|
Post by TinDogPodcast on Oct 10, 2015 6:20:03 GMT
Thought I'd start a thread for today
|
|
|
Post by iainbenson on Oct 10, 2015 21:02:28 GMT
I think I enjoyed it, but really didn't like the use of the {Spoiler}{Spoiler} bootstrap paradox, it strikes me as just lazy writing, and actually having the Doctor point out the fact that it doesn't work is somewhat rubbing the audience's faces in it.
Very underwhelmed considering the quality and build up provided by last week's episode.
|
|
|
Post by david on Oct 10, 2015 22:40:37 GMT
Loved it. My favourite two-parters are almost always ones that change style completely half way through whil keeping the same tone as this did that in spades. The opening didn't just break the fourth wall, it SMASHED it - which I adore. I loved it when John Normington did it throughout Caves Of Androzani and I love it in every version of Richard III, I love it in House Of Cards...etc
|
|
|
Post by Audio Watchdog on Oct 10, 2015 23:22:05 GMT
Loved it. Loved the wall SMASHING, loved the Beethoven, loved loved the guitar. This is as confident a show as I've ever seen. Peter Capaldi has become "my" Doctor. Speaking as someone who reallly liked Matt Smith's first series and thought each one after became a series of diminishing returns, I think Moffat has rediscovered those things which made his RTD episodes great. And I still feel like he is writing The Doctor he originally wanted and dreamed about before Matt Smith walked into his audition and killed it.
|
|
|
Post by david on Oct 10, 2015 23:48:30 GMT
It's the most Who-ish Who in decades, for sure. It's extremely self-assured and as much as I loved Series 8, this one is bating it hands down.
The cheeky ending paid off the Beethoven opening wonderfully. It was even filmed in the same sweeping shots. Very nice detail. The design on The Fisher King was truly expert as well - no chapy mid-season looking fluff here. As nice as it was having Peter Serafinowitz voicing the King, I'd dearly love him on screen.
|
|
|
Post by Audio Watchdog on Oct 10, 2015 23:59:39 GMT
It's the most Who-ish Who in decades, for sure. It's extremely self-assured and as much as I loved Series 8, this one is bating it hands down. The cheeky ending paid off the Beethoven opening wonderfully. It was even filmed in the same sweeping shots. Very nice detail. The design on The Fisher King was truly expert as well - no chapy mid-season looking fluff here. As nice as it was having Peter Serafinowitz voicing the King, I'd dearly love him on screen. I used to think Serafinowitz would make a great Doctor, I still do but I'd also love to see him as a companion.
|
|
|
Post by Timelord007 on Oct 11, 2015 7:34:18 GMT
Peter Capaldi is the rock god of Doctor Who please use the guitar version from now on please.
Brilliant episode with Capaldi on superb form throughout, great twists that made actual sense, I'd have liked more Fisher King screen time as i thought the character a interesting one but on the whole this was a cracking two-parter.
Timelord Overall Rating. 9/10
|
|
|
Post by TinDogPodcast on Oct 11, 2015 9:37:26 GMT
|
|
shutupbanks
Castellan
There’s a horror movie called Alien? That’s really offensive. No wonder everyone keeps invading you.
Likes: 5,677
|
Post by shutupbanks on Oct 11, 2015 12:39:00 GMT
Just aired here in Western Australia. Loved the opening theme. Thought it was a bit rushed in the ending, found the death of O'Donnell and the subsequent admission of love for her by Bennett a little contrived, ditto Cass and Lunn, and the whole Doctor-explaining-how-clever-he-is-after-the-fact bit a little silly, but it was a fun 40-something minutes and was a huge reminder of what four-parters were like back in the Classic era. It felt like Who more than any story for years.
|
|
|
Post by mrperson on Oct 12, 2015 14:26:11 GMT
Well.....
I don't like these fourth wall moments.
I thought the Fisher King was rather contrived and unnecessary. Also, his big plan made no sense: if he's able to summon ships at his call, why not just fly to Earth in them? (And in fact, the episode didn't really need a straight villain to work).
