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Post by Deleted on Dec 27, 2023 11:31:30 GMT
I'd certainly struggle to see describe either of their characters at this stage. Ncuti did a lot of running around and posing, but I'm not sure I understand who his Doctor is yet. If I had to pin it down, I'd say he most resembles 13, with quite a lot of mumbled exposition about how unusual/dangerous the situation is. And Ruby felt very bland and generic; not a patch on Rose (new Rose). Yasmin was amazing, Millie is just kind of there. Very competent acting, but nothing to show for it yet. Obviously politely agree to disagree, respect different opinions etc etc, but I just can't see how 15 is vague or unclear as a character. Even with the caveat of first eps can only do so much, I've got a good sense of who this Doctor is and how he views the world.
As for Ruby, I concede there is less there but I like what I've seen so far and I want to see where this TARDIS team go next, so I'm satisfied.
Maybe I need to watch it again. I didn't even think Davina's Davina was very good.
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Post by anothermanicmondas on Dec 27, 2023 11:49:10 GMT
I stand by my position that every Doctor deserves 2 stories to establish themselves the first story is often for "finding their feet" and can have the Doctor sleeping through the story, trying to murder cavemen, unable to distinguish between their companion and the villainess, trying to strangle their companion, kissing, or otherwise behaving in a manner not typical for them.
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Post by timleschild on Dec 27, 2023 12:13:05 GMT
Obviously politely agree to disagree, respect different opinions etc etc, but I just can't see how 15 is vague or unclear as a character. Even with the caveat of first eps can only do so much, I've got a good sense of who this Doctor is and how he views the world.
As for Ruby, I concede there is less there but I like what I've seen so far and I want to see where this TARDIS team go next, so I'm satisfied.
Maybe I need to watch it again. I didn't even think Davina's Davina was very good. I might also rewatch. Closer to the new season. I have no urge to watch it again soon.
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Post by number13 on Dec 27, 2023 12:19:39 GMT
I stand by my position that every Doctor deserves 2 stories to establish themselves the first story is often for "finding their feet" and can have the Doctor sleeping through the story, trying to murder cavemen, unable to distinguish between their companion and the villainess, trying to strangle their companion, kissing, or otherwise behaving in a manner not typical for them. Agree, in 'the old days' they sometimes filmed a new Doctor's opening story several stories into his first run, so that he could get into character before performing the big 'first episode'.
No idea if that happened here or not and given the 'oh let's just GO FOR IT it's CHRISTMAS let's have a PARTY and put on a SHOW!!!' vibe that this episode had all over it, I don't think we could tell anyway. I'm not making any comments about the Doctor until I see him doing something a bit more traditional than his first solo appearance allowed!
Then I think we might see the finished 15 more clearly, with no tinsel, no fake snow, no clubbing and most definitely absolutely NO goblins.
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Post by sherlock on Dec 27, 2023 12:21:14 GMT
I stand by my position that every Doctor deserves 2 stories to establish themselves the first story is often for "finding their feet" and can have the Doctor sleeping through the story, trying to murder cavemen, unable to distinguish between their companion and the villainess, trying to strangle their companion, kissing, or otherwise behaving in a manner not typical for them. Agree, in 'the old days' they sometimes filmed a new Doctor's opening story several stories into his first run, so that he could get into character before performing the big 'first episode'.
No idea if that happened here or not and given the 'oh let's just GO FOR IT it's CHRISTMAS let's have a PARTY and put on a SHOW!!!' vibe that this episode had all over it, I don't think we could tell anyway. I'm not making any comments about the Doctor until I see him doing something a bit more traditional than his first solo appearance allowed!
Then I think we might see the finished 15 more clearly, with no tinsel, no fake snow, no clubbing and most definitely absolutely NO goblins.
We know the snowman decoration and policeman scene was filmed as recently as October at beginning of Series 15/Season 2 block, so that did out of order debut did sort of happen here.
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Post by number13 on Dec 27, 2023 12:24:00 GMT
Agree, in 'the old days' they sometimes filmed a new Doctor's opening story several stories into his first run, so that he could get into character before performing the big 'first episode'.
No idea if that happened here or not and given the 'oh let's just GO FOR IT it's CHRISTMAS let's have a PARTY and put on a SHOW!!!' vibe that this episode had all over it, I don't think we could tell anyway. I'm not making any comments about the Doctor until I see him doing something a bit more traditional than his first solo appearance allowed!
