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Brexit
Oct 17, 2016 10:46:46 GMT
Post by eldersensorite on Oct 17, 2016 10:46:46 GMT
Those of you who voted to leave weren't brainwashed but you were given a pack of lies. At least the politicians on the remain side didn't lie to us remainers. No, I'd have to disagree with the fact we were given a pack of lies. Key word being pack. Yes, we were told lies, but those lies weren't relevant. The relevant ones weren't actually lies. There's a reason people voted leave and aren't saying they regret. If you can't accept democracy, then that's got nothing to do with me. And also I can understand why somebody would vote remain, too. Fair enough. There are points for both sides. Well, there were a hell of a lot of lies. There was the money we contribute (both the amount and how it would be spent if we left), immigration (the idea that leaving would massively reduce it, or that Turkey would be joining the EU any time soon), parliamentary sovereignty (we are a sovereign nation (and the faults in our system are not to do with the EU), PM wants brexit without parliament having a say in the way we should leave) - all three of the main issues involved at least heavy misguiding.
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Brexit
Oct 17, 2016 11:04:10 GMT
Post by Deleted on Oct 17, 2016 11:04:10 GMT
No, I'd have to disagree with the fact we were given a pack of lies. Key word being pack. Yes, we were told lies, but those lies weren't relevant. The relevant ones weren't actually lies. There's a reason people voted leave and aren't saying they regret. If you can't accept democracy, then that's got nothing to do with me. And also I can understand why somebody would vote remain, too. Fair enough. There are points for both sides. Well, there were a hell of a lot of lies. There was the money we contribute (both the amount and how it would be spent if we left), immigration (the idea that leaving would massively reduce it, or that Turkey would be joining the EU any time soon), parliamentary sovereignty (we are a sovereign nation (and the faults in our system are not to do with the EU), PM wants brexit without parliament having a say in the way we should leave) - all three of the main issues involved at least heavy misguiding. Look, if we were lied to so valiently, then why aren't people, who were leave, campaigning on the street. I'm sorry, but this is incredibly weak as an argument. Also, you could theoretically make the argument that the Remain campaign was entirely unproven and weak scaremongering, could you not?
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Brexit
Oct 17, 2016 11:34:28 GMT
Post by eldersensorite on Oct 17, 2016 11:34:28 GMT
Well, there were a hell of a lot of lies. There was the money we contribute (both the amount and how it would be spent if we left), immigration (the idea that leaving would massively reduce it, or that Turkey would be joining the EU any time soon), parliamentary sovereignty (we are a sovereign nation (and the faults in our system are not to do with the EU), PM wants brexit without parliament having a say in the way we should leave) - all three of the main issues involved at least heavy misguiding. Look, if we were lied to so valiently, then why aren't people, who were leave, campaigning on the street. I'm sorry, but this is incredibly weak as an argument. Also, you could theoretically make the argument that the Remain campaign was entirely unproven and weak scaremongering, could you not? Well, I can't speak for other people, but I suppose because we haven't left so a lot of people haven't seen the extent of the lies (especially since 1) the brexit department refuse to give any specifics and 2) we haven't actually left yet), or perhaps they don't care about the specifics as long as we don't have to follow EU laws or accept freedom of movement, or that people who do want to hold the leave campaign to account are brushed off as "bremoaners" who hate democracy. Sure, there were lies on the remain side - both sides had a "project fear". Of course I'm biased, but I would say that some remainer's economic concerns have been coming true (and are likely to only become worse once we actually leave) - the value of the pound plummeting, companies being wary of investing (or even planning to move to be based somewhere else) and less than encouraging comments regarding trade deals from other countries.
