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Post by martinw8686 on Apr 18, 2023 9:20:48 GMT
I've always had a soft spot for Trial, I feel it's unfairly maligned.
Firstly the Trial scenes aren't great, better writing was desperately needed and they do taint the episodes there attached to, especially Mindwarp.
But the adventures themselves are really good. The 6th Doctor is more settled and the stories feel like an attempt to recapture the glory days of the 70s.
So what do we think, underrated or deserves its reputation?
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Post by mark687 on Apr 18, 2023 11:03:55 GMT
Agreed but I really enjoy the Courtroom Scenes  Mysterious Planet the best one overall, I find Mindwarp a touch overrated Glitz is a very good addition, Mel's just sort of there Also the last act is kind of just there In hindsight still not sure the programme storyline mirroring the real life production situation was a good idea but so it was. Regards mark687 |
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Post by grinch on Apr 18, 2023 11:05:34 GMT
It’s a brilliant idea but its execution was sadly lacking in my opinion.
The conclusion was a complete mess (admittedly brought on by a lot of factors beyond the programmes control) but I actually think the individual stories are alright in their own right.
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Post by martinw8686 on Apr 18, 2023 14:26:00 GMT
Agreed but I really enjoy the Courtroom Scenes Mysterious Planet the best one overall, I find Mindwarp a touch overrated Glitz is a very good addition, Mel's just sort of there Also the last act is kind of just there In hindsight still not sure the programme storyline mirroring the real life production situation was a good idea but so it was. Regards mark687 I think the Trial scenes are a bit of a guilty pleasure. Some lines are great, the Doctor's speech on absolute power and corruption is good. The repeated insults of the Valeyard's name are tiresome and beneath the usual wit of the Doctor. If the Trial scenes were exclusively written by someone like Robert Holmes, I think we'd have something very special. Eric Saward had written some great stories for Peter Davison but unfortunately he let his prejudice of Colin influence the way he wrote stories featuring the 6th Doctor. Still, all in all, I always come back to Trial and enjoy the ride, I enjoy most of Colin's run, it's only really Timelash that I'd say was one I'll never watch again. |
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shutupbanks
Castellan
There’s a horror movie called Alien? That’s really offensive. No wonder everyone keeps invading you.
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Post by shutupbanks on Apr 18, 2023 23:12:24 GMT
It’s all downhill after that wonderful opening sequence on the Time Lord space station. The Mysterious Planet is great fun and looks amazing. Mindwarp is okay, Terror Of The Vervoids is a murder mystery set on the least-populated cruise ship in the universe and Ultimate Foe is a mess held together by some great set pieces. As a whole, it just follows that pattern of Who starting out a season looking good but descending into cheapness and “look, let’s just get it finished”-ness by the end of it.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2023 2:40:03 GMT
It’s all downhill after that wonderful opening sequence on the Time Lord space station. The Mysterious Planet is great fun and looks amazing. Mindwarp is okay, Terror Of The Vervoids is a murder mystery set on the least-populated cruise ship in the universe and Ultimate Foe is a mess held together by some great set pieces. As a whole, it just follows that pattern of Who starting out a season looking good but descending into cheapness and “look, let’s just get it finished”-ness by the end of it. What I've never understood - and in the JNT era there are a LOT of decisions that could mean - is what the thinking was. Yeah, it looks WORLD CLASS. Then Colin steps out a shabby TARDIS prop in that costume and....it looks even cheaper than ever by comparison. And I REALLY don't understand how even the music for that model shot sequence is ten times better than the rest of the score. It's dense, moody, prog-like. Then after that? Back to the usual. The music wasn't a victim of "well, we spent all the money on the first minute" so there's no reason it didn't all sound better. |
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shutupbanks
Castellan
There’s a horror movie called Alien? That’s really offensive. No wonder everyone keeps invading you.
