idea of the clipped-cliffhanger as he's made clear since. Eric may have written the story, but the cliffhanger was devised and created in post. The larger point - and I'm not sure it's possible to remove what comes after from this - is that no matter how good the cliffhanger, the higher ups wanted it dead. Eric believed they'd want that regardless of the quality of the end of the season, JNT thought otherwise. I'll need to relisten to the commentary or watch the doc as I can't remember if Graeme Harper knew much at the time. Wait... Are we talking about Revelation of the Daleks or are we talking about The Ultimate Foe? I can remember the two butting heads over the end of Trial because Saward wanted to keep Holmes' time rent ending and JNT wanted something more optimistic, but I don't recall that being a factor for Revelation's ending. The disagreement over creative differences came a year later with Season 23. No, I'm not talking about Ultimate Foe - they'd not been on good terms long before that, and as we discovered in his tell-all expose in the infamous Starburst interview Eric had not been happy with the direction JNT wanted for the past few years before leaving ("Pantomime!") and had been at loggerheads since at least Davison's last year after the way Peter Grymwade was treated. Their relationship was to become intolerable a year later but even by S21, Saward and JNT were not getting on in any way shape or form. As we found out also at the time, Eric was less than enthused with Colin's casting and would be going public with that rather explosively too.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2018 10:30:54 GMT
Wait... Are we talking about Revelation of the Daleks or are we talking about The Ultimate Foe? I can remember the two butting heads over the end of Trial because Saward wanted to keep Holmes' time rent ending and JNT wanted something more optimistic, but I don't recall that being a factor for Revelation's ending. The disagreement over creative differences came a year later with Season 23. That's how I recall it as well. Regarding the ending to Revelation: the word 'Blackpool' was excised, as I remember, because it was designed to fit straight into the original plans for the following story The Nightmare Fair, when the Doctor and Peri did pop to Blackpool to meet Michael Gough's Celestial Toymaker (we missed out there!). With all that being thrown out of the window for Series 23, plans changed, and the cut was made. I don't recall any more to it than that
As it stands, I also really like the open-ended last scene to Revelation. Like others here, at the time, I just thought it was always meant to be that way. Looking back now, I think the cut actually made the ending better. Part of me likes to think that they'd have leapt on the video game angle of The Nightmare Fair and put out a BBC Micro game based on the one in the serial as a market tie-in. Maybe even something that gains one of those urban legends about cursed cartridges. I like it a lot, it's one of those great little sequel stories that doesn't feel like a sequel. It's firing on all cylinders from beginning to end, Graham Williams's written an instant classic. It's a fun season opener.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2018 10:32:35 GMT
Wait... Are we talking about Revelation of the Daleks or are we talking about The Ultimate Foe? I can remember the two butting heads over the end of Trial because Saward wanted to keep Holmes' time rent ending and JNT wanted something more optimistic, but I don't recall that being a factor for Revelation's ending. The disagreement over creative differences came a year later with Season 23. No, I'm not talking about Ultimate Foe - they'd not been on good terms long before that, and as we discovered in his tell-all expose in the infamous Starburst interview Eric had not been happy with the direction JNT wanted for the past few years and had been at loggerheads since at least Davison's last year after the way Peter Grymwade was treated. Their relationship was to become intolerable a year later but even by S21, Saward and JNT were not getting on in any way shape or form. Again, are we discussing the broader relationship between JNT-Saward or what was happening behind-the-scenes specifically in regards to Revelation?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2018 10:36:25 GMT
No, I'm not talking about Ultimate Foe - they'd not been on good terms long before that, and as we discovered in his tell-all expose in the infamous Starburst interview Eric had not been happy with the direction JNT wanted for the past few years and had been at loggerheads since at least Davison's last year after the way Peter Grymwade was treated. Their relationship was to become intolerable a year later but even by S21, Saward and JNT were not getting on in any way shape or form. Again, are we discussing the broader relationship between JNT-Saward or what was happening behind-the-scenes specifically in regards to Revelation? Both. I was responding to Daver's two points that "JNT and Saward thought" and "JNT and Saward did.." when discussing the end of Revelation when by then there was no "JNT and Saward" - they were very much not acting with one voice long before then.
|
|