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Post by nucleusofswarm on Mar 2, 2019 0:34:44 GMT
In honour of Graeme Curry, let's talk about his delightfully odd, and even poignant, contribution to McCoy's era. What did you think, favourite bits etc.
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Post by Sir Wearer of Hats on Mar 2, 2019 0:55:42 GMT
I love the idea that the Doctor is like a god of chaos, he’ll turn up and judge your society and tear it down if he doesn’t like what he sees. This is that in quintessence. One night. The Doctor as a catelyst for change. There are some lovely performances from the cast, McCoy clowning around with purpose. Ace finally given something to properly rage against. The Candyman is a joy.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2019 1:19:18 GMT
I love the adult fable at the heart of it: It's okay to cry. Sometimes you have to, in order to return to life's little joys. That's remarkably mature for any programme.
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Post by newt5996 on Mar 2, 2019 4:32:02 GMT
I love the adult fable at the heart of it: It's okay to cry. Sometimes you have to, in order to return to life's little joys. That's remarkably mature for any programme. Quite interesting when quite a few criticisms of the McCoy era is that it turned Who into a children’s show. Yet that could only be true in season 24, while 25 and 26 contain some of the most adult Doctor Who on television.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2019 10:55:14 GMT
I love the adult fable at the heart of it: It's okay to cry. Sometimes you have to, in order to return to life's little joys. That's remarkably mature for any programme. Quite interesting when quite a few criticisms of the McCoy era is that it turned Who into a children’s show. Yet that could only be true in season 24, while 25 and 26 contain some of the most adult Doctor Who on television. See, I never saw "children's show" as an insult because it implies that children are stupid and it's quite the opposite. They're uneducated, not incapable. I don't know who said it (might have been Tom Baker actually), but kids are your fiercest critics, so it's important not to patronise them. I don't know what it was about the late 80s, but television started tackling a lot of "street level" issues in a big way. MacGyver was doing animal poaching with mercy killing black rhinos, The Equalizer was doing gang violence spilling over into places like public schools and Doctor Who had one of its leads find a "No Coloureds" sign in a front window.
It even had the Doctor discussing consequences in the context of John's grandfather being part of the slave trade out of Africa. There's a frankness to the real world themes and subject matter that I don't think Who had tackled in that way in ages. And it's not even the point of the story either, it's just something that Ben Aaronovitch put in because thematically it resonated with the Daleks.
Getting back to The Happiness Patrol, the scene with the Doctor confronting the two assassins is remarkably thoughtful for suggesting: Maybe there's a reason why the gunman is a sniper. Maybe there's a reason he doesn't get too close to what he kills. Lovely bit of acting from Sylvester McCoy. It's never said outright, but there's this nice implication that if he pulled the trigger and killed the Doctor, he'd develop a conscience. The same conscience his colleague seems to have developed. One which would keep him up at night. A far cry from the straightforward goodies and baddies of a Saturday morning matinee.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2019 11:10:14 GMT
I love the adult fable at the heart of it: It's okay to cry. Sometimes you have to, in order to return to life's little joys. That's remarkably mature for any programme. Quite interesting when quite a few criticisms of the McCoy era is that it turned Who into a children’s show. Yet that could only be true in season 24, while 25 and 26 contain some of the most adult Doctor Who on television. Any excuse to discuss The Happiness Patrol is okay with me! Interesting indeed that stories like this are lazily are lazily dismissed as 'something out of the CBeebies' - producer JNT was instructed to make the show more child-friendly after the equally lazy criticisms of Series 22. So when children's TV hero Sylvester McCoy was cast, and the stories eased back on 'violence' and 'horror', what did the BBC do? Schedule it on a week-night, later than it had ever been shown to date! As we know now, the Beeb didn't know what to do with the show and were quietly, cynically and unforgivably killing it.
The production is the most convincing depiction of a child's nightmare I can imagine. Everything has an unreal, heightened quality about it - the performances, the style, the sets and most of all, The Kandyman! As I always say, imagine this shrieking sweetie delivered to us with today's production standards, camera angles and lighting, looming out of the sickly, syrupy steam of the psychedelic killer's kitchen!
The story itself is superb, but I remember friends at the time, still reeling from the expensive, expansive Remembrance of the Daleks before it, dismissing it as 'silly'. Of course, a series full of traditional, explosion-fuelled, 'gritty' stories would probably have done the ratings a favour, but Doctor Who under the Cartmel era was never that predictable, and I love it all the more for it. Among the great performances, Sheila Hancock brings a genuine tear to the eye, even amidst all the lift music and murderous slot machines, when she finally reveals true emotion at the finale.
A favourite story of mine to be sure. RIP and thank you, Graeme Curry.
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Post by Timelord007 on Mar 2, 2019 12:53:59 GMT
Great story, one I've appreciated more on subsequent rewatches, pity this didn't get any location filming to give the production a bigger scope but overall a entertaining dark humoured three parter.