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Brexit
Oct 17, 2016 11:45:56 GMT
Post by Deleted on Oct 17, 2016 11:45:56 GMT
Look, if we were lied to so valiently, then why aren't people, who were leave, campaigning on the street. I'm sorry, but this is incredibly weak as an argument. Also, you could theoretically make the argument that the Remain campaign was entirely unproven and weak scaremongering, could you not? Well, I can't speak for other people, but I suppose because we haven't left so a lot of people haven't seen the extent of the lies (especially since 1) the brexit department refuse to give any specifics and 2) we haven't actually left yet), or perhaps they don't care about the specifics as long as we don't have to follow EU laws or accept freedom of movement, or that people who do want to hold the leave campaign to account are brushed off as "bremoaners" who hate democracy. Sure, there were lies on the remain side - both sides had a "project fear". Of course I'm biased, but I would say that some remainer's economic concerns have been coming true (and are likely to only become worse once we actually leave) - the value of the pound plummeting, companies being wary of investing (or even planning to move to be based somewhere else) and less than encouraging comments regarding trade deals from other countries. But wasn't the point about the inevitable outcome... Besides, we're getting off topic and paulmorris777 has posted a bias left-wing plot outline for the Peladon story. GREAT
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Post by icecreamdf on Oct 17, 2016 13:32:52 GMT
As an American, I can tell you that people will vote for an idiot. Even if that idiot is racist, misogynistic, and a sexual predator. Yeah, but then again you Americans don't really have a choice. Besides, you only have word to go on that Trump is a sexual predator and he could have just been boasting the once. Furthermore, yes he is an idiot and yes he is probably vaguely racist. However, Hilary Clinton is incredibly crooked, failed the Americans and, just to top it all off, has entered potentially illegal activity and never been properly searched for it. Also, before you say, that I didn't hear that in the news, it's because it wasn't since the media is highly bias towards Clinton. Look, I'm just pointing out that they would both be bad leaders and are arguably the most unpopular leading candidates in American history. Well, he could have been boasting that once, but last I heard there were nine women who accused him of sexual assault. The fact that so many woman have accused him of sexual assault and the fact that he is on video bragging about committing sexual assault leads me to believe that he is a sexual predator. Hillary has been investigated for the emails and Benghazi and there was no evidence that she did anything illegal. At worst, she is as crooked as the average politician, but she is nowhere near as awful as Trump. Trump is more than vaguely racist. He has called Mexicans rapists, suggested banning Muslims from entering America, been endorsed by the Klan, compared Hillary to corrupt Jews, suggested that a judge couldn't judge his crooked university because he was of Mexican descent, attacked the Muslim parents of a dead American soldier. I could go on. Hillary has her problems, but Trump is just deplorable.
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Post by dalekbuster523finish on Oct 17, 2016 13:38:47 GMT
Those of you who voted to leave weren't brainwashed but you were given a pack of lies. At least the politicians on the remain side didn't lie to us remainers. No, I'd have to disagree with the fact we were given a pack of lies. Key word being pack. Yes, we were told lies, but those lies weren't relevant. The relevant ones weren't actually lies. There's a reason people voted leave and aren't saying they regret. If you can't accept democracy, then that's got nothing to do with me. And also I can understand why somebody would vote remain, too. Fair enough. There are points for both sides. Those lies are relevant and hugely serious when they're promising non-existential money to the NHS. I think you'd find if the referendum was hold again today, now that the leave campaign's lies have been exposed remain would win.
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Post by dalekbuster523finish on Oct 17, 2016 13:42:03 GMT
Those of you who voted to leave weren't brainwashed but you were given a pack of lies. At least the politicians on the remain side didn't lie to us remainers. No, I'd have to disagree with the fact we were given a pack of lies. Key word being pack. Yes, we were told lies, but those lies weren't relevant. The relevant ones weren't actually lies. There's a reason people voted leave and aren't saying they regret. If you can't accept democracy, then that's got nothing to do with me. And also I can understand why somebody would vote remain, too. Fair enough. There are points for both sides. Those lies are relevant when many people voted to leave based on the money from leaving the EU going to the NHS. I'm convinced that if another referendum was held today the result would be to remain.
