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Brexit
Oct 17, 2016 18:39:50 GMT
Post by Deleted on Oct 17, 2016 18:39:50 GMT
Eh, I think you overestimate how much net change there has been in opinion. Some people who vaguely supported leave may have changed their mind once they've seen the consequences (but equally people who were vaguely supportive of remain will tell you that democracy matters more) but the voters whose views were more nationalistic definitely won't have changed. You see, that's what I don't get. Why do people feel proud to be British in a UK they want to return to being racist? With respect, that's a highly uneducated overview of the scenario. Also, with your logic, why did so many Asian immigrants vote leave?
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Post by dalekbuster523finish on Oct 17, 2016 19:25:38 GMT
I don't know, I think if you asked any leave voter now if they regret their vote they would say yes - especially with the drop of the pound, rising prices, lies by Boris Johnson and Nigel Farage and the fact that many of them came on TV/radio afterwards and said 'I voted to leave but I thought the vote was just hypothetical'! I think the vote would be much the same as it was, a couple of points either way, we are a very divided nation currently. there are to many people forgotten by politics currently, many of those in charge have very Victorian values and think it's the poors fault, that they are poor! When the real truth is its not, sure there are exceptions but when even education these days is a barrier to prosperity somethings wrong. until we realise that that all skills are valuable and get rid of the blood sucking middle men, opportunist law vigulanties & tyrancal money barons, the divides will only deepen. brexit was a rally cry, a misguided one but for good or ill, many of the leaves would still be leave! run it again & yes a narrow margin stay might win now, but in years time when Italy is on the brink, Germany has a new direction, France's right wing gets a stronger hold & the pound has fallen below the euro so immigration has dropped they may feel they made the right choice. as to the lies, both sides told lies because who wants to hear the truth,which is that which ever way we voted it was a between the devil & the deep blue sea choice. The remain politicians told no lies. I mean, come on: Nigel Farage literally had 'We'll give money to the NHS - Vote Leave' on a bus. How is that fair?
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Brexit
Oct 17, 2016 19:40:50 GMT
Post by Deleted on Oct 17, 2016 19:40:50 GMT
I think the vote would be much the same as it was, a couple of points either way, we are a very divided nation currently. there are to many people forgotten by politics currently, many of those in charge have very Victorian values and think it's the poors fault, that they are poor! When the real truth is its not, sure there are exceptions but when even education these days is a barrier to prosperity somethings wrong. until we realise that that all skills are valuable and get rid of the blood sucking middle men, opportunist law vigulanties & tyrancal money barons, the divides will only deepen. brexit was a rally cry, a misguided one but for good or ill, many of the leaves would still be leave! run it again & yes a narrow margin stay might win now, but in years time when Italy is on the brink, Germany has a new direction, France's right wing gets a stronger hold & the pound has fallen below the euro so immigration has dropped they may feel they made the right choice. as to the lies, both sides told lies because who wants to hear the truth,which is that which ever way we voted it was a between the devil & the deep blue sea choice. The remain politicians told no lies. I mean, come on: Nigel Farage literally had 'We'll give money to the NHS - Vote Leave' on a bus. How is that fair? Trouble with the younger generations these days. Too afraid of the unknown and tell to many tall talls. Sad to be part of them.
