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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2016 3:49:16 GMT
" Doctor Who gives the impression of having a huge amount of lore, but when you write it all down, you can’t fill a page." Phoa. Okay... Erm, I... Er... Um... *cough*... Okay, I know a lot of people have respect for Moffat and his tenure on the programme has brought them no small amount of joy, but I'm going to come out and say that statement right there is just bonkers. It kind of puts the story arcs and attempts at mythologising in perspective. I mean... I... I have no words. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2016 4:09:06 GMT
" Doctor Who gives the impression of having a huge amount of lore, but when you write it all down, you can’t fill a page." Phoa. Okay... Erm, I... Er... Um... *cough*... Okay, I know a lot of people have respect for Moffat and his tenure on the programme has brought them no small amount of joy, but I'm going to come out and say that statement right there is just bonkers. It kind of puts the story arcs and attempts at mythologising in perspective. I mean... I... I have no words. To read the rest of the interview though, he's talking specifically about his era, or broadly Nu-Who. And he's right - if you write down the amount of material that is directly about Bad Wolf, "Silence Will Fall", the hybrid etc, it's not much in terms of script space at all. It's small teases in mostly standalone adventures. I think Moffat knows just fine about the expanded lore of the show and spinoff media at large. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2016 4:22:30 GMT
Phoa. Okay... Erm, I... Er... Um... *cough*... Okay, I know a lot of people have respect for Moffat and his tenure on the programme has brought them no small amount of joy, but I'm going to come out and say that statement right there is just bonkers. It kind of puts the story arcs and attempts at mythologising in perspective. I mean... I... I have no words. To read the rest of the interview though, he's talking specifically about his era, or broadly Nu-Who. And he's right - if you write down the amount of material that is directly about Bad Wolf, "Silence Will Fall", the hybrid etc, it's not much in terms of script space at all. It's small teases in mostly standalone adventures. I think Moffat knows just fine about the expanded lore of the show and spinoff media at large. Very well said, just a quote mistaken out of context. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2016 4:36:53 GMT
To read the rest of the interview though, he's talking specifically about his era, or broadly Nu-Who. And he's right - if you write down the amount of material that is directly about Bad Wolf, "Silence Will Fall", the hybrid etc, it's not much in terms of script space at all. It's small teases in mostly standalone adventures. I think Moffat knows just fine about the expanded lore of the show and spinoff media at large. It'd be a bit naff of him to forget. He got started in the Virgin range writing a short story called Continuity Errors for Seven and Benny. Seeing as the interview is only 123 words long, methinks it's an easy mistake to make. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2016 6:44:16 GMT
I think this shows what I think the issue is with Moffat's run: he wants it to be an anthology series, but the BBC want it to have big gigantic story arcs. And then Moffat gets carried away with this and comes up with an idea, but not how the idea will conclude. I know a lot of people love Moffat's run, but I just percieve it as a bit of a letdown and it does way to many silly things, which paulmorris777 would happily list. I'm glad Moffat is leaving because I think he was in the position of showrunner at the wrong time and he, as well as his two Doctors, got thrown around way too much to make anything consistent.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2016 7:18:09 GMT
To read the rest of the interview though, he's talking specifically about his era, or broadly Nu-Who. And he's right - if you write down the amount of material that is directly about Bad Wolf, "Silence Will Fall", the hybrid etc, it's not much in terms of script space at all. It's small teases in mostly standalone adventures. I think Moffat knows just fine about the expanded lore of the show and spinoff media at large. It'd be a bit naff of him to forget. He got started in the Virgin range writing a short story called Continuity Errors for Seven and Benny. Seeing as the interview is only 123 words long, methinks it's an easy mistake to make. Nobody said he forgot. He's aiming his comments at the casual viewer of 21st century Who, to whom things like Virgin novels are irrelevant. And while the printed article may be 123 words, he could have spoken for 30 minutes and doesn't get to pick what ends up in the article. I have always felt Moffat was rubbish at big arcs, so this is good to hear, as hopefully we can be arc free now. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2016 7:26:39 GMT
