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Post by paulmorris7777 on Jul 11, 2016 12:19:14 GMT
Just gonna add: People who prefer NuWho are likely to love Missy. People who prefer Classic Who are likely to hate Missy. The General Public/The Casual Viewers are confounded by Missy and have mostly given up on the show by this point. Most of the people watching the show are life-long viewers. To be honest, I don't find it that inviting to the public, as a lot of storylines that are heavily promoted link to previous stories that need to be viewed. The fanbase is bigger than ever, I'll definitely say. But I think the viewership of the General Public is probably at its lowest in a while. Everything here is speculation. I think you'll find a lot of people who prefer the classic series and like Missy. She's very similar to Roger Degaldo's Master. I also wouldn't say casual viewers are confused by Missy. Quite the opposite, actually. A lot of casual viewers love Missy. Michelle Gomez has been nominated for numerous awards, including the BAFTAs (the panel will be made up of casual viewers rather than Whovians). I think the stories are perfectly fine for the casual audience. For example, in The Magician's Apprentice/The Witch's Familiar the speech from Genesis of the Daleks is shown so that they understand what the episode is based on. If they are still confused about the link to a previous serial after that then they are pudding brains and shouldn't be watching an intelligent show like Doctor Who. Gomez is nothing like Delgados Master.
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Post by mrperson on Jul 11, 2016 15:39:54 GMT
I think I've made these comments before, but I'll say it again. I am a woman. I love both Classic and Modern Who but I don't want to see a female Doctor. I have begrugingly accepted Missy, although I still wish it hadn't been done. But I may be one of those that turns it off if The Doctor regenerates into a woman. I think it's a terrible idea. I feel the same way. There didn't seem to be any in-story reason to do it with Missy. It felt like it was done (1) because they can, (2) to stir the pot. Well, they did it and it stirred the pot, but I still don't see any reasons other than that for having done it. It didn't serve the slightest in-story reason other than that, perhaps, the Doctor was slightly slow on the uptake that Missy=Master. But his being slightly slow on the uptake didn't accomplish anything in-story. They'd still have investigated the building with the tanks, etc. What might have been an in-story reason? Perhaps if the Master had to regenerate into a female, perhaps using the Sisters of Karn to do it, for a purpose such as escaping from a prison....and that this also had some important function in a story or arc. But there was no reason other than "well, we're just going to say that this happens now." Ah well, what's done is done. As for the Doctor, well, that would annoy me quite a bit more. They didn't have any in-story reason to do it with Missy and I don't see what in-story reason could possibly exist for doing it to the Doctor. Plus, I'm willing to bet that the Doctor becoming female would be used as a source of endless low-brow humor, such as that along the lines of making a joke out of Missy rubbing Dalek "balls". (I am not completely averse to low-brow humor, but it has it's time and place such as in a Beavis & Butthead episode....). To tie my post back into the thread's theme: Moffat's insertion of sex-change regeneration into the mythology sounds like something Moffat would do because he seems to like to rile up the viewership for the sake of riling them up (perhaps he thinks it keeps the show fresh). I'm not aware of anything about Chinball that suggests he likes doing the same, and I hope that he doesn't. (On the other hand, recasting male characters as female seems to be in vogue at the moment. Ghostbusters, Iron Man, etc. And for better or worse - usually worse - rebooted Who follows whatever trends happen to be floating around in modern entertainment) (I'm very much a "live and let live" type person, so this view has nothing to do with any personal bias as far as I'm aware.)
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Post by dalekbuster523finish on Jul 11, 2016 16:36:01 GMT
Everything here is speculation. I think you'll find a lot of people who prefer the classic series and like Missy. She's very similar to Roger Degaldo's Master. I also wouldn't say casual viewers are confused by Missy. Quite the opposite, actually. A lot of casual viewers love Missy. Michelle Gomez has been nominated for numerous awards, including the BAFTAs (the panel will be made up of casual viewers rather than Whovians). I think the stories are perfectly fine for the casual audience. For example, in The Magician's Apprentice/The Witch's Familiar the speech from Genesis of the Daleks is shown so that they understand what the episode is based on. If they are still confused about the link to a previous serial after that then they are pudding brains and shouldn't be watching an intelligent show like Doctor Who. Gomez is nothing like Delgados Master. I disagree. She has the sinister charm of Roger Degaldo.