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Brexit
Oct 17, 2016 22:50:16 GMT
Post by muckypup on Oct 17, 2016 22:50:16 GMT
I think the vote would be much the same as it was, a couple of points either way, we are a very divided nation currently. there are to many people forgotten by politics currently, many of those in charge have very Victorian values and think it's the poors fault, that they are poor! When the real truth is its not, sure there are exceptions but when even education these days is a barrier to prosperity somethings wrong. until we realise that that all skills are valuable and get rid of the blood sucking middle men, opportunist law vigulanties & tyrancal money barons, the divides will only deepen. brexit was a rally cry, a misguided one but for good or ill, many of the leaves would still be leave! run it again & yes a narrow margin stay might win now, but in years time when Italy is on the brink, Germany has a new direction, France's right wing gets a stronger hold & the pound has fallen below the euro so immigration has dropped they may feel they made the right choice. as to the lies, both sides told lies because who wants to hear the truth,which is that which ever way we voted it was a between the devil & the deep blue sea choice. The remain politicians told no lies. I mean, come on: Nigel Farage literally had 'We'll give money to the NHS - Vote Leave' on a bus. How is that fair? Oh buddy, they told many many lies. From punishment budgets to trade barriers from outside & inside the EU. they all lie, tell half truths & evade, politics is full of media spin & (excuse the language) bullshit! the pound falling was always going to happen, but the stock market has done ok which is the real indicator of confidence. times will be turbulent for a good while yet, and yes it's not great. but things will be ok, for us day to day. The hypocracy of this government is its happy for councils, health authorities & goverment lose 100's of thousands, their jobs on their policies but car makers, banks & insurance companies threaten to shead 30ish thousand jobs that's surposed to make us panic! dont get me wrong it's not good, but it's big corps bullying and we need to stand up to bullies. dont let them rule with fear, the more they make you worry about everything else the less attention we pay to the sneeky conniving schemes they all cook up. Look at the little pictures and ignore all the bluff & blunder. and I don't mean to be pedantic but the bus has nothing to do with farage, he was just an indie campaigner & an annoyance. Boris & co. We're the bus but yes it was a monumentally stupid statement, much like osbournes punishment budget was a stupid move, & even Cameron promising the referendum to cling to power was a ludicrous thing to do. they are all so desperate to hold on to their jobs, stab each other in the backs and power crazed, they should never be the ones pulling the countries strings. even now we have a prime minster who is saying what we want to hear but no promises on when & how or even if it's going to happen. Policies come and go like the wind, we are a ship out of control & it's scary i think leaving the eu is a bit stupid, but we did need th Eu to reform itself and that was not going to happen under the current leadership. The whole thing is a mess. But let them worry about it they get paid to do it. We have more important stuff to worry about, like will class be any good, are we looking forward to the xmas special and what would we do if the daleks invade......
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Post by whiskeybrewer on Oct 18, 2016 11:41:17 GMT
There were lies and backbiting on both sides. I couldnt trust a thing anyone said. So i just went off of what i thought was right. The majority voted the other way and i respected the decision.
Just a shame most of my fellow remainers, started acting like babies because they didnt get what they wanted
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Post by jasonward on Oct 18, 2016 14:31:06 GMT
Just a shame most of my fellow remainers, started acting like babies because they didnt get what they wanted I think a lot of people acted badly, some still are, the general levels of fear and hatred rose a lot post vote, and remains high. I fear the US is in for the same and probably far worse (if for no other reason it's a much larger country, already more polarized than the UK) come the day after the presidential vote. Personally I feel the pro-exit people were the worst (in the lead up to the vote) but then I expect I'm biased so feel unable to say that with any confidence, but what I can say, no one came out well from it, they all lied, and the more time goes by the more it seems they didn't always have the excuse that they were lieing for a cause they believed it, it seems Boris chose his side because he thought it would further his career, Jeremy Corbyn it would appear campaigned on the side he didn't believe in for reason I don't understand, Cameron choose to create the vote and campaign not for the country but solve the problems of his party and leadership. Whose come out well of this? Even Theresa May by far the biggest winner so far to emerge from Brexit is drinking from a poison chalice, and if were not for the simultaneous implosions of the Labour Party and UKIP would be facing a far harder time than she already is, even now I read there are votes and things she is not bringing forward because she knows she will likely loose if she does.
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Post by TinDogPodcast on Oct 18, 2016 16:54:49 GMT
Don't blame me...
I voted remain...
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Brexit
Oct 18, 2016 17:45:18 GMT
Post by dalekbuster523finish on Oct 18, 2016 17:45:18 GMT
Just a shame most of my fellow remainers, started acting like babies because they didnt get what they wanted Personally I feel the pro-exit people were the worst (in the lead up to the vote) How did you get to that conclusion? None of us actually murdered someone for a start!
