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Post by christmastrenzalore on Dec 10, 2023 17:07:38 GMT
This was probably the weakest of the 3 for me. I'll admit, I was pretty tired when I watched it, so that might have coloured my watching.
Ultimately, I just felt it was juggling too many elements. The social commentary doesn't really factor into the conflict in a tangeble way. Physically, there's only a couple of scenes for it, and thematically, I know the Doctor says he questions his own certainty in his actions. I can see that, but I just didn't FEEL it. It felt like the Doctor was tired, not conflicted.
This idea could have been a whole episode, and it ended up feeling like a throw-away back-drop.
The stuff with the Toymaker was great. NPH chews up every scene, and the messed up toy shop stuff was great.
I'm very conflicted about the whole bi-regeneration. Both in it's execution and conotations. It's something I'll probably come round to or reconcile. But if just feels like RTD broke one rule too many.
In a way, it's reflective of how I felt when Jodie regenerated. It was whistful, a little trepidatious, but hopeful for what came next. "Tag; you're it." And that's how reneration should feel to me. Bittersweet. Like all change usually does. Also, the transition, and post-regeration haze really sell the idea that this is the same person reformed. But all that was just done away with.
Like someone else said, the idea of a bi-regeneration, with two NEW Doctors, is something I often entertained. But keeping one of them... it just doesn't FEEL like Ncuti became the new Doctor. More like an offspring. Like Venom and Carnage. He just birthed some extra mass. And it probably didn't help that I found the catch sequence a bit oddly edited and played out.
I just think for the propper impact, regeration needs a feeling of finality.
On the other hand... maybe this has been lost for a while. Long before I ever even got into Doctor Who. How much transmedia is there now? How many currently acting Doctors? How many times has David Tennant come back alone? EDIT: Not to mention the Curator foreshadowing this exact eventuality.
It was a fine enough episode, and I liked callbacks to the past compaions. Gave it somewhat more of an anniversary vibe. As others have said, perhaps pairing it with Power of the Doctor as a prologue makes up for some of it's anniversary shortcomings.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2023 17:09:02 GMT
I finally saw The Giggle in its entirety. Bit of a mixed bag, I thought. These specials might be seen in retrospect as a very spectacular 'clearing up' session. Flux has been acknowledged, so has the Timeless Child. Only in passing, but it's there. That's a good thing, isn't it? I think it's a good thing. The Fifteenth Doctor really seems to be ushering in a new start.
The acting throughout is great, with David Tennant proving how much I'll miss him. Neil Patrick Harris is great as the Toymaker, as is his Jigsaw-style puppet - although when it comes to singing and dancing, Sasha's Master did it better.. Truly lovely to see Mel, who is 'no more opinionated than usual' so she says. There's also a sense of growing menace throughout the episode. "They shout, they type, they cancel," says the Toymaker at one point. I like that slight dig at modern day humans. ("We play the game again, Time Lord." I wish he'd said that!)
And so to the bi-regeneration. Usually, of course, the regeneration is the big spectacle, where we instantly mourn the death of one Doctor and are cautiously welcoming of a new one. Here, with all the other bangs and flashes, it was just another effect, which then ushered in a quick demise for the Toymaker, and some bonding between Ncuti and David's Doctors. It was odd more than anything, although I liked Number 14's "Feels different this time," line. A little tribute to the father-in-law's final words? And we never did find out why Jodie's clothes regenerated along with the rest of her. I guess RTD must have worried he'd look silly in her costume after all.
On the subject of RTD - "Parking. Is that rude?"
Well, it depends. If you're producing a show that has pubically striven to be as inoffensive as possible, it probably is. Then again, so is getting an actor to put on a cod/comedy German accent as the villain of the piece. Just a few weeks ago we were encouraged to re-evaluate Talons of Weng Chiang (made nearly 50 years ago, kids) because of a white actor playing a Chinese character. Are the parallels so very different? If you're offended by one thing, surely you must be offended by the other, no? A bit hypocritical. As I said last night on here, these double standards do seriously dent my enjoyment. But who cares what I think? We have a flambouyant new Doctor whizzing about the place, a slightly jumbled ending for Doctor 14 - perhaps he'll find a way to meet Rose (the original Rose) in that parallel universe and catch up with himself?
Still don't know what I thought of it all, to be honest, and at the moment I'm not in a massive hurry to rewatch. But one thing's very apparent. It's all very Disney.