Then I think we might see the finished 15 more clearly, with no tinsel, no fake snow, no clubbing and most definitely absolutely NO goblins.
We know the snowman decoration and policeman scene was filmed as recently as October at beginning of Series 15/Season 2 block, so that did out of order debut did sort of happen here. Thanks!
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Post by bonehead on Dec 27, 2023 12:25:33 GMT
I'm not sure what was specifically Disney to anyone - it was a pastiche of Labyrinth with a bit of Back To The Future (and Who did Time Travel shenanigans first, there!) but Disney ain't demand ing Davina McCall gets a feature role, so no-one outside the UK gets the joke. This was just a silly RTD ep with cash. For better or worse. I honestly don't see anything in it that doesn't seem on brand for HIM, not Disney. Even singing Goblins? Warners adaptation of The Hobbit, not Disney. I don't know what was specifically Disney about The Church on Ruby Road either but it certainly was specifically RTD! The difference between the RTD 'Christmas specials' and Chris Chibnall's [New Years Day] 'specials' is night and day. I'm not knocking Chibnall's holiday episodes, as three out of four of them featured Daleks and tried to be different, but RTD just does an OTT Christmas romp like nobody else. The Church on Ruby Road looked a bit more polished than his last ones but the style is undoubtedly the same.
Now that everyone is aware of the Disney cash injection anything perceived as being bad or sub par in Doctor Who is probably going to get blamed on Disney. Personally, I liked the way the latest episodes have looked, and it's better for Doctor Who to have the cash and look the part than not have it and probably end up getting cancelled as it couldn't compete with modern TV shows!
I thought something that most agreed on was that Jodie's stories - whatever people thought of them - *looked* great. I would happily 'muddle along' with that level of visuals if it meant we didn't get the thinly written, superficially entertaining, unengaging nonsense we're getting currently (and for the foreseeable, depressingly). I'm one of those who feel this version of Doctor Who is very Disney - saccharin characters, playground concepts masquerading as 'fantasy' - but then I'm (clearly) not a fan of modern day Disney films and, I suppose, very 'Hollywood' is how I would better describe the current crop. For the first time ever, Doctor Who is style over substance, just episodes full of a few million quids worth of CGI and music that bombards you with 'exciting!!'. I mean, this show has produced such innovative gems over the decades. Does this current stuff *really* compare?
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Post by number13 on Dec 27, 2023 12:38:49 GMT
I don't know what was specifically Disney about The Church on Ruby Road either but it certainly was specifically RTD! The difference between the RTD 'Christmas specials' and Chris Chibnall's [New Years Day] 'specials' is night and day. I'm not knocking Chibnall's holiday episodes, as three out of four of them featured Daleks and tried to be different, but RTD just does an OTT Christmas romp like nobody else. The Church on Ruby Road looked a bit more polished than his last ones but the style is undoubtedly the same.
Now that everyone is aware of the Disney cash injection anything perceived as being bad or sub par in Doctor Who is probably going to get blamed on Disney. Personally, I liked the way the latest episodes have looked, and it's better for Doctor Who to have the cash and look the part than not have it and probably end up getting cancelled as it couldn't compete with modern TV shows!
I thought something that most agreed on was that Jodie's stories - whatever people thought of them - *looked* great. I would happily 'muddle along' with that level of visuals if it meant we didn't get the thinly written, superficially entertaining, unengaging nonsense we're getting currently (and for the foreseeable, depressingly). I'm one of those who feel this version of Doctor Who is very Disney - saccharin characters, playground concepts masquerading as 'fantasy' - but then I'm (clearly) not a fan of modern day Disney films and, I suppose, very 'Hollywood' is how I would better describe the current crop. For the first time ever, Doctor Who is style over substance, just episodes full of a few million quids worth of CGI and music that bombards you with 'exciting!!'. I mean, this show has produced such innovative gems over the decades. Does this current stuff *really* compare? For me there's a very sharp dividing line between the three specials with 14 and the Christmas extravagoblinganza that was 15's full debut.
I loved the three specials; where there were unusual elements they were traditional-unusual. The Meep has a fine pedigree and the Toymaker is almost as old as the show and the world around him was just as bizarre (as much as budget would allow) in 1966 as it was here.
