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Post by nucleusofswarm on Mar 10, 2023 23:46:31 GMT
For years, this was a story celebrated as the pinnacle of its era, one of Tom's best and possibly Robert Holmes' finest hour in an already strong decade. But time marches on and I've noticed more and more the highlighting of, well, the yellowface and the serial's depiction of Chinese culture frontloading more modern comments and reactions (to say nothing of the infamous blowup a couple of years back) ahead of the story itself. Do you think we will reach a point where those aspects will just be a bridge too much for newer fans and Talons will lose its place as a bonafide classic of the era, instead becoming more of a Tintin in the Congo or Song of the South?
(And for the sake of clarity, this is not a 'pro/anti-censorship' or 'if it stays in circulation' thread. This is just about the stature of the story itself.)
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Post by timleschild on Mar 10, 2023 23:59:06 GMT
Yes
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Post by theillusiveman on Mar 11, 2023 0:32:40 GMT
No
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Post by Star Platinum on Mar 11, 2023 0:38:51 GMT
For years, this was a story celebrated as the pinnacle of its era, one of Tom's best and possibly Robert Holmes' finest hour in an already strong decade. But time marches on and I've noticed more and more the highlighting of, well, the yellowface and the serial's depiction of Chinese culture frontloading more modern comments and reactions (to say nothing of the infamous blowup a couple of years back) ahead of the story itself. Do you think we will reach a point where those aspects will just be a bridge too much for newer fans and Talons will lose its place as a bonafide classic of the era, instead becoming more of a Tintin in the Congo or Song of the South?
(And for the sake of clarity, this is not a 'pro/anti-censorship' or 'if it stays in circulation' thread. This is just about the stature of the story itself.)
In the fullness of time, I wouldn't be wholly surprised if Talons fell in it's ranking amongst the Who community. I know there are arguments that it was a product of it's time, but realistically, this is the same show that also put out the Mind of Evil six years earlier, which was much more nuanced in this regard. What I would like to see come from this is looking at the stories of the era as less of a monolith. While Robert Holmes did write the story, I doubt he was the one that cast John Bennet as Chang. Hold him accountable for the stereotyping, but he isn't the only responsible party. At the very least, Phillip Hinchecliff should have told to pump the brakes at the very least. (Given that this was his last story, i think he probably wasn't scrutinizing the script as closely as he should have.) I know that while many people enjoy the Robert Holmes era, it's flaws certainly have come to light in the past few years. The Racism in Talons often is the first cited example, but gender equality also wasn't great in that era either. Take The Deadly Assassin for example, a quick glance at it's wiki page shows only a single actress in it in a voice over role. IIRC it was also commented on in the BTS for Foe from the Future about the lack of female characters in that script. Ultimately in a case like Talons, I don't think it's worth pulling the story. While I doubt it'll ever reach Song of the South levels of infamy, I do think that this is an important conversation to have, and it is something the BBC should look at. I know Disney has begin placing cards in front of some their older animated moves with dicey content in them regarding race and sexism, I think that would be an appropriate measure in this circumstance. Perhaps also they should look into doing a feature on the next rerelease of talons holding it up to a critical examination of these themes and showing how it was something the franchise has left in the past. Now, as far as racist sci-fi that shouldn't be in circulation. Star Trek: TNG's Code of Honour is one far more deserving of being cancelled. If that had been "accidentally" dropped into an incinerator, I don't think anyone would have complained. Wow, what a stunning and thought provoking contribution to this discussion. This topic is enriched by this comment and I'm sure without it this topic would certainly be much the poorer without this insightful and well thought out comment.
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Post by aussiedoctorwhofan on Mar 11, 2023 0:41:03 GMT
No. I have to believe that people nowadays are smart enough to understand it's not "current thinking". Not interested in a debate just my honest opinion.
With my ethnicity, the country my parents,aunties/uncles/grandparents were born in was invaded repeatedly and sort of temporarily "conquered"... All our lives we have gone to school/worked with people of that particular ethnicity. It always comes up : "no hard feelings I know it wasn't you specifically so no victimhood/hand out mentality".
This was something we were taught when we were old enough to realise we weren't 3rd generation Aussies.. There have been a couple movies made about particular people from my background culture- the actors/actresses are 101% Not my ethnicity.
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shutupbanks
Castellan
There’s a horror movie called Alien? That’s really offensive. No wonder everyone keeps invading you.
