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Post by Sir Wearer of Hats on Dec 6, 2015 22:22:55 GMT
Anyone else catch Ashildyr saying "summer never lasts"? Why does summer never last? Because Winter is Coming.
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Post by icecreamdf on Dec 6, 2015 23:06:22 GMT
Ashildyr called Missy "the Master", suggesting they've met, and IIRC one hell of a negotiator. Me has lived for a very long time though. All that conversation proved was that she has heard of her at some point. I don't get the impression that Missy is on great terms with the Time Lords right now. Rassilon was still president at the beginning of this episode, and the ending of End of Time makes it seem that we may have the Master to thank for Timothy Dalton's absence from the role. Besides, if the Time Lords did send the Master to get the Doctor, I don't think she would be able to resist doing it personally.
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Post by Hieronymus on Dec 7, 2015 1:19:02 GMT
I can't believe Rassilon would just do one, Daltons incarnation wouldn't have? The Master might have forced it. They were in a face-to-face showdown the last time we saw Dalton's Rassilon.
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Post by Hieronymus on Dec 7, 2015 1:23:31 GMT
So, when the 11th Doctor met Amy, Rory, and River in the diner, was it actually the stolen TARDIS, or was that TARDIS just copying the diner for this story?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2015 1:49:35 GMT
So, when the 11th Doctor met Amy, Rory, and River in the diner, was it actually the stolen TARDIS, or was that TARDIS just copying the diner for this story? From memory, the Eleventh Doctor popped out of the back room in the TARDIS, so the latter seems more likely than the former. A mixed bag, great opening but it lacked a certain threat element & I'm not convinced the Doctor would break all those laws for one person, i thought he'd learned his lesson from Water's Of Mars. It was more that he just didn't have time to deal then anything else. Clara died and he was locked away with the Spectre for two million years - for me, it made sense that he spiralled off into the maelstrom we saw here, past history be damned, particularly since it was his own people who he gave so much of his soul for. It suddenly occurred to me that this entire episode was basically the Doctor venting.
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Post by Sir Wearer of Hats on Dec 7, 2015 6:17:07 GMT
So, when the 11th Doctor met Amy, Rory, and River in the diner, was it actually the stolen TARDIS, or was that TARDIS just copying the diner for this story? The Doctor does say he remembers the diner being on the other side of the mountain, so it's probably a copy.
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Post by Hieronymus on Dec 7, 2015 6:21:13 GMT
So, when the 11th Doctor met Amy, Rory, and River in the diner, was it actually the stolen TARDIS, or was that TARDIS just copying the diner for this story? The Doctor does say he remembers the diner being on the other side of the mountain, so it's probably a copy. Ah, but it could also be that the TARDIS-diner landed in a slightly different spot the other time, couldn't it?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2015 6:30:48 GMT
The Doctor does say he remembers the diner being on the other side of the mountain, so it's probably a copy. Ah, but it could also be that the TARDIS-diner landed in a slightly different spot the other time, couldn't it? No, because the Doctor used the rest room, which is the console room in Clara's TARDIS
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Post by Ela on Dec 7, 2015 7:53:10 GMT
Ah, but it could also be that the TARDIS-diner landed in a slightly different spot the other time, couldn't it? No, because the Doctor used the rest room, which is the console room in Clara's TARDIS Well, yes, we saw him walk out of a door labelled "rest room" but how do we know it was really the rest room? You can't tell, really, when he's walking through that door into the diner.
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Post by acousticwolf on Dec 7, 2015 8:53:16 GMT
No, because the Doctor used the rest room, which is the console room in Clara's TARDIS Well, yes, we saw him walk out of a door labelled "rest room" but how do we know it was really the rest room? You can't tell, really, when he's walking through that door into the diner. I've been to that Diner and there is definitely a TARDIS door on the other side of the rest room door Cheers Tony EDIT: In context tho', I get the impression that the original Diner, was just a Diner
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2015 11:11:30 GMT
No, because the Doctor used the rest room, which is the console room in Clara's TARDIS Well, yes, we saw him walk out of a door labelled "rest room" but how do we know it was really the rest room? You can't tell, really, when he's walking through that door into the diner. No, but if that was Clara's console room he was walking out of then timelimes are messed up even more than I think they are.
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Post by randomjc on Dec 7, 2015 12:49:09 GMT
I have no idea what to make of this episode. I'm seeing a lot of love for it, but I don't know. I think I may have to re watch it, but i felt it was just an ok episode.
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Post by TinDogPodcast on Dec 7, 2015 13:00:04 GMT
I can't see there being an issue
The plastic shell is both the inside and outside of the diner
Like the masters tardis when it's a circus truck.
The cabin/diner are 3d. But not the console room
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Post by mrperson on Dec 7, 2015 13:28:19 GMT
On first watch.... no me gusta.
Yet another unconvincing arc that fizzled into irrelevance.
Yet another dead, but oh look, not dead. Now she can wait a thousand years....a million years...to return. She can live far longer than she would have. That's going farther than simply changing time to save her.