Likes: 5,677
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Post by shutupbanks on Apr 19, 2023 2:51:31 GMT
It’s all downhill after that wonderful opening sequence on the Time Lord space station. The Mysterious Planet is great fun and looks amazing. Mindwarp is okay, Terror Of The Vervoids is a murder mystery set on the least-populated cruise ship in the universe and Ultimate Foe is a mess held together by some great set pieces. As a whole, it just follows that pattern of Who starting out a season looking good but descending into cheapness and “look, let’s just get it finished”-ness by the end of it. What I've never understood - and in the JNT era there are a LOT of decisions that could mean - is what the thinking was. Yeah, it looks WORLD CLASS. Then Colin steps out a shabby TARDIS prop in that costume and....it looks even cheaper than ever by comparison. And I REALLY don't understand how even the music for that model shot sequence is ten times better than the rest of the score. It's dense, moody, prog-like. Then after that? Back to the usual. The music wasn't a victim of "well, we spent all the money on the first minute" so there's no reason it didn't all sound better. One of the ways I have of breaking in a new tv is the Star Wars test: what does the opening couple of minutes of A New Hope after the screen crawl look like. That still stands up after 45-odd years. This is of a similar quality. There’s so much detail and intricacy in it, even when you take the long tracking shot with all its twists and turns into account. I watched it on a bog standard 50cm CRT back in 1986 and I was blown away by it. Then we get a bog-standard production of an ok script. Drathro looks good but that’s really about it. Nothing else in the entire season screamed “this is a show that should be saved” quite like that opening shot. My expectations were raised and stayed that way until, as you said, Colin steps out of the TARDIS and we get veneer walls and gold-painted pipes again. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2023 2:58:23 GMT
You can't really divorce an opinion without factoring in the drama backstage. Not only was the show on life support but mid-series is where Saward spat the dummy and went to the press and shat ALL over the program. Made Who look like the most amateur operation ever, Colin a lame duck and Saward a snake.
Combine that with Holmes dying and the lawyers getting involved so that the finale didn't use anything he'd planned and it's a miracle it's even remotely watchable. The only other time Who was made under such restrictions was the last New Year ep and Flux, where Chibnall had to toss away most of his S13 ideas and alter what he could last minute. Likewise - how he made Flux so good is beyond me.
It's saved by a few things - Michael Jayston first and foremost. But a few small things would, well, not saved it but improved it and cost not a penny.
1. Keep Peri dead. Motivates The Doctor.
2. Ditch the costume. Yeah, we love it now we're just used to it but it DID make Colin a joke.
3. Sorry - Colin turned up after his paid year off about 40 pounds heavier - hard for the show to look rejuvinated when the lead has let himself
slip. Wouldn't be an issue if that was how he started but it adds to the feel of decay and no real care around the show. Diet and excercise.
4. Telling Colin to grow his hair out as people loved Tom's hair was moronic. Cut his hair for that new costume. Fresh paint all round.
5. Don't do that stupid ending. THe BBC weren't going to keep it on air JUST to see where Colin was taking Mel. And BLACKPOOL? Jesus wept...
6. Fire Anthony Ainley - the way he delivers the reveal of The Valeyard as The Doctor is some of the worst acting ever. He does it as a run on
sentence and doesn't emphasise remotely how big a deal it is.
7. No Bonnie, I love Mel - she was the first companion in YEARS who wanted to be there...but her casting was seen as a farce back then and put
even more fans AND casual viewers off. That annoying screamer from Just William who does crappy variety shows was not a good idea. Again, this is
NOT personal, I like the character and Bonnie but the public didn't and anyone aware of the pop culture scene shoulda known that.
I could keep going. But hey, I could make a LOT more criticisms of the awful S24. That the show rebounded with the damn good S25 and the fantastic S26 is a miracle. But it was too late by then - this era had lost the audience.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2023 3:03:54 GMT
What I've never understood - and in the JNT era there are a LOT of decisions that could mean - is what the thinking was. Yeah, it looks WORLD CLASS. Then Colin steps out a shabby TARDIS prop in that costume and....it looks even cheaper than ever by comparison. And I REALLY don't understand how even the music for that model shot sequence is ten times better than the rest of the score. It's dense, moody, prog-like. Then after that? Back to the usual. The music wasn't a victim of "well, we spent all the money on the first minute" so there's no reason it didn't all sound better. One of the ways I have of breaking in a new tv is the Star Wars test: what does the opening couple of minutes of A New Hope after the screen crawl look like. That still stands up after 45-odd years. This is of a similar quality. There’s so much detail and intricacy in it, even when you take the long tracking shot with all its twists and turns into account. I watched it on a bog standard 50cm CRT back in 1986 and I was blown away by it. Then we get a bog-standard production of an ok script. Drathro looks good but that’s really about it. Nothing else in the entire season screamed “this is a show that should be saved” quite like that opening shot. My expectations were raised and stayed that way until, as you said, Colin steps out of the TARDIS and we get veneer walls and gold-painted pipes again. Exactly. Imagine Saving Private Ryan followed it's opening iconic beach landing sequence with a micro budget exploitation film level WW2 movie? It would make the whole thing more jarring than if it was ALL cheapo. Again, JNT thinking - or lack of - was just moronic after about Davison's era and no-one above cared enough to tell him to buck up. The show was allowed to slip. Once the head honcho loses the passion AND has no ideas worth a damn the only way is down or a change. We know it went down, and down. Only when Cartmel came in and essentially took half of JNT's job as well as the creative side, did the quality pick up again after he settled. |
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shutupbanks
Castellan
There’s a horror movie called Alien? That’s really offensive. No wonder everyone keeps invading you.