Watching unleashed, RTD explains the accent as the toymaker making deliberate choices to affect racially offensive stereotypes. He's basically constructed an in-universe explanation for why he was dressed as a mandarin in the original, when he was clearly Caucasian. They try to emphasise this by having him behave in a racist way to the customer in the shop, but it just doesn't work. It needed a line somewhere with the doctor calling him out on the accent and him responding that he was doing deliberately it to offend people.
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Post by bonehead on Dec 10, 2023 17:12:50 GMT
I finally saw The Giggle in its entirety. Bit of a mixed bag, I thought. These specials might be seen in retrospect as a very spectacular 'clearing up' session. Flux has been acknowledged, so has the Timeless Child. Only in passing, but it's there. That's a good thing, isn't it? I think it's a good thing. The Fifteenth Doctor really seems to be ushering in a new start.
The acting throughout is great, with David Tennant proving how much I'll miss him. Neil Patrick Harris is great as the Toymaker, as is his Jigsaw-style puppet - although when it comes to singing and dancing, Sasha's Master did it better.. Truly lovely to see Mel, who is 'no more opinionated than usual' so she says. There's also a sense of growing menace throughout the episode. "They shout, they type, they cancel," says the Toymaker at one point. I like that slight dig at modern day humans. ("We play the game again, Time Lord." I wish he'd said that!)
And so to the bi-regeneration. Usually, of course, the regeneration is the big spectacle, where we instantly mourn the death of one Doctor and are cautiously welcoming of a new one. Here, with all the other bangs and flashes, it was just another effect, which then ushered in a quick demise for the Toymaker, and some bonding between Ncuti and David's Doctors. It was odd more than anything, although I liked Number 14's "Feels different this time," line. A little tribute to the father-in-law's final words? And we never did find out why Jodie's clothes regenerated along with the rest of her. I guess RTD must have worried he'd look silly in her costume after all.
On the subject of RTD - "Parking. Is that rude?"
Well, it depends. If you're producing a show that has pubically striven to be as inoffensive as possible, it probably is. Then again, so is getting an actor to put on a cod/comedy German accent as the villain of the piece. Just a few weeks ago we were encouraged to re-evaluate Talons of Weng Chiang (made nearly 50 years ago, kids) because of a white actor playing a Chinese character. Are the parallels so very different? If you're offended by one thing, surely you must be offended by the other, no? A bit hypocritical. As I said last night on here, these double standards do seriously dent my enjoyment. But who cares what I think? We have a flambouyant new Doctor whizzing about the place, a slightly jumbled ending for Doctor 14 - perhaps he'll find a way to meet Rose (the original Rose) in that parallel universe and catch up with himself?
Still don't know what I thought of it all, to be honest, and at the moment I'm not in a massive hurry to rewatch. But one thing's very apparent. It's all very Disney.
Watching unleashed, RTD explains the accent as the toymaker making deliberate choices to affect racially offensive stereotypes. He's basically constructed an in-universe explanation for why he was dressed as a mandarin in the original, when he was clearly Caucasian. They try to emphasise this by having him behave in a racist way to the customer in the shop, but it just doesn't work. It needed a line somewhere with the doctor calling him out on the accent and him responding that he was doing deliberately it to offend people. That's interesting, thanks for that. I would agree and add that one shouldn't have to watch different show to understand the 'motives' of the main character in the episode.
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Post by timleschild on Dec 10, 2023 17:19:13 GMT
I finally saw The Giggle in its entirety. Bit of a mixed bag, I thought. These specials might be seen in retrospect as a very spectacular 'clearing up' session. Flux has been acknowledged, so has the Timeless Child. Only in passing, but it's there. That's a good thing, isn't it? I think it's a good thing. The Fifteenth Doctor really seems to be ushering in a new start.
The acting throughout is great, with David Tennant proving how much I'll miss him. Neil Patrick Harris is great as the Toymaker, as is his Jigsaw-style puppet - although when it comes to singing and dancing, Sasha's Master did it better.. Truly lovely to see Mel, who is 'no more opinionated than usual' so she says. There's also a sense of growing menace throughout the episode. "They shout, they type, they cancel," says the Toymaker at one point. I like that slight dig at modern day humans. ("We play the game again, Time Lord." I wish he'd said that!)
