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Post by newt5996 on Dec 7, 2016 5:23:51 GMT
So now I've gotten around to reading this one I don't see why it's a point of contention. In my eyes it's a brilliant book from Marc Platt which adds layers to the Doctor and sets up his death well, even if more adventures come after this point in the timeline.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2016 10:20:08 GMT
I am wholly with you, I think it's a marvellous book. *puts on helmet* Brace for impact.
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Post by whiskeybrewer on Dec 7, 2016 12:16:07 GMT
It has been a long while since i read it. Im actually gonna wait and read all the New Adventures books i have in order to lead up to it.
But from what I remember, i always loved the concept of the Looms and the way the concept of the Houses and family is laid out. And Now i always picture David Bowie as the Other.
I did speak to Wolfie about how to slightly tweak the working of the Looms to make them fit in Prime Continuity
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Post by mark687 on Dec 7, 2016 12:45:20 GMT
I can take or leave it I don't subscribe to Loom Born or House concepts though.
Regards
mark687
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Dec 7, 2016 14:20:49 GMT
So now I've gotten around to reading this one I don't see why it's a point of contention. In my eyes it's a brilliant book from Marc Platt which adds layers to the Doctor and sets up his death well, even if more adventures come after this point in the timeline. I don't think there's contention in people not wanting a Lungbarrow adaptation. The problem is it's kinda incompatible with what the series has said about Gallifrey and the Time Lods. In order to do Lungbarrow today, on NuWho or BF, would require cutting out a lot of parts, including the looms, the Doctor's weird house and his insane cousin-family. |
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Dec 7, 2016 14:21:43 GMT
In essence, it's the Catch 22 of Who books.
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Post by whiskeybrewer on Dec 7, 2016 16:40:56 GMT
Well since we've never actually seen inside any of the houses on screen whats to say that isnt the way.
The whole Cousin and Looms thing can be changed very easiely with very little effort, but thats just me
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Post by newt5996 on Dec 7, 2016 16:54:00 GMT
So now I've gotten around to reading this one I don't see why it's a point of contention. In my eyes it's a brilliant book from Marc Platt which adds layers to the Doctor and sets up his death well, even if more adventures come after this point in the timeline. I don't think there's contention in people not wanting a Lungbarrow adaptation. The problem is it's kinda incompatible with what the series has said about Gallifrey and the Time Lods. In order to do Lungbarrow today, on NuWho or BF, would require cutting out a lot of parts, including the looms, the Doctor's weird house and his insane cousin-family. But the implication at the end is that the curse is lifted. It could totally happen |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2016 22:39:31 GMT
I didn't like Lungbarrow!
For me all that Loom nonsense is just that, nonsense. So I found Lungbarrow to be a very poor Virgin NA book. But each to their own and all that...
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2016 22:43:33 GMT
I did speak to Wolfie about how to slightly tweak the working of the Looms to make them fit in Prime Continuity Yeah, we gave it a bit of thought and determined that even if the Time Lords are a sterile race, their stock of DNA still needs to come from somewhere. In theory, the Doctor may have spent a period of his very early childhood in the care of his "mother" and "father" (who provided the genetic material) before Quences took him back to Lungbarrow to fulfill his own agenda. A surrogacy after a fashion. That way, you can have the story of the Other, machine births and more traditional parenthood all in the same continuity. The potentially illegal nature surrounding the Doctor's birth may have even been why we (and he) know very little about his parents. |
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Post by Ela on Dec 8, 2016 3:16:50 GMT
I enjoyed the book, but I don't really buy the whole loom bit.
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Post by whiskeybrewer on Dec 8, 2016 12:18:50 GMT
I did speak to Wolfie about how to slightly tweak the working of the Looms to make them fit in Prime Continuity Yeah, we gave it a bit of thought and determined that even if the Time Lords are a sterile race, their stock of DNA still needs to come from somewhere. In theory, the Doctor may have spent a period of his very early childhood in the care of his "mother" and "father" (who provided the genetic material) before Quences took him back to Lungbarrow to fulfill his own agenda. A surrogacy after a fashion. That way, you can have the story of the Other, machine births and more traditional parenthood all in the same continuity. The potentially illegal nature surrounding the Doctor's birth may have even been why we (and he) know very little about his parents. Thats right. He's Loomed into a baby from the combined DNA of his parents. They care for him in his early years and such, which is why he remembers being born and being loomed. So in Listen, the couple are either his "birth" parents or they are Quences and another member of the house Ill go though our chat and see what we actually wrote lol |
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Post by whiskeybrewer on Dec 8, 2016 13:12:09 GMT
Here we go this was the converstaion myself and wolfie had about Looms in Lungbarrow, Edited of course as we had about 2 or 3 different threads going at the same time lol: whiskeybrewer: If i did a Who story that involved the Looms and i would alter it slightly by having the looms take DNA from the parents and then weave a baby inside it (so there's still a womb of sorts) Then after a certain amount of time, the baby is "born". So with the Doctor, during this process when he was being Loomed, The Other's biodata is added to his parents mix, which is why he's different in a sense to the rest of his family and because its a third mix, he somehow has The Other's memories in his subconscious. What do you think? wolfie53: That'd fit perfectly, I think that's a marvellous way of getting around the issue altogether.  