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Brexit
Oct 22, 2016 19:50:51 GMT
Post by anothermanicmondas on Oct 22, 2016 19:50:51 GMT
Personally I feel the pro-exit people were the worst (in the lead up to the vote) How did you get to that conclusion? None of us actually murdered someone for a start! the murder has no proven link to the referendum and was condemned by both sides (some conspiracy theorists have suggested that the murder was done to cause a sympathy backlash against the brexit campaign - but then conspiracy throrists will suggest anything...) After the referendum, the most obvious bad reactions come from the politicians Nigel Farage was smart enough to know when to quit leaving the other UKIPers to have punch-ups while trying to figure out what to do now Labour have been in a bad way since Thatcher broke the power of the unions and now they seem to be in a civil war between extremists and power-hungry cynics. and the Tories had their share of backstabbing But the worst people since the referendum are the racist morons. I'm talking about people too stupid to grasp that the vote was about Europe and have since been harrassing Asian and African immigrants claiming the results mean they have to leave the country. This is of course utter nonsense and directly against what the Leave campaign was saying in the lead-up to the referendum. During the campaign, ALL the spokesmen for Leave (including Nigel Farage) spoke of the benefits of immigration. They were not talking about ending immigration or sending anyone back (other than convicted criminals) They were talking about placing some controls and limitations on immigration from Europe. A significant number of Leave supporters wanted to use the limitations on immigration to remove the restrictions that had been placed on immigration from outside the EU so we could have more immigrants from Commonwealth countries.
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Brexit
Oct 22, 2016 21:32:56 GMT
Post by dalekbuster523finish on Oct 22, 2016 21:32:56 GMT
How did you get to that conclusion? None of us actually murdered someone for a start! the murder has no proven link to the referendum and was condemned by both sides (some conspiracy theorists have suggested that the murder was done to cause a sympathy backlash against the brexit campaign - but then conspiracy throrists will suggest anything...) The murder was precisely because Jo Cox wanted to remain in the EU. That's the entire reason why 'Death to traitors' (or 'Thomas Mair') did it. It's blatantly obvious and you can see it on every press article about the murder. None of us remainers went to those extremes. You didn't hear ANY reports of leavers being murdered. You certainly don't hear of any remainers being racist.
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Brexit
Oct 23, 2016 1:13:43 GMT
Post by jasonward on Oct 23, 2016 1:13:43 GMT
the murder has no proven link to the referendum and was condemned by both sides (some conspiracy theorists have suggested that the murder was done to cause a sympathy backlash against the brexit campaign - but then conspiracy throrists will suggest anything...) The murder was precisely because Jo Cox wanted to remain in the EU. That's the entire reason why 'Death to traitors' (or 'Thomas Mair') did it. It's blatantly obvious and you can see it on every press article about the murder. None of us remainers went to those extremes. You didn't hear ANY reports of leavers being murdered. You certainly don't hear of any remainers being racist. Is Thomas Mair on record as having said he murdered Jo Cox because she wanted to remain in the EU? Because if he is not, then saying that that is why he did it is nothing but speculation, and it would remain speculation regardless of how many press articles said so.
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Brexit
Oct 23, 2016 10:52:36 GMT
Post by anothermanicmondas on Oct 23, 2016 10:52:36 GMT
I will add 1) Thomas Mair did not plead guilty and has yet to be placed on trial and thus is still innocent until proven guilty 2) he has a history of mental illness and so his actions should not be equated with the leave campaign in general (and similarly we should not accuse all mentally ill people of being murderers).
also, I believe a smart racist would have voted remain because the remain side was about focussing immigration on white Europeans while cutting down on the number of African and Asian imigrants. Whether any racist is smart enough to have done so is another question (and of course some racists are also xenophobes opposed to white Europeans as well..)
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Brexit
Oct 23, 2016 14:34:46 GMT
Post by dalekbuster523finish on Oct 23, 2016 14:34:46 GMT
The murder was precisely because Jo Cox wanted to remain in the EU. That's the entire reason why 'Death to traitors' (or 'Thomas Mair') did it. It's blatantly obvious and you can see it on every press article about the murder. None of us remainers went to those extremes. You didn't hear ANY reports of leavers being murdered. You certainly don't hear of any remainers being racist. Is Thomas Mair on record as having said he murdered Jo Cox because she wanted to remain in the EU? Because if he is not, then saying that that is why he did it is nothing but speculation, and it would remain speculation regardless of how many press articles said so. What other reason is there? It's too coincidental.