Likes: 5,678
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Post by shutupbanks on Mar 11, 2023 0:48:33 GMT
I think it will be marketed less as a classic and just as an unfortunate misstep, much like apologists have been trying to do with D. W. Griffiths Birth Of A Nation. You can counter the racism as being a deliberate attempt at highlighting the poor attitudes of the Victorian era, but the blatant “yellow face” really does take a lot of that away from it.
Honestly though, Art goes out of favour and isn’t regarded as essential/vital all the time. Most work is forgotten because it doesn’t speak to people for long enough. The example I always use is The Honeymooners: it was ridiculously popular on transmission in the 1950s and in repeats, and the dialogue and plots stayed in the vernacular much in the way that I Love Lucy had. By the late 70s/early 80s it had just become part of the background furniture of television. However, after Back To The Future made a reference to it, people started looking at it closely again, and a remake was even mooted. But attitudes had changed and lines like “One of these days, Alice… POW! Right to the moon.” were just not funny any more. And it faded into obscurity.
Talons is a great piece of television but it was produced in a way that has become horribly dated in some ways. I think that it will some day be regarded as a flawed classic and as a textbook case of how society has changed. The trouble with long-form television is that no matter how well-regarded a show can be, you always have to look at the whole of it and that includes the low points. You can look at some great pieces of progressive, thoughtful work - like the bulk of the Pertwee era which attempted a lot of nuance that didn’t always come off - but you also have to look at some technically brilliant pieces that just don’t carry the same weight that they once did. Trek has to do the same with episodes like Turnabout Intruder or Angel One or Code Of Honor which don’t carry the same message as the rest of the show tries to.
Great Art will always survive. Lesser work can hang on as a curiosity if the bulk of what it’s attached to is good enough. Otherwise, it just withers and dies and gets forgotten about except as a footnote. If the cost of a better, more equitable society is that we don’t think as highly of things that we used to like, I’m happy to pay that price.
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Post by mark687 on Mar 11, 2023 1:04:49 GMT
No
You could in theory re-edit and Deep Fake Li-Sen and cut a few lines and its "Issues" would be sorted.
As a story in its own right though it should remain regarded as one of the best.
Regards
mark687
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Post by theillusiveman on Mar 11, 2023 1:14:13 GMT
No You could in theory re-edit and Deep Fake Li-Sen and cut a few lines and its "Issues" would be sorted. As a story in its own right though it should remain regarded as one of the best. Regards mark687 Dear lord I hope they don’t do that after all the things that have happened recently with films and books censorship
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Post by Sir Wearer of Hats on Mar 11, 2023 2:08:35 GMT
I think for a time, it will. It will be “yuck, yellow face yellow peril” reactions. But after time, it it regain it’s “of it’s time…” nuance, but never back to “winning polls of best Who” levels.
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Post by shallacatop on Mar 11, 2023 6:48:05 GMT
I think it would lose its stature regardless of the depictions. That’s just a generational thing; the fanbase ages, new generations join and a different generation dominates. That gets reflected not only in the merchandise that’s put out, but the discourse of opinion. Very recently the Davison & McCoy eras are getting reappraised, as is the Smith era as the children of the time begin to use social media and interact with fandom.
The difference with The Talons of Weng-Chiang is that it’ll fare worse because of the depictions. Many won’t be able to see past those or even be comfortable with watching the story at all and that will have an impact on its ranking.
DWM are currently in the process of doing a 60 Year poll and the Pertwee and Baker T eras are this month’s topics; I’m fascinated to see how they do.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2023 12:38:26 GMT
No, I don't think so. I think The Talons of Weng-Chiang will always be regarded as a classic Doctor Who story and rightly so. I'm sure people will be clever enough to know that it wasn't made in 2023 and is a product of a bygone age. A great story is still a great story... giant rat aside!