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Brexit
Oct 17, 2016 13:45:26 GMT
Post by eldersensorite on Oct 17, 2016 13:45:26 GMT
No, I'd have to disagree with the fact we were given a pack of lies. Key word being pack. Yes, we were told lies, but those lies weren't relevant. The relevant ones weren't actually lies. There's a reason people voted leave and aren't saying they regret. If you can't accept democracy, then that's got nothing to do with me. And also I can understand why somebody would vote remain, too. Fair enough. There are points for both sides. Those lies are relevant and hugely serious when they're promising non-existential money to the NHS. I think you'd find if the referendum was hold again today, now that the leave campaign's lies have been exposed remain would win. Honestly, I don't think remain would win a second referendum. While some people regret their leave vote, the vast majority stand by it, plus there would probably be voters who vote leave because they don't agree with having the referendum itself. It's an odd one, direct democracy.
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Post by dalekbuster523finish on Oct 17, 2016 13:49:50 GMT
Those lies are relevant and hugely serious when they're promising non-existential money to the NHS. I think you'd find if the referendum was hold again today, now that the leave campaign's lies have been exposed remain would win. Honestly, I don't think remain would win a second referendum. While some people regret their leave vote, the vast majority stand by it, plus there would probably be voters who vote leave because they don't agree with having the referendum itself. It's an odd one, direct democracy. I don't know, I think if you asked any leave voter now if they regret their vote they would say yes - especially with the drop of the pound, rising prices, lies by Boris Johnson and Nigel Farage and the fact that many of them came on TV/radio afterwards and said 'I voted to leave but I thought the vote was just hypothetical'!
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Brexit
Oct 17, 2016 13:50:20 GMT
Post by Deleted on Oct 17, 2016 13:50:20 GMT
Yeah, but then again you Americans don't really have a choice. Besides, you only have word to go on that Trump is a sexual predator and he could have just been boasting the once. Furthermore, yes he is an idiot and yes he is probably vaguely racist. However, Hilary Clinton is incredibly crooked, failed the Americans and, just to top it all off, has entered potentially illegal activity and never been properly searched for it. Also, before you say, that I didn't hear that in the news, it's because it wasn't since the media is highly bias towards Clinton. Look, I'm just pointing out that they would both be bad leaders and are arguably the most unpopular leading candidates in American history. Well, he could have been boasting that once, but last I heard there were nine women who accused him of sexual assault. The fact that so many woman have accused him of sexual assault and the fact that he is on video bragging about committing sexual assault leads me to believe that he is a sexual predator. Hillary has been investigated for the emails and Benghazi and there was no evidence that she did anything illegal. At worst, she is as crooked as the average politician, but she is nowhere near as awful as Trump. Trump is more than vaguely racist. He has called Mexicans rapists, suggested banning Muslims from entering America, been endorsed by the Klan, compared Hillary to corrupt Jews, suggested that a judge couldn't judge his crooked university because he was of Mexican descent, attacked the Muslim parents of a dead American soldier. I could go on. Hillary has her problems, but Trump is just deplorable. I'm afraid I have to disagree. But we can agree to disagree. After all, the assault is entirely allegations... And could just be lies. Let's just agree to disagree. Since I think they are just as bad as each other, but you are allowed to have your opinion of course.
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Brexit
Oct 17, 2016 13:51:00 GMT
Post by Deleted on Oct 17, 2016 13:51:00 GMT
Honestly, I don't think remain would win a second referendum. While some people regret their leave vote, the vast majority stand by it, plus there would probably be voters who vote leave because they don't agree with having the referendum itself. It's an odd one, direct democracy. I don't know, I think if you asked any leave voter now if they regret their vote they would say yes - especially with the drop of the pound, rising prices, lies by Boris Johnson and Nigel Farage and the fact that many of them came on TV/radio afterwards and said 'I voted to leave but I thought the vote was just hypothetical'! Yes. And you're the spokesperson for the whole human race, aren't you? The most bias man on planet Earth.