(And now what? A spin-off set up with Clara and Me snarking around the universe?)
All that fuss was made about how Gallifrey can't return because it was corrupted in the Time War, then it just so happens that it returned quietly without any problems other than Rassilon still being a jerk. Worse, Gallifrey returned as a mere plot device to bring Clara back.
And....How does wiping the Doctor's memory prevent them from tracking Me's TARDIS and dealing with Clara anyway?
And...the new sonic looking more like a magic wand then ever.
Finally, I don't mind the Doctor occasionally killing people - he did it with some regularity in the original series - but shooting the general didn't seem to make any sense. He could have left easily by simply keeping the gun pointed at him. It's not like the general was running towards him. It struck me as a painfully contrived way to show a sex-change regeneration on screen. The purpose was simply to further cement the concept as a thing that happens on Who now, for the sake of its happening on Who.
Moffat doesn't seem to have the slightest clue how to land his arcs. Tremendous effort goes into the set-up, hints hidden here and there, and then it splutters out.
I loved Heaven Sent. Not this. As my wife remarked at the end, "Ummmm.... ok."
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Post by mrperson on Dec 7, 2015 14:00:59 GMT
I'd also add, the whole resolution failed to work for another reason: Moffat already introduced the cheat that would have made all that unnecessary. All the Doctor had to do was track down the Teleselecta and make them do another impersonation act, this time of Clara dying at Trap Street. She'd be saved and time wouldn't unravel.
And another: Me's use here. The reboot has already pegged the heat death of the universe at somewhere beyond 100 trillion years (Utopia); that's several orders of magnitude greater than the time the Doctor spent in the dial. We're supposed to believe that she lived all that time and didn't (1) suffer a the kind of accident the chip couldn't repair (her space ship exploding), (2) is perfectly sane and chatty when the Doctor finally shows up?
100,000,000,000,000+ years old?
Not buying it.
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Post by whiskeybrewer on Dec 7, 2015 14:17:12 GMT
This was a fantastic end to this season. I do think that old Rassilon was just a drained and aged Timothy Dalton after Master/Missy, drained him of energy and life.
and love that the General was the only time she'd been a bloke lol. and yes i would so by a boxset of "Clara and Me"
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Post by david on Dec 7, 2015 15:07:47 GMT
I've seen quite a lot of "Why didn't they just get Dalton back?" posts. Well...he got 250K for End Of Time. Donald Sumpter comes a bit cheaper I'd imagine (hence even Sarah Jane Adventures got him on board). I think he's a good budget replacement. One thing I particularly loved.... SPACE GLASGOW
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Post by icecreamdf on Dec 7, 2015 15:16:22 GMT
I'd also add, the whole resolution failed to work for another reason: Moffat already introduced the cheat that would have made all that unnecessary. All the Doctor had to do was track down the Teleselecta and make them do another impersonation act, this time of Clara dying at Trap Street. She'd be saved and time wouldn't I think the Raven can tell the difference between Clara and the Tesselecta.
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Post by mrperson on Dec 7, 2015 15:32:26 GMT
I'd also add, the whole resolution failed to work for another reason: Moffat already introduced the cheat that would have made all that unnecessary. All the Doctor had to do was track down the Teleselecta and make them do another impersonation act, this time of Clara dying at Trap Street. She'd be saved and time wouldn't I think the Raven can tell the difference between Clara and the Tesselecta. Maybe. I'm just tired of what feels to me like cop-out after cop-out. But now that you mention the raven.....wasn't it supposed to be able to find its mark anywhere in spacetime? Shouldn't it have tracked her to Gallifrey in short order? Shouldn't it be able to track her to the TARDIS he stole for her? If not, then you can run from the raven. Seems to me that either the main plot of this episode is fatally flawed, or the main plot of Face the Raven was fatally flawed.
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Post by Ela on Dec 7, 2015 16:11:51 GMT
I think the Raven can tell the difference between Clara and the Tesselecta. Maybe. I'm just tired of what feels to me like cop-out after cop-out. But now that you mention the raven.....wasn't it supposed to be able to find its mark anywhere in spacetime? Shouldn't it have tracked her to Gallifrey in short order? Shouldn't it be able to track her to the TARDIS he stole for her? If not, then you can run from the raven. Seems to me that either the main plot of this episode is fatally flawed, or the main plot of Face the Raven was fatally flawed. I don't see how it was a cop-out. She wasn't actually brought back to life and the episode did not imply that she was alive for all that time that the Doctor was trapped (however many billions of years that was supposed to be). What I understood was that the Time Lords brought her to consciousness (not to life - no heartbeat) for what was meant to be a brief moment between the next to the last and last heartbeat before her death. It turned out to be a little more than that, but she still has no heartbeat and she herself still understands that her death is actually a fixed point in time and inevitable. One more heartbeat. I think the episode was more about the Doctor's unwillingness to let go of a companion.
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