Likes: 5,677
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Post by shutupbanks on Apr 19, 2023 3:40:54 GMT
You can't really divorce an opinion without factoring in the drama backstage. Not only was the show on life support but mid-series is where Saward spat the dummy and went to the press and shat ALL over the program. Made Who look like the most amateur operation ever, Colin a lame duck and Saward a snake. Combine that with Holmes dying and the lawyers getting involved so that the finale didn't use anything he'd planned and it's a miracle it's even remotely watchable. The only other time Who was made under such restrictions was the last New Year ep and Flux, where Chibnall had to toss away most of his S13 ideas and alter what he could last minute. Likewise - how he made Flux so good is beyond me. It's saved by a few things - Michael Jayston first and foremost. But a few small things would, well, not saved it but improved it and cost not a penny. 1. Keep Peri dead. Motivates The Doctor. 2. Ditch the costume. Yeah, we love it now we're just used to it but it DID make Colin a joke. 3. Sorry - Colin turned up after his paid year off about 40 pounds heavier - hard for the show to look rejuvinated when the lead has let himself slip. Wouldn't be an issue if that was how he started but it adds to the feel of decay and no real care around the show. Diet and excercise. 4. Telling Colin to grow his hair out as people loved Tom's hair was moronic. Cut his hair for that new costume. Fresh paint all round. 5. Don't do that stupid ending. THe BBC weren't going to keep it on air JUST to see where Colin was taking Mel. And BLACKPOOL? Jesus wept... 6. Fire Anthony Ainley - the way he delivers the reveal of The Valeyard as The Doctor is some of the worst acting ever. He does it as a run on sentence and doesn't emphasise remotely how big a deal it is. 7. No Bonnie, I love Mel - she was the first companion in YEARS who wanted to be there...but her casting was seen as a farce back then and put even more fans AND casual viewers off. That annoying screamer from Just William who does crappy variety shows was not a good idea. Again, this is NOT personal, I like the character and Bonnie but the public didn't and anyone aware of the pop culture scene shoulda known that. I could keep going. But hey, I could make a LOT more criticisms of the awful S24. That the show rebounded with the damn good S25 and the fantastic S26 is a miracle. But it was too late by then - this era had lost the audience. The death of Peri was such a show-stopping moment, and to have it retconned to “lived sort of happily ever” really takes away from what it meant to the show. All your points are valid, Davy, and yes it is a miracle that it was made, but I’ll add that reducing the episode count really did mean that there was no faith in the show from the higher-ups. JNT also mentions in his BF memoir that he wanted to move on but couldn’t until he’d made the show a success again. Which led to the stunt casting (firstly of Bonnie) in so many other stories (Ken Dodd, Richard Briers, Nicholas Parsons) which was only occasionally successful and alienated fans because they felt it was a cheap grab for ratings. Which is ironic given how ubiquitous it became under RTD. Basically, Trial revealed just how up against it the show was. And you’re right because it is still better than Season 24. |
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Post by bonehead on Apr 19, 2023 8:44:22 GMT
To quickly touch on the death of Peri and subsequent change of story - I can fully understand why JNT did this. The show had been condemned for being too violent and not child-friendly, and Peri's exit was a genuinely shocking moment. At time of transmission, viewers had at least four weeks to get over that bombshell - to mourn a favourite character, if you like. So the shock had time to hit home - only then, at the end of the series, was it revealed that in fact, all was well. This new twist could then placate anyone who could use the death as a means to attack the show.
And let's face it, her 'final' moments made some great TV.
Oh, and I'll be honest - I loved the way AA delivered the Master's line about The Valeyard. I remember thinking, "Wh-what did he just say?"
Some great moments in an uneven series.
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Post by Sir Wearer of Hats on Apr 20, 2023 8:50:48 GMT
It’s a fine idea. … almost meta in conception.
It’s execution"…….. leaves A LOT to be desired. It makes parts of Flux look well executed.
But it did give us Pip and Jane and the last Bob. I love the sheer verve of Pip and Jane.
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