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Brexit
Oct 17, 2016 13:51:58 GMT
Post by Deleted on Oct 17, 2016 13:51:58 GMT
No, I'd have to disagree with the fact we were given a pack of lies. Key word being pack. Yes, we were told lies, but those lies weren't relevant. The relevant ones weren't actually lies. There's a reason people voted leave and aren't saying they regret. If you can't accept democracy, then that's got nothing to do with me. And also I can understand why somebody would vote remain, too. Fair enough. There are points for both sides. Those lies are relevant when many people voted to leave based on the money from leaving the EU going to the NHS. I'm convinced that if another referendum was held today the result would be to remain. Any old excuse'll do, eh?
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Post by dalekbuster523finish on Oct 17, 2016 13:52:49 GMT
Those lies are relevant when many people voted to leave based on the money from leaving the EU going to the NHS. I'm convinced that if another referendum was held today the result would be to remain. Any old excuse'll do, eh? The NHS is hardly 'any old excuse'.
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Brexit
Oct 17, 2016 13:54:09 GMT
Post by Deleted on Oct 17, 2016 13:54:09 GMT
Any old excuse'll do, eh? The NHS is hardly 'any old excuse'. No, but I highly doubt 51.8% of the British population voted because of that... No it wasn't at all... The reason we are leaving is due to genuine problems with the EU, rather than what they threatened.
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Brexit
Oct 17, 2016 13:59:17 GMT
Post by eldersensorite on Oct 17, 2016 13:59:17 GMT
Honestly, I don't think remain would win a second referendum. While some people regret their leave vote, the vast majority stand by it, plus there would probably be voters who vote leave because they don't agree with having the referendum itself. It's an odd one, direct democracy. I don't know, I think if you asked any leave voter now if they regret their vote they would say yes - especially with the drop of the pound, rising prices, lies by Boris Johnson and Nigel Farage and the fact that many of them came on TV/radio afterwards and said 'I voted to leave but I thought the vote was just hypothetical'! Eh, I think you overestimate how much net change there has been in opinion. Some people who vaguely supported leave may have changed their mind once they've seen the consequences (but equally people who were vaguely supportive of remain will tell you that democracy matters more) but the voters whose views were more nationalistic definitely won't have changed.
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Post by icecreamdf on Oct 17, 2016 14:10:09 GMT
Well, he could have been boasting that once, but last I heard there were nine women who accused him of sexual assault. The fact that so many woman have accused him of sexual assault and the fact that he is on video bragging about committing sexual assault leads me to believe that he is a sexual predator. Hillary has been investigated for the emails and Benghazi and there was no evidence that she did anything illegal. At worst, she is as crooked as the average politician, but she is nowhere near as awful as Trump. Trump is more than vaguely racist. He has called Mexicans rapists, suggested banning Muslims from entering America, been endorsed by the Klan, compared Hillary to corrupt Jews, suggested that a judge couldn't judge his crooked university because he was of Mexican descent, attacked the Muslim parents of a dead American soldier. I could go on. Hillary has her problems, but Trump is just deplorable. I'm afraid I have to disagree. But we can agree to disagree. After all, the assault is entirely allegations... And could just be lies. Let's just agree to disagree. Since I think they are just as bad as each other, but you are allowed to have your opinion of course. If it was just one, or even two, allegations I might be willing to give Trump the benefit of the doubt. However, it was nine last time I checked (it might be more by now). I don't think they all made it up. I don't see what they get out of that, except for being called "too ugly to assault" by Trump on TV. Plus, he admitted to assaulting women in that video. Long before he was running for president, my mom told me a story about Donald Trump. My mom worked for the March of Dimes, and they were doing a fundraiser at a building that Trump owned. Trump and (convicted rapist) Mike Tyson went up to one of my Mom's young female coworkers. Trump told the woman that Tyson "wanted her," and shoved her into an elevator with Tyson. One of my mom's coworkers ran up the stairs and called the elevator at the next floor, and told the terrified woman that she was needed. The way he fat-shamed that Miss Universe Contestant, the way he talks about women on Howard Stern, and that awful tape with Billy Bush show how he thinks about women. This makes it very hard to doubt the women who say that Trump treated them like they were less than human.