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Post by paulmorris7777 on Jul 11, 2016 18:45:00 GMT
Gomez is nothing like Delgados Master. I disagree. She has the sinister charm of Roger Degaldo. Nah!
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Post by dalekbuster523finish on Jul 11, 2016 21:07:07 GMT
Everything here is speculation. I think you'll find a lot of people who prefer the classic series and like Missy. She's very similar to Roger Degaldo's Master. I also wouldn't say casual viewers are confused by Missy. Quite the opposite, actually. A lot of casual viewers love Missy. Michelle Gomez has been nominated for numerous awards, including the BAFTAs (the panel will be made up of casual viewers rather than Whovians). I think the stories are perfectly fine for the casual audience. For example, in The Magician's Apprentice/The Witch's Familiar the speech from Genesis of the Daleks is shown so that they understand what the episode is based on. If they are still confused about the link to a previous serial after that then they are pudding brains and shouldn't be watching an intelligent show like Doctor Who. I should also add that critics these days take things very differently from the general public. And Doctor Who isn't an intelligent show at all, at least not on TV, at least not recently. Magician's Apprentice takes elements of Genesis Of The Daleks and Part 2 is incredibly similar to Terror Firma. Under The Lake is a weaker version of Impossible Planet/Satan Pit and Festival Of Death. The Girl Who Died uses Fires Of Pompeii as it's basis. The Woman Who Lived is rather similar to Bad Wolf/Parting Of The Ways, with a blander story behind it. The Zygon Invasion/The Zygon Inversion, no matter how much I enjoy part of it, has a ton of problems. It's entirely based on Day Of The Doctor and Death In Heaven. It features an overly-blatant satire of the political situation (which is not how you should do it in Doctor Who, really). The plane crash cliffhanger was merely shrugged off and Osgood changes as if a completely different character from her previous appearances. Sleep No More is probably the only one of two stories which I, personally, could term as clever. The story is clearly a micky-take out of both hammer horror and slasher movies. It does it in an insanely entertaining manner and the story is completely different to everything in the series. Face The Raven, honestly, is pretty unoriginal. It isn't particularly clever, but I'd certainly say an audience of the general public could watch it without seeing previous stories. Heaven Sent is also incredibly original and mature. However, what follows it, Hell Bent, was the nail in the coffin for how Moffat will be regarded by Doctor Who historians. He sends out so much promise and delivers a fanw***y explanation for it. The Husbands Of River Song is an okay runaround, except for the ending which probably alienates general audiences who probably won't remember an episode broadcast 7 and 1/2 years ago. So, on the whole, Series 9 isn't clever or original, for that matter. And even, to be honest, Heaven Sent sort of steals a bit from Circular Time's Winter. Doctor Who is far more intelligent than the likes of Game of Thrones or The Walking Dead. Yes, the show takes inspiration from other episodes but it always has done. The Complete History is good at noting when it does.
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Post by paulmorris7777 on Jul 11, 2016 21:20:29 GMT
Intelligence in a tv show can be a double edged sword. Intelligent writing could mean something The Silurians, which had a subtle message of immigration. Theres intelligent dialogue, and an intelligent tight script with no plot holes. Classic Who talked to the audience, not down. NuWho isn't subtle, more like a sledgehammer. I don't study enough NuWho to compare it.
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Post by constonks on Jul 12, 2016 1:10:14 GMT
NuWho isn't subtle, more like a sledgehammer. Absolutely. That's not to say I haven't enjoyed some of the political episodes. The one about islamophobia I mean Zygons was pretty decent IMO. But I can't think of any subtle messages off the top of my head. I expect an uptick of political, thoughtful subtlety under Chibnall. But we'll see...