And so to the bi-regeneration. Usually, of course, the regeneration is the big spectacle, where we instantly mourn the death of one Doctor and are cautiously welcoming of a new one. Here, with all the other bangs and flashes, it was just another effect, which then ushered in a quick demise for the Toymaker, and some bonding between Ncuti and David's Doctors. It was odd more than anything, although I liked Number 14's "Feels different this time," line. A little tribute to the father-in-law's final words? And we never did find out why Jodie's clothes regenerated along with the rest of her. I guess RTD must have worried he'd look silly in her costume after all.
On the subject of RTD - "Parking. Is that rude?"
Well, it depends. If you're producing a show that has pubically striven to be as inoffensive as possible, it probably is. Then again, so is getting an actor to put on a cod/comedy German accent as the villain of the piece. Just a few weeks ago we were encouraged to re-evaluate Talons of Weng Chiang (made nearly 50 years ago, kids) because of a white actor playing a Chinese character. Are the parallels so very different? If you're offended by one thing, surely you must be offended by the other, no? A bit hypocritical. As I said last night on here, these double standards do seriously dent my enjoyment. But who cares what I think? We have a flambouyant new Doctor whizzing about the place, a slightly jumbled ending for Doctor 14 - perhaps he'll find a way to meet Rose (the original Rose) in that parallel universe and catch up with himself?
Still don't know what I thought of it all, to be honest, and at the moment I'm not in a massive hurry to rewatch. But one thing's very apparent. It's all very Disney.
Watching unleashed, RTD explains the accent as the toymaker making deliberate choices to affect racially offensive stereotypes. He's basically constructed an in-universe explanation for why he was dressed as a mandarin in the original, when he was clearly Caucasian. They try to emphasise this by having him behave in a racist way to the customer in the shop, but it just doesn't work. It needed a line somewhere with the doctor calling him out on the accent and him responding that he was doing deliberately it to offend people. Yeah sometimes RTD needs to realise that the things he explains in commentary & behind the scenes stuff doesn't always translate on screen.
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Post by timleschild on Dec 10, 2023 18:46:06 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2023 18:56:08 GMT
Sorry Yaz! I still love you! Just don't have Mel tell the others in group that The Doctor lives in Chiswick now!
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Post by timleschild on Dec 10, 2023 19:10:24 GMT
Complete disrespect from RTD now he's got his toys back.
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Dec 10, 2023 19:18:12 GMT
I don't see it as disrespectful - I think the contexts between why 13 and 14 made those decisions on settling are different. Plus, out of universe, leaving Yaz was Chibb's call, not RTD's. Can't chalk this one on him.
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Post by charlesuirdhein on Dec 10, 2023 19:20:16 GMT
Soooo...do we finally have a possible reason for the Valeyard's existence? At some time in the future (past/whatever/Jigsaw/Time War/Insert applicable era) someone attempted a forced bigeneration on the Doctor and it went wrong?
Hmmm?
Makes as much sense as previous attempts at figuring out how he came to be.
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Post by bonehead on Dec 10, 2023 19:37:36 GMT
If I missed this being shared earlier, apologies. The Giggle was watched by 4.62 million viewers on overnights.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2023 19:38:32 GMT
I don't see it as disrespectful - I think the contexts between why 13 and 14 made those decisions on settling are different. Plus, out of universe, leaving Yaz was Chibb's call, not RTD's. Can't chalk this one on him. Well, exactly. And this Doctor was the one who finally got to let it all go. Everything from the past...excised with a hug and kiss, from themselves. That whole speech from Ncuti ended the angst that even Jodie had. We saw her clam up and Yaz had to call her out on not letting anyone in, always being distant even if pretending otherwise. Knowing that he can be at home with family for the first time since Gallifrey AND be out there in another incarnation at the same time, living up to the promise? Binary victorious, I'd say.
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Post by timleschild on Dec 10, 2023 19:48:18 GMT
Soooo...do we finally have a possible reason for the Valeyard's existence? At some time in the future (past/whatever/Jigsaw/Time War/Insert applicable era) someone attempted a forced bigeneration on the Doctor and it went wrong? Hmmm? Makes as much sense as previous attempts at figuring out how he came to be. & an explanation for The Watcher. The 5th Doctor bi-generated but was thrown back in time to become the Watcher.
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Post by christmastrenzalore on Dec 10, 2023 20:14:52 GMT
Soooo...do we finally have a possible reason for the Valeyard's existence? At some time in the future (past/whatever/Jigsaw/Time War/Insert applicable era) someone attempted a forced bigeneration on the Doctor and it went wrong? Hmmm? Makes as much sense as previous attempts at figuring out how he came to be. & an explanation for The Watcher. The 5th Doctor bi-generated but was thrown back in time to become the Watcher. I always saw the Watcher as something more akin to K'anpo's future incarnation. An echo of what's to come.