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Post by mark687 on Mar 2, 2019 14:05:25 GMT
I honestly think its one of the best narratives of the 8Os Era with the 2nd worse costume design choice (Kandyman) of that time.
The "Sniper" scene and his final scene Helen A are 2 of the best Sylvester McCoy's ever done, The Doctor's now Morally pro-active in dealing with the Darker sides of Human Nature to make things Right, and that's thrilling to see
Shelia Handcock and Harold Innocent are brilliant in this.
An underrated gem
Regards
mark687
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Post by newt5996 on Mar 2, 2019 15:46:52 GMT
Quite interesting when quite a few criticisms of the McCoy era is that it turned Who into a children’s show. Yet that could only be true in season 24, while 25 and 26 contain some of the most adult Doctor Who on television. See, I never saw "children's show" as an insult because it implies that children are stupid and it's quite the opposite. They're uneducated, not incapable. I don't know who said it (might have been Tom Baker actually), but kids are your fiercest critics, so it's important not to patronise them. I don't know what it was about the late 80s, but television started tackling a lot of "street level" issues in a big way. MacGyver was doing animal poaching with mercy killing black rhinos, The Equalizer was doing gang violence spilling over into places like public schools and Doctor Who had one of its leads find a "No Coloureds" sign in a front window.
It even had the Doctor discussing consequences in the context of John's grandfather being part of the slave trade out of Africa. There's a frankness to the real world themes and subject matter that I don't think Who had tackled in that way in ages. And it's not even the point of the story either, it's just something that Ben Aaronovitch put in because thematically it resonated with the Daleks.
Getting back to The Happiness Patrol, the scene with the Doctor confronting the two assassins is remarkably thoughtful for suggesting: Maybe there's a reason why the gunman is a sniper. Maybe there's a reason he doesn't get too close to what he kills. Lovely bit of acting from Sylvester McCoy. It's never said outright, but there's this nice implication that if he pulled the trigger and killed the Doctor, he'd develop a conscience. The same conscience his colleague seems to have developed. One which would keep him up at night. A far cry from the straightforward goodies and baddies of a Saturday morning matinee.
And there’s a reason why this was the first doctor who dvd I bought. Mostly for the Kandyman because I was extremely curious as to what he was about.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2019 23:36:17 GMT
See, I never saw "children's show" as an insult because it implies that children are stupid and it's quite the opposite. They're uneducated, not incapable. I don't know who said it (might have been Tom Baker actually), but kids are your fiercest critics, so it's important not to patronise them. I don't know what it was about the late 80s, but television started tackling a lot of "street level" issues in a big way. MacGyver was doing animal poaching with mercy killing black rhinos, The Equalizer was doing gang violence spilling over into places like public schools and Doctor Who had one of its leads find a "No Coloureds" sign in a front window.
It even had the Doctor discussing consequences in the context of John's grandfather being part of the slave trade out of Africa. There's a frankness to the real world themes and subject matter that I don't think Who had tackled in that way in ages. And it's not even the point of the story either, it's just something that Ben Aaronovitch put in because thematically it resonated with the Daleks.
Getting back to The Happiness Patrol, the scene with the Doctor confronting the two assassins is remarkably thoughtful for suggesting: Maybe there's a reason why the gunman is a sniper. Maybe there's a reason he doesn't get too close to what he kills. Lovely bit of acting from Sylvester McCoy. It's never said outright, but there's this nice implication that if he pulled the trigger and killed the Doctor, he'd develop a conscience. The same conscience his colleague seems to have developed. One which would keep him up at night. A far cry from the straightforward goodies and baddies of a Saturday morning matinee. And there’s a reason why this was the first doctor who dvd I bought. Mostly for the Kandyman because I was extremely curious as to what he was about. Dark comedy mostly. I know the costume got the production team into a bit of trouble, but I have a great soft spot for the Kandyman. He fits the Terra Alpha chic of shantytowns painted up in bright colours to seem more cheerful. The shrill, genuinely maniacal voice is what makes it work. That and the relationship he has with his creator. Gilbert M isn't so much mad as he is hapless:
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Post by Sir Wearer of Hats on Mar 3, 2019 20:29:23 GMT
That last scene is powerful, but I do wonder if it would have held the same weight if it ended with the Doctor comforting Helen A? You can be compassionate towards someone you don’t like after all.
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lidar2
Castellan
You know, now that you mention it, I actually do rather like Attack of the Cybermen ...
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Post by lidar2 on Mar 4, 2019 12:17:48 GMT
I remember a time in the early 1990s when so much of the fan discussion on this story concerned how it was "about" gay rights ad I remember a fanzine called Skaro had an article by Matt Jones which was basically making that case very persuasively. [Whilst gay rights may not be the most up to date term in 2019, it is the one I remember reading at the time]
It's funny how times and perceptions change - it is now not mentioned very much at all in relation to this story and hasn't, so far as I can see, been mentioned in this thread at all. I remember watching the Making of... documentary on the DVD and being amazed that gay rights was hardly mentioned, if at all.
