mbt66
Chancellery Guard
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Post by mbt66 on Dec 11, 2016 17:07:26 GMT
Here we go this was the converstaion myself and wolfie had about Looms in Lungbarrow, Edited of course as we had about 2 or 3 different threads going at the same time lol: whiskeybrewer: If i did a Who story that involved the Looms and i would alter it slightly by having the looms take DNA from the parents and then weave a baby inside it (so there's still a womb of sorts) Then after a certain amount of time, the baby is "born". So with the Doctor, during this process when he was being Loomed, The Other's biodata is added to his parents mix, which is why he's different in a sense to the rest of his family and because its a third mix, he somehow has The Other's memories in his subconscious. What do you think? wolfie53: That'd fit perfectly, I think that's a marvellous way of getting around the issue altogether. I had a sneaking suspicion after reading The Gallifrey Chronicles and the like that the Doctor really did have parents, but not in the sense that human beings mean. After all, the looms had to get the genetic material from somewhere, even if the Gallifreyans were sterile. The Doctor may have spent a period of his very early childhood in the care of his natural born parents before coming under the thumb of Quences. That's really very clever. I've always thought it was a bit of a pity that the looms never really got a look in past Lungbarrow, even if Big Finish were willing to obliquely refer to the Great Houses with Romana visiting Heartshaven and that bit in Neverland where the Neverpeople identify the Time Lords' lineage. After that idea, the concept of the Time Lords being humdrum naturally born babies seemed kind of boring by comparison. whiskeybrewer: Sweet. If i ever adapted Lungbarrow, that is how I'd do it Also that would work with Listen as the scene in the Barn could be after he looks into the Schism and they arent his parents in the barn they are Quences and they talk about other's in the House, those being his brother Brax, and his Cousins. It could work. It really could. I have never read Lungbarrow, only heard that it is divisive, but I have always thought the idea of Looms were intriguing. Now having read this I think that would be perfect - well done! I don't suppose Big Finish will go there, but it would be interesting if they did.
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Dec 11, 2016 19:18:55 GMT
whiskeybrewer: Sweet. If i ever adapted Lungbarrow, that is how I'd do it Also that would work with Listen as the scene in the Barn could be after he looks into the Schism and they arent his parents in the barn they are Quences and they talk about other's in the House, those being his brother Brax, and his Cousins. It could work. It really could. I have never read Lungbarrow, only heard that it is divisive, but I have always thought the idea of Looms were intriguing. Now having read this I think that would be perfect - well done! I don't suppose Big Finish will go there, but it would be interesting if they did. Can't remember where, either an interview or podcast, but Nick said BF won't do it because Marc doesn't want to.
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Post by mark687 on Dec 11, 2016 19:30:57 GMT
I have never read Lungbarrow, only heard that it is divisive, but I have always thought the idea of Looms were intriguing. Now having read this I think that would be perfect - well done! I don't suppose Big Finish will go there, but it would be interesting if they did. Can't remember where, either an interview or podcast, but Nick said BF won't do it because Marc doesn't want to. It was at the last BF Day
Regards
mark687
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2016 20:10:34 GMT
I don't suppose Big Finish will go there, but it would be interesting if they did. Nick said BF won't do it because Marc doesn't want to. Nice one Marc!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2016 21:55:40 GMT
I have never read Lungbarrow, only heard that it is divisive, but I have always thought the idea of Looms were intriguing. Now having read this I think that would be perfect - well done! I don't suppose Big Finish will go there, but it would be interesting if they did. Can't remember where, either an interview or podcast, but Nick said BF won't do it because Marc doesn't want to. I can understand that. There are certain stories that would be exceptionally hard to do justice to nowadays like Timewyrm: Revelation. Still, never say never.
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Post by TimPendragon on Dec 11, 2016 22:24:21 GMT
I certainly understand why Lungbarrow is divisive, but I always enjoyed the concepts, it's really cool science fiction. It's muddled and messy, especially when taken in context with other things, but then, so is most of Doctor Who. The "Whiskey-Wolf theory" certainly seems like a great "fix" for those who can't "buy into the Looms" in light of modern Who. I guess I never had a problem with it, because I enjoy my Doctor being more alien than the series (especially the Tennant era) tends to show him.
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Post by whiskeybrewer on Dec 12, 2016 11:27:47 GMT
I shall adapt it........To The Keyboard lol
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Post by glutamodo on Dec 12, 2016 11:36:39 GMT
I don't remember now where I got it but somehow got a pdf or ebook copy of the book a few years ago and sat down and read it on my laptop, trying to kill some down time on a very slow day at work, as I wanted to see what the fuss was about. I found it interesting, if nothing else. It did have some very striking imagery, but not sure if I liked the way the Gallifrey culture was described. I eventually decided that something of a similar theory to the one espoused above would have to be laid out if the book ever could be made to fit into overall continuity.