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Brexit
Oct 17, 2016 14:35:18 GMT
Post by Deleted on Oct 17, 2016 14:35:18 GMT
I'm afraid I have to disagree. But we can agree to disagree. After all, the assault is entirely allegations... And could just be lies. Let's just agree to disagree. Since I think they are just as bad as each other, but you are allowed to have your opinion of course. If it was just one, or even two, allegations I might be willing to give Trump the benefit of the doubt. However, it was nine last time I checked (it might be more by now). I don't think they all made it up. I don't see what they get out of that, except for being called "too ugly to assault" by Trump on TV. Plus, he admitted to assaulting women in that video. Long before he was running for president, my mom told me a story about Donald Trump. My mom worked for the March of Dimes, and they were doing a fundraiser at a building that Trump owned. Trump and (convicted rapist) Mike Tyson went up to one of my Mom's young female coworkers. Trump told the woman that Tyson "wanted her," and shoved her into an elevator with Tyson. One of my mom's coworkers ran up the stairs and called the elevator at the next floor, and told the terrified woman that she was needed. The way he fat-shamed that Miss Universe Contestant, the way he talks about women on Howard Stern, and that awful tape with Billy Bush show how he thinks about women. This makes it very hard to doubt the women who say that Trump treated them like they were less than human. You make some strong points there, but I would still say it is rich coming from Hilary Clinton. I personally feel the US Election is choosing to die via lethal injection or electric chair.
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Post by dalekbuster523finish on Oct 17, 2016 17:46:40 GMT
I don't know, I think if you asked any leave voter now if they regret their vote they would say yes - especially with the drop of the pound, rising prices, lies by Boris Johnson and Nigel Farage and the fact that many of them came on TV/radio afterwards and said 'I voted to leave but I thought the vote was just hypothetical'! Eh, I think you overestimate how much net change there has been in opinion. Some people who vaguely supported leave may have changed their mind once they've seen the consequences (but equally people who were vaguely supportive of remain will tell you that democracy matters more) but the voters whose views were more nationalistic definitely won't have changed. You see, that's what I don't get. Why do people feel proud to be British in a UK they want to return to being racist?
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Brexit
Oct 17, 2016 17:56:38 GMT
Post by muckypup on Oct 17, 2016 17:56:38 GMT
Honestly, I don't think remain would win a second referendum. While some people regret their leave vote, the vast majority stand by it, plus there would probably be voters who vote leave because they don't agree with having the referendum itself. It's an odd one, direct democracy. I don't know, I think if you asked any leave voter now if they regret their vote they would say yes - especially with the drop of the pound, rising prices, lies by Boris Johnson and Nigel Farage and the fact that many of them came on TV/radio afterwards and said 'I voted to leave but I thought the vote was just hypothetical'! I think the vote would be much the same as it was, a couple of points either way, we are a very divided nation currently. there are to many people forgotten by politics currently, many of those in charge have very Victorian values and think it's the poors fault, that they are poor! When the real truth is its not, sure there are exceptions but when even education these days is a barrier to prosperity somethings wrong. until we realise that that all skills are valuable and get rid of the blood sucking middle men, opportunist law vigulanties & tyrancal money barons, the divides will only deepen. brexit was a rally cry, a misguided one but for good or ill, many of the leaves would still be leave! run it again & yes a narrow margin stay might win now, but in years time when Italy is on the brink, Germany has a new direction, France's right wing gets a stronger hold & the pound has fallen below the euro so immigration has dropped they may feel they made the right choice. as to the lies, both sides told lies because who wants to hear the truth,which is that which ever way we voted it was a between the devil & the deep blue sea choice.
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Brexit
Oct 17, 2016 18:05:21 GMT
Post by eldersensorite on Oct 17, 2016 18:05:21 GMT
Eh, I think you overestimate how much net change there has been in opinion. Some people who vaguely supported leave may have changed their mind once they've seen the consequences (but equally people who were vaguely supportive of remain will tell you that democracy matters more) but the voters whose views were more nationalistic definitely won't have changed. You see, that's what I don't get. Why do people feel proud to be British in a UK they want to return to being racist? I don't pretend to understand the minds of nationalists.
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