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Post by paulmorris7777 on Jul 12, 2016 8:21:38 GMT
NuWho isn't subtle, more like a sledgehammer. Absolutely. That's not to say I haven't enjoyed some of the political episodes. The one about islamophobia I mean Zygons was pretty decent IMO. But I can't think of any subtle messages off the top of my head. I expect an uptick of political, thoughtful subtlety under Chibnall. But we'll see... I've felt for a very long time that British tv isn't as good as it used to be. I didn't enjoy the last Poirot series, too slow. The latest Miss Marples all have stellar casting. Its always the same people.on tv - David Tennant, Olivia Coleman or James Nesbitt. The quality of writing has plummeted.
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Post by omega on Jul 12, 2016 8:44:00 GMT
Intelligence in a tv show can be a double edged sword. Intelligent writing could mean something The Silurians, which had a subtle message of immigration. Theres intelligent dialogue, and an intelligent tight script with no plot holes. Classic Who talked to the audience, not down. NuWho isn't subtle, more like a sledgehammer. I don't study enough NuWho to compare it. It's the same with comic books. Things Tom King write, like Grayson and Omega Men, tend to be written very intelligently and with a lot of depth (Grayson Futures End #1 for example, which necessitates multiple readings to understand everything). Much of this passes by readers and reviewers who prefer the more mainstream style of being spoon-fed, so they don't rate the books very highly. Tom King's titles definitely reward rereads, which appeals to me.
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Post by dalekbuster523finish on Jul 12, 2016 9:38:21 GMT
Intelligence in a tv show can be a double edged sword. Intelligent writing could mean something The Silurians, which had a subtle message of immigration. Theres intelligent dialogue, and an intelligent tight script with no plot holes. Classic Who talked to the audience, not down. NuWho isn't subtle, more like a sledgehammer. I don't study enough NuWho to compare it. The writing in the classic series was awful compared to the writing in the new series.
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Post by paulmorris7777 on Jul 12, 2016 11:23:30 GMT
Intelligence in a tv show can be a double edged sword. Intelligent writing could mean something The Silurians, which had a subtle message of immigration. Theres intelligent dialogue, and an intelligent tight script with no plot holes. Classic Who talked to the audience, not down. NuWho isn't subtle, more like a sledgehammer. I don't study enough NuWho to compare it. The writing in the classic series was awful compared to the writing in the new series. Wow, just wow!
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Post by Whovitt on Jul 12, 2016 11:46:13 GMT
Guys, I think it's gotten to the point where you should just concede that you both have (very) different opinions on the Classic and New series, regardless of what aspect is being considered (writing, characters, etc.). Constantly throwing your opinions back and forth over the same general topic doesn't progress discussion, rather it stops it dead in its tracks.
I'm not trying to say you can't have your opinions, nor that I agree/disagree with them, but repeating them over and over again just gets a bit tiresome.
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Post by Timelord007 on Jul 12, 2016 12:24:21 GMT
People said the same about William Hartnell-Patrick Troughton according to comments widely available from the time yet it worked. A female Doctor would work also - case in point: Michelle Gomez as Missy. Not everyone has accepted Missy. Many people I have spoken to aren't happy with Missy, or what Moffat has been doing with Capaldi and co. Many have said they will switch off, if the Doctor becomes a woman. Completely agree, Missys bad enough, but if they turned the Doctor female I'd certainly stop watching & i been a fan 37 yrs. And no I'm not sexist, i just prefer the Doctor to be played by a man that's all.