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Brexit
Oct 23, 2016 14:39:39 GMT
Post by dalekbuster523finish on Oct 23, 2016 14:39:39 GMT
I will add 1) Thomas Mair did not plead guilty and has yet to be placed on trial and thus is still innocent until proven guilty 2) he has a history of mental illness and so his actions should not be equated with the leave campaign in general (and similarly we should not accuse all mentally ill people of being murderers). also, I believe a smart racist would have voted remain because the remain side was about focussing immigration on white Europeans while cutting down on the number of African and Asian imigrants. Whether any racist is smart enough to have done so is another question (and of course some racists are also xenophobes opposed to white Europeans as well..) 1. It is a forgone conclusion that he did it though. He gave his name as 'Death to traitors' - that pretty much confirms he did it. 2. Mental illness is not an excuse for taking an innocent life though. If his mental health got that bad that he felt like killing Jo Cox then he should have told someone and sought more help. You can't justify any murder unless it is as an act of self defence.
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Brexit
Oct 23, 2016 19:38:20 GMT
Post by jasonward on Oct 23, 2016 19:38:20 GMT
Is Thomas Mair on record as having said he murdered Jo Cox because she wanted to remain in the EU? Because if he is not, then saying that that is why he did it is nothing but speculation, and it would remain speculation regardless of how many press articles said so. What other reason is there? It's too coincidental. You expect there to be sound logical reasoning behind why someone would murder someone else? For all we know, he thought she was lizard here to take over the world. But regardless of why he did it, if he doesn't say why, anything anyone else says or writes is speculation.
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Brexit
Oct 23, 2016 19:50:50 GMT
Post by jasonward on Oct 23, 2016 19:50:50 GMT
1. It is a forgone conclusion that he did it though. He gave his name as 'Death to traitors' - that pretty much confirms he did it. 2. Mental illness is not an excuse for taking an innocent life though. If his mental health got that bad that he felt like killing Jo Cox then he should have told someone and sought more help. You can't justify any murder unless it is as an act of self defence. OK, it's not a forgone conclusion. Firstly calling yourself "Death to traitors" does not automatically make you a murderer, try it for yourself, next time someone asks your name reply "Death to traitors" and see if you suddenly turn into a murderer, or if I as predict you remain exactly the same person you were before you called yourself that. Secondly, if, as it may yet be established, Thomas Mair, is suffering from mental illness he may be found not guilty, sure he's likely to be subsequently held in secure hospital like Broadmore, but he will still in the eyes of the law be "not guilty".
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Brexit
Oct 23, 2016 22:37:04 GMT
Post by dalekbuster523finish on Oct 23, 2016 22:37:04 GMT
1. It is a forgone conclusion that he did it though. He gave his name as 'Death to traitors' - that pretty much confirms he did it. 2. Mental illness is not an excuse for taking an innocent life though. If his mental health got that bad that he felt like killing Jo Cox then he should have told someone and sought more help. You can't justify any murder unless it is as an act of self defence. OK, it's not a forgone conclusion. Firstly calling yourself "Death to traitors" does not automatically make you a murderer, try it for yourself, next time someone asks your name reply "Death to traitors" and see if you suddenly turn into a murderer, or if I as predict you remain exactly the same person you were before you called yourself that. Secondly, if, as it may yet be established, Thomas Mair, is suffering from mental illness he may be found not guilty, sure he's likely to be subsequently held in secure hospital like Broadmore, but he will still in the eyes of the law be "not guilty". If that's true about the law, then that is ridiculous. I would ask the current government if they sympathise with Norman Bates when they watch Psycho because he is clearly mentally ill, yet we're quite rightly meant to hate him. Murder isn't some small thing that can be excused with exceptional circumstances; if not the mentally ill person prosecuted it should be his family and/or friends for not keeping a close enough eye on him. Somebody needs to be blamed in the case of murder. Also: why would he call himself 'Death to traitors' if the word 'traitors' had no meaning? 'Traitors' is clearly supposed to be referring to Jo Cox and those of us who were on the 'remain' camp. I'm sorry but Thomas Mair has shown himself guilty for his crimes from the start; if it's the mental illness that led him to calling himself 'death to traitors' his lawyer for the court case should have spoken out at some point between then and now but I believe he knows exactly what he said and who he was referring to. Nobody on the remain side has been accused of murder or assault during Brexit and that to me speaks volumes. We may be demanding another referendum but we're not breaking the law over it.