That observation is just an aside. In terms of the story itself, it is first class and has a lot to say for itself. I generally however prefer my Who to be realistic rather than metaphorical, so it's a 4.5 out of 5 rather than a 5 out of 5 for me.
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Post by Tim Bradley on Mar 5, 2019 11:20:58 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2019 1:44:38 GMT
I've always liked it. I hate that when lazy panel shows want to show what crappy Doctor Who looked like they wheeled out a still of Kandyman, missing the context entirely that on this planet even the monsters were to make you smile. The stuff with Helen A is more than a little on the nose but I don't care - it's taking a stand and I'd applaud the show for doing that rather than try and sit on the fence.
I think it's one of McCoys better performances too and I really enjoy Sheila Hancock even if she's been more than a little sniffy about Who fans.
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Post by whiskeybrewer on Mar 25, 2019 13:02:43 GMT
I do feel that Red was a big finish remake of sorts to this
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Post by theotherjosh on Mar 25, 2019 13:52:31 GMT
My favorite bit of trivia comes from an interview where Cartmel discusses the Thatcher subtext:
I remember saying to Graeme [Curry], yeah, yeah, making it an attack on Thatcherism, totally. Then, of course, we'd soft pedal, saying no, no, of course it's not like that. Then Sheila Hancock, without anybody saying anything to her, totally latched on to it and just played it like Thatcher. So Graeme and Sheila would go to conventions together and someone would ask if Happiness Patrol was an attack on Thatcherism and Graeme would feel obliged to waffle for a bit, knowing he might get me into hot water if he said yes, then Sheila would say 'Of course it was!'
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Post by Sir Wearer of Hats on Mar 25, 2019 20:36:59 GMT
It is also one of thos stories that you can imagine any Doctor in. Some of the individual “character moments” would be different (I can imagine an empassioned plea from the tenth Doctor to th snipers about killing swinging from fury to deep sadness or the thirtheenth hugging Helen A as she wept).
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Post by newt5996 on Mar 26, 2019 1:18:33 GMT
I'd argue that this story is one example of how to intertwine a political message into the plot without letting it overrun the story and without letting it be just one or two mentions of a message which would stand out like sore thumbs (something which was a real issue in Series 9 and to a lesser extent Series 10). There's a real sense of dark fun yet almost a bit of understanding for Helen A as a person: she wants to see Terra Alpha succeed even if it's devolved into a totalitarian state which is entirely her fault.
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Post by Sir Wearer of Hats on Mar 29, 2019 21:46:10 GMT
All across the city, the sounds of revolution were to be heard, but only in one place was to be found someone unhappy at hearing them. HelenA, once the ruler of Terra Alpha slunk and scurried her way towards escape, mutteringto herself. “Ohh NOW they’re happy? Ingrates. I did everything for them and they repay my simple requests with hatred...” “You can’t have happiness without sadness,” a voice said from behind her. Helen A turned to see the Doctor, her clothes were still covered in sugar dust and there was marzipan in her hair, but she looked calm and, to Helen, the epitome of everything she despised. “Two sides of rhe same coin. One defines the other”. “Keep your petty philosophy, and keep your damn coin! I’ll find a place where people know how to be happy!” The Doctor sighed. “I’ve looked. Take it from me, someone who has looked for someone like that all my lives. And it doesn’t exist. You can only find your happiness in the now, not in the elsewhere,”and then almost as an aside she added, “That sounds like a Disney lyric”. Further comment was interrupted by the sound of an apex predator suffering in terminal pain. “FIFI!” A small creature, a pathetic sack of broken bones and ruptured organs limped towards Helen A. The one thought propelling it forward was to find safety, to find it’s mistress. And when it smelt her, the reek of perfume and hatred that always sourrounded her, it expired without another sound. No sound left Helen A. She cradled the broken form and shook. The Doctor watched, for a moment before bending over and hugging Helen A. A being who knew loss and sadness all to intimately counselling someone who tried to run away from those emotions. Helen A finally wept.
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Post by doctorkernow on Mar 30, 2019 18:35:38 GMT
Hello again.
And that Sir Wearer of Hats is why The Happiness Patrol is so bittersweet. Thank you for posting that. A universal truth that was also explored in Pixar's Inside Out, joy and sadness are both part of the human experience.
I originally saw this story in black and white so the colour version was a bit of a shock. The cast were excellent, my favourite being Sheila Hancock.Her experience added the necessary bite and at the end pathos to the character Helen A.
The story was full of memorable moments. Beneath the painted smiley faces was a brutal suppressive regime. A candy-coated monster sat at the centre of Helen A's utopian ideals. It demonstrates the need for a system of checks and balances upon those who run our country.
Graeme Curry wrote a Who Classic, I just wish we could have seen more of his imagination let loose in the Whoniverse.
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