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Post by fingersmash on Sept 9, 2016 0:28:09 GMT
My big issue with Owen is that he has no redeeming factors in my eyes. He rapes someone? Gets off scot free and the victim gets a severely damaged relationship. And it was depicted as a 'good thing' that Owen had no big consequences. The entire character of Owen just makes me sick and I will be happy if there is never a single Big Finish episode with that slimy, manipulative, boorish character.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 9, 2016 0:30:36 GMT
If Big Finish ever did make one for Owen, I would hope that they were able to make consequences for him, especially after what i just found out about what happened in season 1
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Post by Deleted on Sept 9, 2016 0:48:16 GMT
I apologies if anyone is offended by my defending a fictional character. One of he's first activities was a poor taste "humours" sex crime, however the scene and he did remain in the show and IMO he did evolve but clearly it was a terrible and as it turns out long lasting first impression. Regards mark687 If we can't debate fictional characters - both positive and negative - doesn't that make 95% of the forum rather redundant? We'll clearly differ on it but an act like that is such a marker, such an event that it's almost impossible for me to be able to give any credit for Owen loosening up, or be sympathetic when we see his Series 2 trials. Honestly, and again this is only me, it's 20 seconds of screentime that kills the character right out of the blocks. He was DOA. Burn's a really good actor who I've enjoyed in many things over the years and I hate to have this issue with Owen but, hey, this actually happened. Not obliquely or in a VNA-style spinoff. We saw that happen on screen and that's where the book closes on any redemptive arc for me, especially when it's ignored afterwards. He never has to deal with those actions. I'm sure RTD and Chibnall realised how stupid it was to have even thought about that scene much less put it on screen so that's why it was dropped like a bad habit but it's still there. It's odd, in Game of Thrones he again plays a rapist and that's a bit more like the depiction an act like that deserves - his character is presented as pure evil and without redemption. He was vile. But Owen....we're supposed to accept as some kinda cheeky-chappy. No...not for me.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 9, 2016 0:48:33 GMT
If Big Finish ever did make one for Owen, I would hope that they were able to make consequences for him, especially after what i just found out about what happened in season 1 See, it's kinda odd....the show almost seems to realise it went too far, and makes him an arse after that but not, ever again, something as bad as that. If you take that one scene out of the ep, he instantly works better because there's not that unforgivable act hanging over him. He's still a moaning, arrogant so-and-so but it wouldn't feel so....dirty....having him presented as one of the heroic team in future eps. I'd see it and make your mind up but I don't think anyone can seriously argue that it somehow didn't happen like that or that it wasn't sexual assault. The best case scenario is you can find a way to not think of it again, and move on not holding it against the character, like the writers, but easier said than done for me.
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Post by Ela on Sept 9, 2016 0:51:00 GMT
Your last two posts sum up pretty well the problem I have with the character of Owen, @davygallagher. He was such an unpleasant character to start with that nothing he did afterward really redeemed him in my eyes. And, to be honest, even the "better" Owen struck me as a pretty self-interested guy, out for himself, not for others.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 9, 2016 0:59:32 GMT
Your last two posts sum up pretty well the problem I have with the character of Owen, @davygallagher . He was such an unpleasant character to start with that nothing he did afterward really redeemed him in my eyes. And, to be honest, even the "better" Owen struck me as a pretty self-interested guy, out for himself, not for others. Absolutely, and having a self-interested, arrogant guy on the team would be a fine thing to depict in the show. We've had the likes of Yvonne Hartman and Suzie to show us that Torchwood doesn't always attract the best of people. I've nothing against unlikable people challenging the idea of "good guys and bad guys". Going back to Gwen's cheating on her seemingly loving partner - that doesn't make her wicked or evil. It makes her flawed, perhaps, and that's interesting potentially in exploring the shades of grey from good to bad. Whatever her indiscretions she was always presented as redeemable and perhaps someone just struggling to live with her "dull" homelife and her whirlwind job and therefore nearly losing one for the other. but having Owen be a rapist from the outset isn't a shade of grey, it's as dark as it comes.
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Post by kimalysong on Sept 9, 2016 1:06:16 GMT
I've only seen a few episodes of the TV series and I never really liked Owen. That being said this is Big Finish they can redeem anyone.
Although I didn't realize he raped someone yuck. Not even sure Big Finish can make me like his character after that.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 9, 2016 1:14:41 GMT
Very interesting comments guys, thanks for sharing.