{ edit: either way, if the decision was made to have him in as a plot element, I'd have liked a little more made of it. We already knew something connected to the ship was making the 'ghosts', and I don't really see what more having it be this "Fisher King" that was doing it added. Finally, for the order of the plot to have made sense, wouldn't the Doctor have had to set the energy cell to explode before confronting this "Fisher King"? }
The lovey-dovey ending was also contrived and unnecessary.
Finally, "sonic" shades that can create a hologram (using light) despite being locked inside an object from which light cannot be projected?
I dunno. I'll give it another watch, but I did find last week's episode to be considerably stronger.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 12, 2015 16:48:25 GMT
Yeah the "oh it was a hologram" was awful nonsense - a hologram that could be projected outside of the base under the water? By a person 140 years in the past? Lazy, lazy scripting. Taking out the ghost doctor and the redundant bootstrap paradox would have made it a much better story, albeit 15 minutes short in length. I'm starting to think sherlock style (small number of better episodes) might be the way to go next year but even that doesn't guarantee quality. shame moffat and co aren't as competent as big finish
|
|
|
Post by TheTimelordSpy on Oct 12, 2015 20:03:31 GMT
It was generic moffat fare. Very convoluted writing with little to no explanation. 2.5 out of 5.
|
|
|
Post by elkawho on Oct 13, 2015 4:28:54 GMT
I really enjoyed this one. The new opening theme was terrific and I hope that they keep it. I loved the design of the Fisher King, probably one of my favorite DW monster designs ever. I wish there was more to him as a character, but maybe he'll show up again sometime either on TV or BF and we'll get to know the character and the race of aliens he comes from. I love the way they are writing 12 this year, and Capaldi has been brilliant. Can't wait for next week!
|
|
|
Post by Timelord007 on Oct 13, 2015 7:01:01 GMT
I really enjoyed this one. The new opening theme was terrific and I hope that they keep it. I loved the design of the Fisher King, probably one of my favorite DW monster designs ever. I wish there was more to him as a character, but maybe he'll show up again sometime either on TV or BF and we'll get to know the character and the race of aliens he comes from. I love the way they are writing 12 this year, and Capaldi has been brilliant. Can't wait for next week! Same here, a brilliant two-parter
|
|
|
Post by mrperson on Oct 15, 2015 18:49:28 GMT
Something that's kind of been nagging at me about the plot.
We know it's a straight causal loop / "bootstrap paradox." We also know that the Doctor always went back after the events of the first part and caused the flood that created the lake with the power cell. The power cell was always missing when the Doctor first arrived at the base, and was part of the puzzle that caused him to always go back in the second part. O'Donnell always went back with the Doctor. (I mention the power cell because otherwise the next bit might be explained by supposing the Doctor's actions replaced some event that originally flooded the lake; if it had been some other event, then that power cell wouldn't have been missing when he first arrived. And if it wasn't missing when he first arrived, he couldn't go back and use it to flood the lake, because then he'd be altering his own past, which is generally presented as a terribly bad idea. In short: he always caused the flood and he always did it with the power cell).
The trouble is that the second someone dies, their ghost appears. For this causal loop to make full sense, O'Donnell's ghost should have always appeared along with Prentis's, once the ship was brought on board the base. Her future self was already dead in the past, just like Prentis was already dead in the past. Instead, her ghost is shown to appear in the future "simultaneously" with her death in the past. Mistake #1.
Now, you might point out that if her ghost did appear the second they brought the ship into the base, O'Donnell probably wouldn't decide to go back with the Doctor in part 2. While true, that doesn't change the fact that given the story we were shown - she did go back and die - that her ghost should always have appeared with Prentis's.
But this would also create a repeating time loop: she would see her ghost, decide not to go back with the Doctor (unless he convinced her to go, knowing she had to die). This would change the events in the past, since she wouldn't die. That would change events in the future - no ghost. But since there then wouldn't be her ghost in the future, she would then decide to go back w/ the Doctor, and die. And there is no reason to suppose this would stop repeating. Basically, correcting Mistake #1 would cause something like a mobius strip in time. That's mistake #2.
Failure of possible resolution: Given that these ghosts are programmed to seek out other humans to kill & convert, and that they showed no restraint about seeking out their living fellows, it doesn't make sense to try to explain this by saying her ghost actually did appear with Prentis's but was just not shown because reasons such as that she was 'resisting' or just wandered off.