I didn't dislike the book though, and would certainly buy it if it ever were to be produced by BF.
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Post by whiskeybrewer on Dec 13, 2016 11:51:56 GMT
Oh just thinking as well, in regards to the stuff with The Other, i'd replace Susan in the very distant past with a version of Patience
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Post by constonks on Dec 29, 2016 3:18:10 GMT
Funnily enough, I feel like I've seen the mother-and-father-loom-a-baby explanation elsewhere as well. Which I think is a tidy enough explanation. My personal thought on it is that it's a contradiction on a cosmic level, rather than a narrative one. No, it doesn't make sense. But it fits something the Eleventh Doctor said once...
"Everyone's got memories of a holiday they couldn't have been on or a party they never went to, or met someone for the first time and felt like they've known them all their lives. Time is being rewritten all around us, every day. People think their memories are bad, but their memories are fine. The past is really like that."
So, in my eyes, the Doctor is loom-born and womb-born and half-human and fully Time Lord and all of those things can exist simultaneously in the same continuity without being a problem for me.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 29, 2016 3:48:00 GMT
Funnily enough, I feel like I've seen the mother-and-father-loom-a-baby explanation elsewhere as well. Which I think is a tidy enough explanation. My personal thought on it is that it's a contradiction on a cosmic level, rather than a narrative one. No, it doesn't make sense. But it fits something the Eleventh Doctor said once... "Everyone's got memories of a holiday they couldn't have been on or a party they never went to, or met someone for the first time and felt like they've known them all their lives. Time is being rewritten all around us, every day. People think their memories are bad, but their memories are fine. The past is really like that." So, in my eyes, the Doctor is loom-born and womb-born and half-human and fully Time Lord and all of those things can exist simultaneously in the same continuity without being a problem for me. Well, look at it this way... What is your weapon in a temporal war? Time. A weapon that can be bent, spent, broken and warped however you choose. A peaceful society today could be turned into fascists yesterday, so tomorrow you have a willing army. Given the Doctor's importance to the universe at large, I'd be very surprised if his timeline didn't have scarring from that War.
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Post by sherlock on Dec 29, 2016 10:15:35 GMT
Here's a thought-so the big contradiction is the Doctor's references to having a father/mother and in turn him being one. Is it not possible he's just putting it in a human frame of reference, perhaps his mother and father figures were simply older members of his House meant to tutor him and essentially raise him as parent figures but without actually being his biological parents. This also explains Susan, perhaps he was her mentor and they simply became very close.
Also for being a child, perhaps Lungbarrow's just being poetic when it says they're born fully-grown. Maybe it simply means skipping being a baby, after all what do Time Lords mean by full grown?
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Post by constonks on Dec 29, 2016 15:13:01 GMT
He has been a parent, in any case - Miranda was his adopted daughter. But he's certainly treated Susan as a granddaughter - and the way they talk about Alex really makes him sound like he's biologically related to the Doctor in some way. As an aside, I think it's time for me to finally read Lungbarrow. I'm remembering how many discussions I've had about this book without ever having read it (my fiancee - who's only seen the TV show - mentioned looms of her own volition the other day and I realised how much babbling I'd done). Ages ago someone said I should read the Remembrance novelisation and Time's Crucible first (and I own copies of both of those) but I think I'm just gonna dive right in. EDIT: (...) My personal thought on it is that it's a contradiction on a cosmic level, rather than a narrative one. (...) Well, look at it this way... What is your weapon in a temporal war? Time. A weapon that can be bent, spent, broken and warped however you choose. A peaceful society today could be turned into fascists yesterday, so tomorrow you have a willing army. Given the Doctor's importance to the universe at large, I'd be very surprised if his timeline didn't have scarring from that War. And there's been more than one Time War. The Time Lords have faced the Enemy (EDAs), the Eminence (Dark Eyes), the Temporal Powers / the Pandora Crisis (Gallifrey series) and finally the Daleks (New Who). Not to mention all these little side-timelines (Sympathy for the Devil, Day of the Daleks, Colditz, A Death in the Family, et al.) where things change and change back and change again...