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Post by barnabaslives on Sept 9, 2016 3:24:47 GMT
I'm certainly not going to succeed in defending the indefensible (nor would I want to try) but on the other hand, over in Dark Shadows territory there are characters who are still meant to be heroic figures after a remarkable laundry list of wrongdoings, provided they admit the error of their ways or are actively pursuing rehabilitation or whatever. I think I'd feel a bit odd calling out any member of Torchwood over an incident after that, whatever it might be - no matter how much I disapprove.
I think the TV series might have called upon viewers to at least try to understand Owen somewhat even if one doesn't like him, and did devote character development to him. Even if I can't think of anything I specifically like him for, he was still made to seem like part of the team such that I wouldn't mind him returning (same as with Suzie who I'm not sure has even been cast in the best light).
Also I'm not entirely sure of this, but I recall the incident in question as seemingly being part of a broader lesson for the whole team regarding the temptation toward personal use - misuse - of tech, where I think it was supposed to be a given that basically everyone in Torchwood ended up thinking "Oops, BIG mistake" over the consequences of "taking their work home"? I don't think Owen came across as being one bit cool for what he did, at least - quite the opposite, thankfully.
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Post by fingersmash on Sept 9, 2016 4:29:39 GMT
I'm certainly not going to succeed in defending the indefensible (nor would I want to try) but on the other hand, over in Dark Shadows territory there are characters who are still meant to be heroic figures after a remarkable laundry list of wrongdoings, provided they admit the error of their ways or are actively pursuing rehabilitation or whatever. I think I'd feel a bit odd calling out any member of Torchwood over an incident after that, whatever it might be - no matter how much I disapprove. I think the TV series might have called upon viewers to at least try to understand Owen somewhat even if one doesn't like him, and did devote character development to him. Even if I can't think of anything I specifically like him for, he was still made to seem like part of the team such that I wouldn't mind him returning (same as with Suzie who I'm not sure has even been cast in the best light). Also I'm not entirely sure of this, but I recall the incident in question as seemingly being part of a broader lesson for the whole team regarding the temptation toward personal use - misuse - of tech, where I think it was supposed to be a given that basically everyone in Torchwood ended up thinking "Oops, BIG mistake" over the consequences of "taking their work home"? I don't think Owen came across as being one bit cool for what he did, at least - quite the opposite, thankfully. The problem was, Owen committed the most despicable of acts and basically got off scot free. You can say it was bad all you want, but good storytelling and good writing would have shown Owen getting punished for his crime in some way, whether that be a harsh telling off from the team, Owen getting charges pressed against him, Jack going full on Cyberwoman on Owen, or something else. Adult themes can be tackled, but a writer has to show the consequences of adult actions if they're going to examine the topic, and Owen as a rapist was the exact opposite.
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Post by Ela on Sept 9, 2016 4:52:39 GMT
Exactly what fingersmash said. And Owen never admitted the error of his ways in this particular instance, barnabaslives. Nor do I see any particular effort on Owen's part to actively pursue rehabilitation. Sorry, but all the pro-Owen stuff I've read pretty much sounds like making excuses for his inexcusable behavior.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 9, 2016 5:46:31 GMT
Exactly what fingersmash said. And Owen never admitted the error of his ways in this particular instance, barnabaslives. Nor do I see any particular effort on Owen's part to actively pursue rehabilitation. Sorry, but all the pro-Owen stuff I've read pretty much sounds like making excuses for his inexcusable behavior. All I can say is that I dislike Owen as a person. If he were real he'd disgust me but I like the inclusion of his character because life has all sorts of people. It's like Davros. I like the character but that doesn't mean I like him or that I'm attempting to make excuses for him.
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Post by barnabaslives on Sept 9, 2016 6:32:33 GMT
And Owen never admitted the error of his ways in this particular instance, barnabaslives . Nor do I see any particular effort on Owen's part to actively pursue rehabilitation. Perhaps the best we would get out of Owen for reform would be for him not to repeat the offense? It had better not have been continuing to happen in the background. Sorry, but all the pro-Owen stuff I've read pretty much sounds like making excuses for his inexcusable behavior. I don't think I'd be pro-Owen in that sense, but I'm wondering what the authors of the show intended for us to try to see in him that we don't find them offensive just for keeping him around. Same with *my hero* Barnabas - I don't think anyone could excuse a lot of his behavior and some of it is very difficult for me to even watch again, but the show intends for us to find him redeemable in some way in spite of it.