Seems a bit of an oversight, because the loop would make perfect sense had she not been killed in the past.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2015 18:58:23 GMT
She was hiding? For some inexplicable reason? More likely that her death changed the timeline, but it should have been backdated to the start of part one. Lazy scripting again
|
|
|
Post by mrperson on Oct 15, 2015 19:17:40 GMT
She was hiding? For some inexplicable reason? More likely that her death changed the timeline, but it should have been backdated to the start of part one. Lazy scripting again Well, my whole argument is that her death couldn't have changed the timeline because it was always part of it. Because again, the lake was flooded and the power cell was missing from the start. Meaning the Doctor always went back and ended up using one of the two power cells to blow up the dam. And if those events always happened that way, what could possibly have 'changed the timeline' such that in some versions of events, the Doctor goes back but O'Donnell doesn't, while in the version we see, she suddenly decides to go? There are no outside causes presented that would alter an existing loop in that way. (ie, Missy showing up in her TARDIS and causing a change to the loop). Basically, I see two things that could have fixed this: (a) O'Donnell simply doesn't die when she goes back with the Doctor, so we never have to worry about why her ghost wasn't there at the beginning with Prentis's in P1; (b) There is no missing power cell when the Doctor shows up, and the script simply includes some other mystery to wonder about, and the Doctor blows up the dam some other way.
|
|
|
Post by mrperson on Oct 15, 2015 19:21:06 GMT
[deleted]
|
|
|
Post by mrperson on Oct 16, 2015 22:48:22 GMT
As I said on GallifreyBase: "Plot hole no more!"
_______________________________ MEA CULPA!
Well, I was going to watch it again anyway. A few observations.
References to time are time remaining in episode (since that's what Amazon shows).
25:25 O'Donnell shot
24:40 O'Donnell dead
24:06-08 Doctor comments that because O'Donnell's ghost was not in the future, he thought she wouldn't die.
23:12 O'Donnell's ghost first shown, outside the Farraday cage BUT is not shown materializing.
16:10-04 Fisher King comments that enough ghosts were created to "wake me from my sleep." He only knows that they were created because the Doctor told him. But the key point is their creation in the future allowed his revival in the past. This suggests a highly advanced race and that the Fisher King's ghost creation specifically can fool around with time. While the limits are undefined, he at least has technology that is not utterly "stuck" in linear time, thus expanding the ways in which this particular causal time loop could work.
14:55-37 Doctor gives "this world is protected by me" speech; Fisher king response "yes. One man, lost in time." (Again: time tech/time sensitivity)
13:45 fisher King knows he is a Time Lord and that Time Lords were curators who suddenly "grew teeth" (aka, Time War reference - knowledge of the Time Lords and what they can do).
So in short... it was explicitly put that the ghost-transmitter creating is not necessarily tied to linear time. At the very least, the Fisher King has knowledge of and access to some time tech. So, it is not necessarily a problem for O'Donnell's ghost to only appear in the future once she dies in the past: once someone dies relative to the ship/Fisher King, that ghost can be created in the future. (And who knows about the past).
I was wrong. We don't need to come up with anything convoluted. It's the same thing as "oh, I just reversed the polarity of the neutron flow." O'Donnell's ghost was created when necessary; perhaps in a bid to kill more people and revive the now-drowned Fisher King. At least a workable explanation was in the episode, and I simply missed it.
Plot hole no more.
____________________
Which leaves the only thing rubbing me the wrong way (slightly) was the extended Fourth Wall moment and the somewhat unnecessary "awww, they're in love" bit at the end.
I dunno.
First part: 10/10 Second part: 9.5/10
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 17, 2015 7:15:25 GMT
I can get that they're tring to imply a link between the two times, perhaps created by the TARDIS travelling back. The fisher king was asleep when the Doctor arrived, so perhaps the Doctor arriving, with the message already in his brain from having read it in the future, and creting a temporal link to the future is what animates the fisher king and makes him follow such a strange plan. Ok my respect for the story has gone up, but a line or two of exposition would have helped, rather than acting as though the two episodes were set in sigferent places rather than two different times
|
|