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Mar 11, 2023 13:45:16 GMT
I think it will be marketed less as a classic and just as an unfortunate misstep, much like apologists have been trying to do with D. W. Griffiths Birth Of A Nation. You can counter the racism as being a deliberate attempt at highlighting the poor attitudes of the Victorian era, but the blatant “yellow face” really does take a lot of that away from it. Honestly though, Art goes out of favour and isn’t regarded as essential/vital all the time. Most work is forgotten because it doesn’t speak to people for long enough. The example I always use is The Honeymooners: it was ridiculously popular on transmission in the 1950s and in repeats, and the dialogue and plots stayed in the vernacular much in the way that I Love Lucy had. By the late 70s/early 80s it had just become part of the background furniture of television. However, after Back To The Future made a reference to it, people started looking at it closely again, and a remake was even mooted. But attitudes had changed and lines like “One of these days, Alice… POW! Right to the moon.” were just not funny any more. And it faded into obscurity. Talons is a great piece of television but it was produced in a way that has become horribly dated in some ways. I think that it will some day be regarded as a flawed classic and as a textbook case of how society has changed. The trouble with long-form television is that no matter how well-regarded a show can be, you always have to look at the whole of it and that includes the low points. You can look at some great pieces of progressive, thoughtful work - like the bulk of the Pertwee era which attempted a lot of nuance that didn’t always come off - but you also have to look at some technically brilliant pieces that just don’t carry the same weight that they once did. Trek has to do the same with episodes like Turnabout Intruder or Angel One or Code Of Honor which don’t carry the same message as the rest of the show tries to. Great Art will always survive. Lesser work can hang on as a curiosity if the bulk of what it’s attached to is good enough. Otherwise, it just withers and dies and gets forgotten about except as a footnote. If the cost of a better, more equitable society is that we don’t think as highly of things that we used to like, I’m happy to pay that price. This is a great reply.
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Mar 11, 2023 13:49:48 GMT
No You could in theory re-edit and Deep Fake Li-Sen and cut a few lines and its "Issues" would be sorted. As a story in its own right though it should remain regarded as one of the best. Regards mark687 Thing is, fandom tends to flatten the issues around Talons to just 'Guy in yellow makeup' - there's more to the question. Extend out - every Chinese character in the serial is either a villain or aligned with a villain - Chang, the Tong, Chang's assistant. Whereas Marco Polo and Aztecs had, despite also doing the painting, more nuance in having good and bad characters within those cultures, the closest to something not outright villanous is Litefoot saying the Chinese are 'odd people' when talking about the fireworks. We don't even have Four pull up any character on it - weird, considering he does so in other stories when dealing with something being dismissed or prejudiced against.
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Post by mark687 on Mar 11, 2023 14:36:04 GMT
No You could in theory re-edit and Deep Fake Li-Sen and cut a few lines and its "Issues" would be sorted. As a story in its own right though it should remain regarded as one of the best. Regards mark687 Thing is, fandom tends to flatten the issues around Talons to just 'Guy in yellow makeup' - there's more to the question. Extend out - every Chinese character in the serial is either a villain or aligned with a villain - Chang, the Tong, Chang's assistant. Whereas Marco Polo and Aztecs had, despite also doing the painting, more nuance in having good and bad characters within those cultures, the closest to something not outright villanous is Litefoot saying the Chinese are 'odd people' when talking about the fireworks. We don't even have Four pull up any character on it - weird, considering he does so in other stories when dealing with something being dismissed or prejudiced against. Now are we drifting into dangerous territory, are we suggesting we can no longer have humans who embrace a criminal or negative view of their culture, unless there's also a character from that culture with the contrasting view? IMO that's showing a lack of of respect for the audience. Regards mark687
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Mar 11, 2023 14:44:15 GMT
Thing is, fandom tends to flatten the issues around Talons to just 'Guy in yellow makeup' - there's more to the question. Extend out - every Chinese character in the serial is either a villain or aligned with a villain - Chang, the Tong, Chang's assistant. Whereas Marco Polo and Aztecs had, despite also doing the painting, more nuance in having good and bad characters within those cultures, the closest to something not outright villanous is Litefoot saying the Chinese are 'odd people' when talking about the fireworks. We don't even have Four pull up any character on it - weird, considering he does so in other stories when dealing with something being dismissed or prejudiced against. Now are we drifting into dangerous territory, are we suggesting we can no longer have humans who embrace a criminal or negative view of their culture, unless there's also a character from that culture with the contrasting view? IMO that's showing a lack of of respect for the audience. Regards mark687 I'm not sure that's really dangerous - the two stories I highlighted above did that, are older than Talons and still managed to tell compelling stories. Mind of Evil, another good reference point highlighted above. Perhaps 'good and bad' are a bit broad, but certainly more well-rounded portrayals of the cast might be a clearer phrasing.
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Post by ollychops on Mar 11, 2023 17:03:40 GMT
For me, the “of its time” excuse doesn’t really work as a defence since The Mind of Evil some 6 years earlier handled things far better than Talons by having an actual Asian actor in the role instead of a white actor in yellowface and had Pertwee speaking Hokkien as opposed to Tom speaking gobbledegook as Chinese.