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aztec
Chancellery Guard
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Post by aztec on Dec 29, 2016 21:44:16 GMT
Various time wars or the same time war being rewritten or seen from different perspectives? I haven't read Lungbarrow and likely never will due to its rarity, but judging purely from what I've read on Wiki out of context, the looms sound like a really interesting idea that bring back some of the mystery of Ancient Gallifrey and The Doctor, removing them even further from humanity and reinforcing how alien and aloof they can be... on the other hand I'm not so convinced by the Cartmel Masterplan (or Caramel Marzipan as I prefer to call it) the idea of the Doctor {Spoiler}hinted at being a reincarnation of The Other -has the effect of making the Doctor much more of a legendary godlike figure in Gallifrey's history, when part of his charm is that he was an ordinary timelord rejecting Timelord society and looking out for the small people of the universe, as I see it the looms both add mystery and depth to his backstory and arguably cheapen some of his character development.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 29, 2016 23:21:16 GMT
He has been a parent, in any case - Miranda was his adopted daughter. But he's certainly treated Susan as a granddaughter - and the way they talk about Alex really makes him sound like he's biologically related to the Doctor in some way. As an aside, I think it's time for me to finally read Lungbarrow. I'm remembering how many discussions I've had about this book without ever having read it (my fiancee - who's only seen the TV show - mentioned looms of her own volition the other day and I realised how much babbling I'd done). Ages ago someone said I should read the Remembrance novelisation and Time's Crucible first (and I own copies of both of those) but I think I'm just gonna dive right in. It's how I first read it. Lungbarrow and Nightshade were the first two books that convinced me that I wanted to become a writer actually. And there's been more than one Time War. The Time Lords have faced the Enemy (EDAs), the Eminence (Dark Eyes), the Temporal Powers / the Pandora Crisis (Gallifrey series) and finally the Daleks (New Who). Not to mention all these little side-timelines (Sympathy for the Devil, Day of the Daleks, Colditz, A Death in the Family, et al.) where things change and change back and change again... That's not even counting the war with the Yssgaroth and their vampire thralls, the Charon who were retroactively erased from existence, the Order of the Black Sun who attempted to abort the Time Lords' rise to godhood... You can understand why the Time Lords may be a little paranoid about other races achieving their level of temporal understanding. It's not just envy, that first war with the vampires was so violent that it put them in shock for millennia. Various time wars or the same time war being rewritten or seen from different perspectives? I haven't read Lungbarrow and likely never will due to its rarity, but judging purely from what I've read on Wiki out of context, the looms sound like a really interesting idea that bring back some of the mystery of Ancient Gallifrey and The Doctor, removing them even further from humanity and reinforcing how alien and aloof they can be... on the other hand I'm not so convinced by the Cartmel Masterplan (or Caramel Marzipan as I prefer to call it) the idea of the Doctor hinted at being a reincarnation of The Other -has the effect of making the Doctor much more of a legendary godlike figure in Gallifrey's history, when part of his charm is that he was an ordinary timelord rejecting Timelord society and looking out for the small people of the universe, as I see it the looms both add mystery and depth to his backstory and arguably cheapen some of his character development. Personally, I prefer to look at it as "The Doctor is descended from a mythic figure and a renegade," rather than "The Doctor is descended from a mythic figure instead of being a renegade." After all, genes do not make the person. It doesn't diminish his own accomplishments over his own lifetimes.
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Post by newt5996 on Dec 30, 2016 20:26:03 GMT
He has been a parent, in any case - Miranda was his adopted daughter. But he's certainly treated Susan as a granddaughter - and the way they talk about Alex really makes him sound like he's biologically related to the Doctor in some way. As an aside, I think it's time for me to finally read Lungbarrow. I'm remembering how many discussions I've had about this book without ever having read it (my fiancee - who's only seen the TV show - mentioned looms of her own volition the other day and I realised how much babbling I'd done). Ages ago someone said I should read the Remembrance novelisation and Time's Crucible first (and I own copies of both of those) but I think I'm just gonna dive right in. It's how I first read it. Lungbarrow and Nightshade were the first two books that convinced me that I wanted to become a writer actually. And there's been more than one Time War. The Time Lords have faced the Enemy (EDAs), the Eminence (Dark Eyes), the Temporal Powers / the Pandora Crisis (Gallifrey series) and finally the Daleks (New Who). Not to mention all these little side-timelines (Sympathy for the Devil, Day of the Daleks, Colditz, A Death in the Family, et al.) where things change and change back and change again... That's not even counting the war with the Yssgaroth and their vampire thralls, the Charon who were retroactively erased from existence, the Order of the Black Sun who attempted to abort