Let's just say I was less keen on what we got for Christmas, but it was for Christmas so I waved a mince pie at it in a congenial manner and hoped for better things to come. If they continue to serve up the spirit of goblins et. al. in the regular episodes, well then I will have things to say! But I don't expect that really.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 27, 2023 12:51:16 GMT
Agree, in 'the old days' they sometimes filmed a new Doctor's opening story several stories into his first run, so that he could get into character before performing the big 'first episode'.
No idea if that happened here or not and given the 'oh let's just GO FOR IT it's CHRISTMAS let's have a PARTY and put on a SHOW!!!' vibe that this episode had all over it, I don't think we could tell anyway. I'm not making any comments about the Doctor until I see him doing something a bit more traditional than his first solo appearance allowed!
Then I think we might see the finished 15 more clearly, with no tinsel, no fake snow, no clubbing and most definitely absolutely NO goblins.
We know the snowman decoration and policeman scene was filmed as recently as October at beginning of Series 15/Season 2 block, so that did out of order debut did sort of happen here. I get the feeling that was just some reshoots - that whole policeman scene felt out of place. If it was added afterwards to give us an extra couple of minutes runtime, or replace a different scene that wasn't working, that would make sense. I can't see any way they'd film all of season 1 without having done the majority of the episode where the two main characters meet.
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Post by sherlock on Dec 27, 2023 12:55:59 GMT
We know the snowman decoration and policeman scene was filmed as recently as October at beginning of Series 15/Season 2 block, so that did out of order debut did sort of happen here. I get the feeling that was just some reshoots - that whole policeman scene felt out of place. If it was added afterwards to give us an extra couple of minutes runtime, or replace a different scene that wasn't working, that would make sense. I can't see any way they'd film all of season 1 without having done the majority of the episode where the two main characters meet. I saw somewhere that on the commentary RTD clarified it was a late addition from a Disney note. Basically wanting more of the Doctor earlier in the story. So your instincts were right there.
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Post by shallacatop on Dec 27, 2023 13:34:01 GMT
Good note it was too, I thought the best scenes in the episode were that and the preceding nightclub sequences. It’s those that really sell Ncuti’s Doctor; he’s ace in the rest, but everything else following it the Doctor’s actions are driven by the plot. The episode without would be worse off; a long time before we get Ncuti and not a terrible amount to go on what his Doctor is like.
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Post by mark687 on Dec 27, 2023 15:02:00 GMT
Nucuti's Doctor Moments for me(so far) Meeting Ruby in the club Meeting the Cop The whole Language of Ropes bit Confronting Cherry after time's been altered Rescuing Baby Ruby That's The Doctor! Regards mark687
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Post by Deleted on Dec 27, 2023 16:42:14 GMT
I get the feeling that was just some reshoots - that whole policeman scene felt out of place. If it was added afterwards to give us an extra couple of minutes runtime, or replace a different scene that wasn't working, that would make sense. I can't see any way they'd film all of season 1 without having done the majority of the episode where the two main characters meet. I saw somewhere that on the commentary RTD clarified it was a late addition from a Disney note. Basically wanting more of the Doctor earlier in the story. So your instincts were right there. Problem is, it feels like what it is, a late addition. It might be a good scene, possibly the closest we get for really who this Doctor is, but I think RTD's initial instinct was probably right, keep Ruby as the viewpoint character longer, the way Rose was in, well, Rose. This is perhaps the first evidence I've actually seen of Disney changing the show in a way I haven't enjoyed. Hope it's a one-off.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 27, 2023 16:48:17 GMT
Nucuti's Doctor Moments for me(so far) Meeting Ruby in the club Meeting the Cop The whole Language of Ropes bit Confronting Cherry after time's been altered Rescuing Baby Ruby That's The Doctor! Regards mark687 Those are definitely his stand out moments, but they don't give me a feel for who 15 is. The cop was very 8, the ropes were very 13, the altered Cherry was possibly the best bit in terms of giving an insight into 15 but I can't fuse it with the other sections into a coherent character. I suppose it's traditional to start a new Doctor like this, I just thought we'd get an immediately distinctive 15, the way we got an immediately distinctive 9. With 4 months to go until the next episode, I feel it's a riskier tactic than if the next episode had been next week.