That being said, I do like the story itself, and think it’s one of the few six-parters that doesn’t feel too padded out and the guest characters are great.
But in terms of the original question: in certain parts of the fandom, it has lost its stature, and other parts that still hold it in high regard.
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Post by martinw8686 on Mar 11, 2023 17:49:28 GMT
I've always loved Talons as a story, the Doctor dressed as Sherlock Holmes, Leela at her best, Jago and Lightfoot, great sets and a cracking villian in Greel.
Now we're talking about a nearly 50 year production that has these problematic elements.
I personally think a short warning before watching the original would be helpful and the option of watching a version with animated replacement scenes, a little like Shada, with newly scripted and rerecord vocals. New appropriate actors and a more nuanced portrayal of the characters portrayed.
Before I get purists foaming at the mouth, let me be clear that I think both my idea and the original version should be available as a choice.
It would be a shame to lose a classic story without the chance to salvage the many good attributes it has.
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Post by masterdoctor on Mar 11, 2023 18:00:07 GMT
For me, the “of its time” excuse doesn’t really work as a defence since The Mind of Evil some 6 years earlier handled things far better than Talons by having an actual Asian actor in the role instead of a white actor in yellowface and had Pertwee speaking Hokkien as opposed to Tom speaking gobbledegook as Chinese. That being said, I do like the story itself, and think it’s one of the few six-parters that doesn’t feel too padded out and the guest characters are great. But in terms of the original question: in certain parts of the fandom, it has lost its stature, and other parts that still hold it in high regard. I didn't know if I was going to respond to the question, but this is exactly it.
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Post by fitzoliverj on Mar 11, 2023 18:23:45 GMT
For me, the “of its time” excuse doesn’t really work as a defence since The Mind of Evil some 6 years earlier handled things far better than Talons by having an actual Asian actor in the role instead of a white actor in yellowface I think you may have missed something.
I tend to find that, in programs from the 1960s and 70s, Asian characters are usually played by white men in yellowface OR women of some at least approximately similar ethnicity. White actors, Chinese or Indian actresses, quite often together. In that regard, "The Mind of Evil" is not really much more advanced (particularly as the actress in question was.. what, the writer's wife? Something like that).
Essentially, this needs to be looked at not as a problem with "Talons" but television of the time. But there's also the question that needs to be asked - were there just more actresses from Asian backgrounds working in British television at the time than men? It may not make anything feel more comfortable but I think there's a need to be properly informed on the point.
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shutupbanks
Castellan
There’s a horror movie called Alien? That’s really offensive. No wonder everyone keeps invading you.
Likes: 5,678
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Post by shutupbanks on Mar 11, 2023 22:24:06 GMT
I think it will be marketed less as a classic and just as an unfortunate misstep, much like apologists have been trying to do with D. W. Griffiths Birth Of A Nation. You can counter the racism as being a deliberate attempt at highlighting the poor attitudes of the Victorian era, but the blatant “yellow face” really does take a lot of that away from it. Honestly though, Art goes out of favour and isn’t regarded as essential/vital all the time. Most work is forgotten because it doesn’t speak to people for long enough. The example I always use is The Honeymooners: it was ridiculously popular on transmission in the 1950s and in repeats, and the dialogue and plots stayed in the vernacular much in the way that I Love Lucy had. By the late 70s/early 80s it had just become part of the background furniture of television. However, after Back To The Future made a reference to it, people started looking at it closely again, and a remake was even mooted. But attitudes had changed and lines like “One of these days, Alice… POW! Right to the moon.” were just not funny any more. And it faded into obscurity. Talons is a great piece of television but it was produced in a way that has become horribly dated in some ways. I think that it will some day be regarded as a flawed classic and as a textbook case of how society has changed. The trouble with long-form television is that no matter how well-regarded a show can be, you always have to look at the whole of it and that includes the low points. You can look at some great pieces of progressive, thoughtful work - like the bulk of the Pertwee era which attempted a lot of nuance that didn’t always come off - but you also have to look at some technically brilliant pieces that just don’t carry the same weight that they once did. Trek has to do the same with episodes like Turnabout Intruder or Angel One or Code Of Honor which don’t carry the same message as the rest of the show tries to. Great Art will always survive. Lesser work can hang on as a curiosity if the bulk of what it’s attached to is good enough. Otherwise, it just withers and dies and gets forgotten about except as a footnote. If the cost of a better, more equitable society is that we don’t think as highly of things that we used to like, I’m happy to pay that price. This is a great reply. Thanks ☺️
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