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Brexit
Oct 23, 2016 23:23:13 GMT
Post by icecreamdf on Oct 23, 2016 23:23:13 GMT
OK, it's not a forgone conclusion. Firstly calling yourself "Death to traitors" does not automatically make you a murderer, try it for yourself, next time someone asks your name reply "Death to traitors" and see if you suddenly turn into a murderer, or if I as predict you remain exactly the same person you were before you called yourself that. Secondly, if, as it may yet be established, Thomas Mair, is suffering from mental illness he may be found not guilty, sure he's likely to be subsequently held in secure hospital like Broadmore, but he will still in the eyes of the law be "not guilty". If that's true about the law, then that is ridiculous. I would ask the current government if they sympathise with Norman Bates when they watch Psycho because he is clearly mentally ill, yet we're quite rightly meant to hate him. Murder isn't some small thing that can be excused with exceptional circumstances; if not the mentally ill person prosecuted it should be his family and/or friends for not keeping a close enough eye on him. Somebody needs to be blamed in the case of murder. Also: why would he call himself 'Death to traitors' if the word 'traitors' had no meaning? 'Traitors' is clearly supposed to be referring to Jo Cox and those of us who were on the 'remain' camp. I'm sorry but Thomas Mair has shown himself guilty for his crimes from the start; if it's the mental illness that led him to calling himself 'death to traitors' his lawyer for the court case should have spoken out at some point between then and now but I believe he knows exactly what he said and who he was referring to. Nobody on the remain side has been accused of murder or assault during Brexit and that to me speaks volumes. We may be demanding another referendum but we're not breaking the law over it. If a mentally ill person murders someone, then they should probably be put into some kind of secure mental health facility. Prison isn't going to provide the care and support that they need. If they can be cured, and are unlikely to commit murder again, then there is no reason to keep them locked up. I don't know much about this particular story, but you can't let the actions of one crazy person define an entire group of people. You can probably argue that the retirect of the leave side, that portrayed the remain side as traitors, was partially to blame, but I don't think anybody would suggest that all leave voters are murderers.
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Brexit
Oct 24, 2016 2:46:43 GMT
Post by jasonward on Oct 24, 2016 2:46:43 GMT
dalekbuster523finish there are many different types of defence to criminal prosecutions, pleading "not guilty" does not mean "I didn't do it", it means "I am not culpable", now often, the defence will be "I am not guilty because I didn't do it" but it could be almost anything that makes you not culpable, if you genuinely feel that mentally ill people should be excluded from this kind of defence, I would ask you to look at yourself, you sig notes that you are autistic, and then makes special pleading because of that fact. What entitles you do special pleading but not someone who is mentally ill? Are you sure that autism isn't a form of mental illness?
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Brexit
Oct 24, 2016 7:10:21 GMT
Post by dalekbuster523finish on Oct 24, 2016 7:10:21 GMT
dalekbuster523finish there are many different types of defence to criminal prosecutions, pleading "not guilty" does not mean "I didn't do it", it means "I am not culpable", now often, the defence will be "I am not guilty because I didn't do it" but it could be almost anything that makes you not culpable, if you genuinely feel that mentally ill people should be excluded from this kind of defence, I would ask you to look at yourself, you sig notes that you are autistic, and then makes special pleading because of that fact. What entitles you do special pleading but not someone who is mentally ill? Are you sure that autism isn't a form of mental illness? Autism is a form of mental illness but the difference is if I murdered someone I wouldn't expect to get away with it. I wouldn't use it as an excuse for the murder. Murder is inexcusable and mental illness certainly does not equate to 'I am not culpable' if said person actually did murder the victim in my book. It's not a small crime.
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