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Post by timleschild on Dec 10, 2023 20:20:32 GMT
& an explanation for The Watcher. The 5th Doctor bi-generated but was thrown back in time to become the Watcher. I always saw the Watcher as something more akin to K'anpo's future incarnation. An echo of what's to come. K'anpo & Cho-Je more bi-generations?
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Post by timleschild on Dec 10, 2023 20:22:18 GMT
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Post by christmastrenzalore on Dec 10, 2023 20:36:33 GMT
I always saw the Watcher as something more akin to K'anpo's future incarnation. An echo of what's to come. K'anpo & Cho-Je more bi-generations? Maybe. And given it was featured in the first episode that coined Regeneration as a Timelord bodily function, it set up pretty early that it can manifest in all different sorts of ways.
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Post by mark687 on Dec 10, 2023 20:42:36 GMT
On rewatch, some of it REALLY rams home harder. Tennant's pain as he knows the Toymaker is right that he let down his companions with every "Oh, well, THAT'S ALRIGHT THEN" really stabs. On the other hand: Though Displaced in Time Amy and Rory lived a full Life. Though the Doctor doesn't know it Clara and Me swan off though Time and Space Also he doesn't know that Bill's Soul is half of a Space fairing entity in a Long term Relationship with itself The Flux, Time was bored with the Doctor doing to much good so had to make sure half the universe goes down the Preverbal Its all in the perspective the Individual Audience Member have viewed the show in Regards mark687
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Post by mark687 on Dec 10, 2023 20:46:27 GMT
So in Tales of the TARDIS. 7 mentions different timelines, suggesting he's from one where he didn't regenerate, just kept aging. In the commentary for the Giggle (so not canon yet, but there for him to use if he ever feels like it) RTD says that he views the bi-generation and TARDIS splitting as having rippled back through the doctors timeline, presumably as part of the toymakers "turning your history into a jigsaw puzzle". He specifically quoted the examples of Pertwee appearing on the floor of the UNIT lab after Tom had left, and leaving in his own copy of the TARDIS, and of Davison waking up in a TARDIS on Androzani after Colin had flown off. He went on to explain that means an older McCoy can now turn up in any episode without it needing a reason for him looking older. There are so many things left unexplained. Do they age now at human rate, can they still regenerate (which could even make the Shalka ninth doctor canon!!). All questions we may never know the answer to. Hang on, I've just realised that means that the living Tennants would now be: One that appeared in London after being shot by a dalek A human one that lives in another universe One that appeared in his TARDIS in orbit over England after being poisoned by radiation One living with the noble family RTD could do a 4 Tennants special to celebrate the new series 20th anniversary in 2025 Now now you'll give someone Nightmares. Regards mark687
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Post by mark687 on Dec 10, 2023 21:12:20 GMT
Regards
mark687
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2023 21:16:42 GMT
On rewatch, some of it REALLY rams home harder. Tennant's pain as he knows the Toymaker is right that he let down his companions with every "Oh, well, THAT'S ALRIGHT THEN" really stabs. On the other hand: Though Displaced in Time Amy and Rory lived a full Life. Though the Doctor doesn't know it Clara and Me swan off though Time and Space Also he doesn't know that Bill's Soul is half of a Space fairing entity in a Long term Relationship with itself The Flux, Time was bored with the Doctor doing to much good so had to make sure half the universe goes down the Preverbal Its all in the perspective the Individual Audience have viewed the show in Regards mark687 Sorry Mark but You've done what The Doctor did and the Toymaker calls him on - excusing some horrible fates! Rory and Clara could never see their families again, The Doctor was told by lovely Brian to just make sure they got home safely and he didn't. Clara is a heartbeat from death and at the mercy of fate or The Timelords. Bill exists in consciousness only, knowing her body has been hacked to bits. Remember how Tennant reacted when Rassilon suggested that becoming beings of consciousness was a good thing for The Timelords? So clearly he doesn't view it as "winning" - it caused him to use The Moment!. "BUT THAT'S ALRIGHT THEN" was as brilliant and cutting as when Davros showed how The Doctor says he hates guns...and yet weaponises his friends. To both Toymaker and Davros, The Doctor has no answer, because he knows they're right. And that's part of his pain he gets to excise at the end too.
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