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Post by mark687 on Dec 27, 2023 17:00:29 GMT
Nucuti's Doctor Moments for me(so far) Meeting Ruby in the club Meeting the Cop The whole Language of Ropes bit Confronting Cherry after time's been altered Rescuing Baby Ruby That's The Doctor! Regards mark687 Those are definitely his stand out moments, but they don't give me a feel for who 15 is. The cop was very 8, the ropes were very 13, the altered Cherry was possibly the best bit in terms of giving an insight into 15 but I can't fuse it with the other sections into a coherent character. I suppose it's traditional to start a new Doctor like this, I just thought we'd get an immediately distinctive 15, the way we got an immediately distinctive 9. With 4 months to go until the next episode, I feel it's a riskier tactic than if the next episode had been next week. Oh another interesting pick up if we're talking comparing, for me so far 15s a slightly more relaxed 9 or a slightly more intense 8. Regards mark687
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Dec 27, 2023 17:04:18 GMT
I saw somewhere that on the commentary RTD clarified it was a late addition from a Disney note. Basically wanting more of the Doctor earlier in the story. So your instincts were right there. Problem is, it feels like what it is, a late addition. It might be a good scene, possibly the closest we get for really who this Doctor is, but I think RTD's initial instinct was probably right, keep Ruby as the viewpoint character longer, the way Rose was in, well, Rose. This is perhaps the first evidence I've actually seen of Disney changing the show in a way I haven't enjoyed. Hope it's a one-off. Again, a respectful disagree. I think the scene is a good addition and give Ncuti a sweet little moment that helps define his Doctor as being a lot more open and pastoral than his three predecessors tended to be (that's neither good nor bad, just a difference). Guess we, including mark, just have different ideas on what a Doctor moment looks like.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 27, 2023 17:38:29 GMT
Problem is, it feels like what it is, a late addition. It might be a good scene, possibly the closest we get for really who this Doctor is, but I think RTD's initial instinct was probably right, keep Ruby as the viewpoint character longer, the way Rose was in, well, Rose. This is perhaps the first evidence I've actually seen of Disney changing the show in a way I haven't enjoyed. Hope it's a one-off. Again, a respectful disagree. I think the scene is a good addition and give Ncuti a sweet little moment that helps define his Doctor as being a lot more open and pastoral than his three predecessors tended to be (that's neither good nor bad, just a difference). Guess we, including mark, just have different ideas on what a Doctor moment looks like.
Oh indeed. And I'm not saying it's a bad Doctor moment, my main problem with it is that it breaks the flow of the story and weakens the focus on Ruby, to what I feel is the story's detriment. Obviously other people's mileage will vary, and nobody is right or wrong. I just hope for the success of the show that I'm in the minority.
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Post by timleschild on Dec 27, 2023 18:10:59 GMT
Imagine if Disney were involved during The Christmas Invasion? Why is Doctor Who in bed?
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Dec 27, 2023 19:02:36 GMT
Imagine if Disney were involved during The Christmas Invasion? Why is Doctor Who in bed? You don't think the BBC also give notes? Pretty sure RTD confirms they did in Writer's Tale.
'Can we do something faster/add an extra scene with the star' is the most vanilla note any exec can give.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 27, 2023 19:22:30 GMT
Imagine if Disney were involved during The Christmas Invasion? Why is Doctor Who in bed? You don't think the BBC also give notes? Pretty sure RTD confirms they did in Writer's Tale.
'Can we do something faster/add an extra scene with the star' is the most vanilla note any exec can give.
As did the CBC for Series 1. I've got a few issues with the writing in the ep. Ruby seems WAY too nonplussed over the threat when on the conveyer belt. There needed to be more sense of an invite to travel. Those would be my notes. But "a bit more Doctor Who in Doctor Who" seems fine. I can see it either way - that you want The Doctor in it earlier OR you want Ruby to see this mysterious character who we only meet when the action starts. Though that option is rendered a bit less meaningful as a concept by Ncuti being in the last act of The Giggle. It's not a direct comparison with Eccleston's ep in that regard - we hadn't seen him in action 3 weeks earlier. So all in all..it's a good scene and I'd probably have done what Russell did with it. If it was Ncuti's total debut, maybe not.
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