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Post by Timelord007 on Jul 12, 2016 12:28:25 GMT
Intelligence in a tv show can be a double edged sword. Intelligent writing could mean something The Silurians, which had a subtle message of immigration. Theres intelligent dialogue, and an intelligent tight script with no plot holes. Classic Who talked to the audience, not down. NuWho isn't subtle, more like a sledgehammer. I don't study enough NuWho to compare it. The writing in the classic series was awful compared to the writing in the new series. Ar you for real?, the writing was way better for the classic series, nowadays it's all about the companion saving the universe & poorly conceived arcs that make no sense. Hopefully Chibnail will steer the series back to it's roots & focus on the character of the Doctor. Like I've said before Big Finish writers deliver far better stories than the current tv series writers, The Two Masters by John Dorney was outstanding. I hope Chibnail gives a couple of the BF writers a chance to showcase what they could do in a tv episode.
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Post by Timelord007 on Jul 12, 2016 12:30:34 GMT
I think I've made these comments before, but I'll say it again. I am a woman. I love both Classic and Modern Who but I don't want to see a female Doctor. I have begrugingly accepted Missy, although I still wish it hadn't been done. But I may be one of those that turns it off if The Doctor regenerates into a woman. I think it's a terrible idea. Completely agree with this comment.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2016 12:55:43 GMT
The writing in the classic series was awful compared to the writing in the new series. Granted the classic series had its moments, but I find it extremely difficult to believe that twenty-six years of programming failed to produce something that outshone a show that has been on air for less than a decade at least once. That's the great strength of Doctor Who, things seem to change for the better far more often than they do for the worst. If the show's going through a rough patch at the moment, then all one has to do is wait it out for a new administration to take over and try their hand at it. Besides, without the efforts of the Verity Lambert, John Wiles, Innes Lloyd, Peter Bryant, Derrick Sherwin, Barry Letts, Philip Hinchcliffe, Graham Williams and John Nathan-Turner production offices, the new series wouldn't even exist. Hell, the show's revival under Russell T. Davies owes a great deal of thanks to the Virgin New Adventure story Human Nature, which was written for the classic series Seventh Doctor by a fan of that exact same series. Like it or not, the showrunners behind NuWho thought it great enough to try and bring back to life for the twenty-first century. Hopefully Chibnail will steer the series back to it's roots & focus on the character of the Doctor. Like I've said before Big Finish writers deliver far better stories than the current tv series writers, The Two Masters by John Dorney was outstanding. I hope Chibnail gives a couple of the BF writers a chance to showcase what they could do in a tv episode. A more conservative run of stories definitely seems on the cards following the last couple years of hit-and-miss experimentation. I'd snatch up Lance Parkin if he was still available after his adaptation of Cold Fusion. The man knows how to tell an exceptional story. Talking about the concerns surrounding the gender transition though, I'm thinking we should start developing some kind of shorthand term for it to save time. Any takers for the Barbarella Effect?
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Post by dalekbuster523finish on Jul 12, 2016 13:44:04 GMT
The writing in the classic series was awful compared to the writing in the new series. Ar you for real?, the writing was way better for the classic series, nowadays it's all about the companion saving the universe & poorly conceived arcs that make no sense. Hopefully Chibnail will steer the series back to it's roots & focus on the character of the Doctor. Like I've said before Big Finish writers deliver far better stories than the current tv series writers, The Two Masters by John Dorney was outstanding. I hope Chibnail gives a couple of the BF writers a chance to showcase what they could do in a tv episode. Classic Series - 'Nothin' in za world can stop me now!' New Series - 'Great men are forged in fire. It takes the privilege of a lesser man to light the flame,'
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bobod
Chancellery Guard
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Post by bobod on Jul 12, 2016 13:46:33 GMT
You and Paul77777777777777 are both totally wrong... since you're being so extreme in your comments.
Somewhere inbetween lies sense.
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Post by whiskeybrewer on Jul 12, 2016 13:58:52 GMT
The Doctors Speech at the end of The Dalek Invasion of Earth, is a fantastic piece of writing from ClassicWho. Same with the speech over the end of Survival. And the Doctors speech during Ark in Space.
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bobod
Chancellery Guard
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Post by bobod on Jul 12, 2016 14:16:53 GMT
You know, that 'indomitable' speech in Ark in Space does nothing for me. I know I'm in a minority of one.
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