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Post by acousticwolf on Sept 9, 2016 8:04:32 GMT
I apologies if anyone is offended by my defending a fictional character. One of he's first activities was a poor taste "humours" sex crime, however the scene and he did remain in the show and IMO he did evolve but clearly it was a terrible and as it turns out long lasting first impression. Regards mark687 This just reminds me how much I detested the start of Series 1 and that was before I was reminded about Gwen's infidelity . Cheers Tony
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Post by omega on Sept 9, 2016 8:25:25 GMT
In his first appearance the Doctor kidnaps Ian and Barbara and needs to be talked out of braining a caveman with a rock. That's abduction and intent to murder right there. Then there's his stunt with the Fluid Links in The Daleks, which exposes himself, his granddaughter and their captives to radiation, Daleks, mutants and bare Thal arms. That's directly risking all their lives because he needed to resort to false pretenses to get to explore!
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Post by Deleted on Sept 9, 2016 14:06:52 GMT
Which, again, is all stuff that is very much "shades of grey" - Owen's act wasn't. Comparing what he did to any of The Doctor's actions in An Unearthly Child is a spurious comparison at best. The Doctor doesn't kill the caveman, The Doctor does get forgiven by Ian and Barbara....I know you're not equating the acts but it demonstrates just how stupid it was to have this in a Whoniverse script that nothing else really comes close from a protagonist. I also take Brians point about Davros but, again, he's a villain. Out and out. Yes, BF have given him some pathos and backstory that the classic series never did but hes still a bad dude. He's not been presented after his acts as anything but villanous and pitiable. Unlike Owen. I think there seems to be a general concencus on this that the scene was ridiculous at best, so it's maybe preaching to the choir here. Again, even RTD and Chibnall have expressed regret over much of Series 1, and that it had to be written and produced much, much faster than any comparably-budgeted show. No excuse but I think if they had time to work on the series, that scene would have been out or altered radically.
Owen's involvement in any audios, though, wouldn't worry me - I've actually enjoyed some stories that feature Owen prominently - I just can't get on board with him as a protagonist after that. He's still an interesting character in himself, just not the more heroic, laddish one the show tries to paint him as later.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2016 6:02:23 GMT
Which, again, is all stuff that is very much "shades of grey" - Owen's act wasn't. Comparing what he did to any of The Doctor's actions in An Unearthly Child is a spurious comparison at best. The Doctor doesn't kill the caveman, The Doctor does get forgiven by Ian and Barbara....I know you're not equating the acts but it demonstrates just how stupid it was to have this in a Whoniverse script that nothing else really comes close from a protagonist. I also take Brians point about Davros but, again, he's a villain. Out and out. Yes, BF have given him some pathos and backstory that the classic series never did but hes still a bad dude. He's not been presented after his acts as anything but villanous and pitiable. Unlike Owen. I think there seems to be a general concencus on this that the scene was ridiculous at best, so it's maybe preaching to the choir here. Again, even RTD and Chibnall have expressed regret over much of Series 1, and that it had to be written and produced much, much faster than any comparably-budgeted show. No excuse but I think if they had time to work on the series, that scene would have been out or altered radically. Owen's involvement in any audios, though, wouldn't worry me - I've actually enjoyed some stories that feature Owen prominently - I just can't get on board with him as a protagonist after that. He's still an interesting character in himself, just not the more heroic, laddish one the show tries to paint him as later. Oh I agree, trying to later paint him as a hero is difficult given what he did in series 1.
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Post by Zagreus on Oct 3, 2016 22:08:49 GMT
The latest Vortex is up, Iss #92, and has a nice piece on The Archive. Seems that it's going to be a bit like The Crimson Pearl, for those listeners who have heard that over on the Dark Shadows side of things. Little segues and vignettes that all link together into a grander whole, spanning from Queen Victoria to the future of Torchwood as we know it. The article also says, among other things, that The Archive wraps up the Committee arc, so that's interesting to hear as well. Can't wait to hear it! (also can't wait to sit down and piece out the chronology haha!)
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Post by agentten on Oct 3, 2016 22:54:31 GMT
I was surprised to read that it would wrap up The Committee arc. It seemed like The Committee was going to be a long running story that the Torchwood range would dip in and out of. I have been enjoying the mystery of it. I hope Big Finish didn't feel pressured to resolve it prematurely.
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Post by Zagreus on Oct 4, 2016 0:50:04 GMT
Yeah I hope it still shows up from time to time in future releases. I suspect this is the case, especially considering Norton Folgate is apparently involved in Outbreak in some fashion.
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