the Time Lords' rise to godhood... You can understand why the Time Lords may be a little paranoid about other races achieving their level of temporal understanding. It's not just envy, that first war with the vampires was so violent that it put them in shock for millennia. Various time wars or the same time war being rewritten or seen from different perspectives? I haven't read Lungbarrow and likely never will due to its rarity, but judging purely from what I've read on Wiki out of context, the looms sound like a really interesting idea that bring back some of the mystery of Ancient Gallifrey and The Doctor, removing them even further from humanity and reinforcing how alien and aloof they can be... on the other hand I'm not so convinced by the Cartmel Masterplan (or Caramel Marzipan as I prefer to call it) the idea of the Doctor hinted at being a reincarnation of The Other -has the effect of making the Doctor much more of a legendary godlike figure in Gallifrey's history, when part of his charm is that he was an ordinary timelord rejecting Timelord society and looking out for the small people of the universe, as I see it the looms both add mystery and depth to his backstory and arguably cheapen some of his character development. Personally, I prefer to look at it as "The Doctor is descended from a mythic figure and a renegade," rather than "The Doctor is descended from a mythic figure instead of being a renegade." After all, genes do not make the person. It doesn't diminish his own accomplishments over his own lifetimes. Chiming in quickly to say that the best bits of Lungbarrow are those that while fulfilling the Master Plan still are left ambiguous.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 31, 2016 0:25:16 GMT
Chiming in quickly to say that the best bits of Lungbarrow are those that while fulfilling the Master Plan still are left ambiguous. Mmm, which was the point really. It was to add mystery to the Doctor's character and you can't have an enigma without a little ambiguity. Contrast the Other theory with the Doctor is half-human in the TWM. One is left up in the air and follows Cold Fusion's example of there being enough room to deny or accept it, the other is dropped straight into the narrative with no ambiguity whatsoever. It's why I hold true to the idea that if you're going to mythologise nowadays, you have the answers yourself, but you give your audience plausible deniability in the more touchy aspects. Unless you want to make a meta joke, I suppose. It'd be easily done with the Sixth Doctor's many regenerations -- "His life was cut short before its time, but he lived well and to the fullest. He fought hard enough against the shackles of fate that it took more than one death to finally bring him down."
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Post by constonks on Dec 31, 2016 5:26:56 GMT
It's why I hold true to the idea that if you're going to mythologise nowadays, you have the answers yourself, but you give your audience plausible deniability in the more touchy aspects. Moffat's pulled that trick a couple times. Name/Time of the Doctor had "What's the Doctor's name?" "It's The Doctor - and that's all that counts" while Hell Bent tackled the half-human question with "Does it matter?"
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Post by Deleted on Dec 31, 2016 7:57:48 GMT
It's why I hold true to the idea that if you're going to mythologise nowadays, you have the answers yourself, but you give your audience plausible deniability in the more touchy aspects. Moffat's pulled that trick a couple times. Name/Time of the Doctor had "What's the Doctor's name?" "It's The Doctor - and that's all that counts" while Hell Bent tackled the half-human question with "Does it matter?" The Shrug of God as it is known. You can find it anywhere from Star Wars to Cowboy Bebop. Where do the humans come from? What is the ultimate fate of Spike? My favourite answer is almost always the one that allows a bit of autonomy on fans' parts. The truth, but not the whole truth and with the understanding that it's all subjective regardless. "What is the Doctor's name?" Well, it could be John Smith, the Ka Faraq Gatri, Theta Sigma, Qui Quae Quod, Doktor of TARDIS, the Sandman, Claudius Dark, Merlin, the Evergreen Man, Wormhole, Professor, Grandfather or simply just the Doctor. There's no particular right or wrong answer, it just depends on who you talk to.
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Post by sherlock on Dec 31, 2016 9:56:39 GMT
Moffat's pulled that trick a couple times. Name/Time of the Doctor had "What's the Doctor's name?" "It's The Doctor - and that's all that counts" while Hell Bent tackled the half-human question with "Does it matter?" The Shrug of God as it is known. You can find it anywhere from Star Wars to Cowboy Bebop. Where do the humans come from? What is the ultimate fate of Spike? My favourite answer is almost always the one that allows a bit of autonomy on fans' parts. The truth, but not the whole truth and with the understanding that it's all subjective regardless. "What is the Doctor's name?" Well, it could be John Smith, the Ka Faraq Gatri, Theta Sigma, Qui Quae Quod, Doktor of TARDIS, the Sandman, Claudius Dark, Merlin, the Evergreen Man, Wormhole, Professor, Grandfather or simply just the Doctor. There's no particular right or wrong answer, it just depends on who you talk to. Better to leave the answer amibiguous as the question is ultimately more interesting than the answer. It's much more interesting to leave his name and his reasons for hiding it amibiguous than to say reveal his name is Qwertyuiop.
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