I had a sneaking suspicion after reading The Gallifrey Chronicles and the like that the Doctor really did have parents, but not in the sense that human beings mean. After all, the looms had to get the genetic material from somewhere, even if the Gallifreyans were sterile. The Doctor may have spent a period of his very early childhood in the care of his natural born parents before coming under the thumb of Quences. That's really very clever. I've always thought it was a bit of a pity that the looms never really got a look in past Lungbarrow, even if Big Finish were willing to obliquely refer to the Great Houses with Romana visiting Heartshaven and that bit in Neverland where the Neverpeople identify the Time Lords' lineage. After that idea, the concept of the Time Lords being humdrum naturally born babies seemed kind of boring by comparison. whiskeybrewer: Sweet. If i ever adapted Lungbarrow, that is how I'd do it  Also that would work with Listen as the scene in the Barn could be after he looks into the Schism and they arent his parents in the barn they are Quences and they talk about other's in the House, those being his brother Brax, and his Cousins. It could work. It really could. wolfie53: Indeed it could. I always thought Listen was the Moffat era attempting to put its own stamp (and I do mean stamp) on Who mythology and it very nearly worked. I just found it was a bit unfocussed with Clara being the thing under the Doctor's bed and it all being part of their imaginations. whiskeybrewer: Yeah thats true. I think it would have been more interesting for it to have been the Doctor under the bed. But yeah there was alot thrown at the wall. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2016 2:40:17 GMT
Yeah, we gave it a bit of thought and determined that even if the Time Lords are a sterile race, their stock of DNA still needs to come from somewhere. In theory, the Doctor may have spent a period of his very early childhood in the care of his "mother" and "father" (who provided the genetic material) before Quences took him back to Lungbarrow to fulfill his own agenda. A surrogacy after a fashion. That way, you can have the story of the Other, machine births and more traditional parenthood all in the same continuity. The potentially illegal nature surrounding the Doctor's birth may have even been why we (and he) know very little about his parents. Thats right. He's Loomed into a baby from the combined DNA of his parents. They care for him in his early years and such, which is why he remembers being born and being loomed. So in Listen, the couple are either his "birth" parents or they are Quences and another member of the house Yeah, I'm altogether rather proud of that actually. We can call it Whiskey-Wolf loom theory.  |
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Post by whiskeybrewer on Dec 9, 2016 12:16:12 GMT
Thats right. He's Loomed into a baby from the combined DNA of his parents. They care for him in his early years and such, which is why he remembers being born and being loomed. So in Listen, the couple are either his "birth" parents or they are Quences and another member of the house Yeah, I'm altogether rather proud of that actually. We can call it Whiskey-Wolf loom theory. Patent Pending Patent Pending. We are watching all of you |
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Dec 9, 2016 13:53:31 GMT
Thats right. He's Loomed into a baby from the combined DNA of his parents. They care for him in his early years and such, which is why he remembers being born and being loomed. So in Listen, the couple are either his "birth" parents or they are Quences and another member of the house Yeah, I'm altogether rather proud of that actually. We can call it Whiskey-Wolf loom theory. You know what? I think you've sold it to me. |
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Post by fitzoliverj on Dec 9, 2016 18:57:57 GMT
I'm not sure why this novel is so hated. You do know that looms and all that actually emerged in earlier books, right? Though I agree it's all a bit bleak and Gormenghastly, and some of the plotlines - the Daleky bits - are a bit fanjodrelly.
Did the Other jump in to the Loom? Well, we don't actually know any of that for certain. The Doctor's apparent memory could be made up. His claim to have remembered being in the Loom is more reliable, but that could've been Ulysses chucking his and Penelope Gate's baby son into the system to disguise its origins.
The curse is lifted in this book, so any Time Lord babies subsequently fit. I'm not altogether sure that there is any direct evidence of Time Lord babies prior to that. Yes, "Lungbarrow" indicates that Time Lords emerge from the loom at adult size, but that might be an exaggeration or only apply to certain Houses. Some novels do talk about fathers and brothers and whatnot, but that may not be any more literal use of the terms than 'cousin'.
Timey-wimey stuff could've erased all this anyway and given the Doctor an alternative past (like in the BBC novels with the biodata story).
Edit: and remember that Gallifreyans are aliens. As Arnold Rimmer observes about the prospect of a creature from outer space going to the loo, "they probably do something weird and alienesque, like it comes out of the top of their heads or something".
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Post by xlozdob on Dec 10, 2016 23:42:49 GMT
Thats right. He's Loomed into a baby from the combined DNA of his parents. They care for him in his early years and such, which is why he remembers being born and being loomed. So in Listen, the couple are either his "birth" parents or they are Quences and another member of the house Yeah, I'm altogether rather proud of that actually. We can call it Whiskey-Wolf loom theory. I actually came up with a pretty similar theory some time ago, so I'm with you guys. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2016 1:51:44 GMT
Yeah, I'm altogether rather proud of that actually. We can call it Whiskey-Wolf loom theory. I actually came up with a pretty similar theory some time ago, so I'm with you guys. Sweet. The more the merrier.  |
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Post by whiskeybrewer on Dec 11, 2016 14:36:16 GMT
It shows how much it works then t do it that way |
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I had a sneaking suspicion after reading The Gallifrey Chronicles and the like that the Doctor really did have parents, but not in the sense that human beings mean. After all, the looms had to get the genetic material from somewhere, even if the Gallifreyans were sterile. The Doctor may have spent a period of his very early childhood in the care of his natural born parents before coming under the thumb of Quences.
Also that would work with Listen as the scene in the Barn could be after he looks into the Schism and they arent his parents in the barn they are Quences and they talk about other's in the House, those being his brother Brax, and his Cousins. It could work. It really could.