I think this shows what I think the issue is with Moffat's run: he wants it to be an anthology series, but the BBC want it to have big gigantic story arcs. And then Moffat gets carried away with this and comes up with an idea, but not how the idea will conclude. I know a lot of people love Moffat's run, but I just percieve it as a bit of a letdown and it does way to many silly things, which paulmorris777 would happily list. I'm glad Moffat is leaving because I think he was in the position of showrunner at the wrong time and he, as well as his two Doctors, got thrown around way too much to make anything consistent. I've had a similar thought niggling at the back of my mind too, a case of what the showrunner wants to do and what the BBC hierarchy want him to do. Poor devil. You also have to remember that the majority of his television work prior to Doctor Who was Press Gang, Joking Apart, Chalk and Coupling, respectively. All sitcoms. Exceptional sitcoms ( Press Gang was always enormous fun), but still nevertheless sitcoms and the mentality behind that kind of show can and often has bled over into the making of the current programme. Doctor Who as a comedy is always going to be a divisive idea because comedy itself is so subjective (even more so than drama) and here's the thing -- I'm not laughing and if I'm not laughing, I'm paying attention to the drama and if the drama isn't leaving me satisfied... Then what's left? This isn't the failing of a single man (and from what I've heard a particularly nice man), but personally, I still feel it's a failing nonetheless. I want to be enjoying televised NuWho, I really do, but there hasn't been a whole lot going in its favour recently. I'm looking forward to the upcoming change. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2016 7:28:23 GMT
It'd be a bit naff of him to forget. He got started in the Virgin range writing a short story called Continuity Errors for Seven and Benny. Seeing as the interview is only 123 words long, methinks it's an easy mistake to make. Nobody said he forgot. He's aiming his comments at the casual viewer of 21st century Who, to whom things like Virgin novels are irrelevant. And while the printed article may be 123 words, he could have spoken for 30 minutes and doesn't get to pick what ends up in the article. I have always felt Moffat was rubbish at big arcs, so this is good to hear, as hopefully we can be arc free now. That was unnecessarily defensive. I did not say he forget. Am I not allowed to admit I make a mistake, @brians? |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2016 7:36:28 GMT
Nobody said he forgot. He's aiming his comments at the casual viewer of 21st century Who, to whom things like Virgin novels are irrelevant. And while the printed article may be 123 words, he could have spoken for 30 minutes and doesn't get to pick what ends up in the article. I have always felt Moffat was rubbish at big arcs, so this is good to hear, as hopefully we can be arc free now. That was unnecessarily defensive. I did not say he forget. Am I not allowed to admit I make a mistake, @brians? Sorry if it came across that way, it wasn't intended. I was just giving an alternative explanation for the statement. Fully agree with your other comments about Moffat. My favourite of his work is the Clara and Pink stuff in season 8 which just shows how good he can be at relational comedy. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2016 7:39:41 GMT
That was unnecessarily defensive. I did not say he forget. Am I not allowed to admit I make a mistake, @brians ? Sorry if it came across that way, it wasn't intended. I was just giving an alternative explanation for the statement. Fully agree with your other comments about Moffat. My favourite of his work is the Clara and Pink stuff in season 8 which just shows how good he can be at relational comedy. Oh, I'm sorry too. That was a misjudgement on my part. Yeah, it felt almost a little bit like a return to Spike and Linda from Press Gang. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2016 10:10:25 GMT
I don't read anything contentious in that interview, it's one man's opinion... Attachments:
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Post by sherlock on Dec 21, 2016 10:15:49 GMT
I think in that interview Moffat's talking about the lack of a mythos, not series-long arcs.
Fundamentally all Doctor Who's mythos is 'There's an alien who travels through time and space in a bigger-on-the-inside time machine and fighters monsters with a companion.' There are additional bits like he's from Gallifrey, the Time War, and previous companions but they aren't necessarily fundamental to understanding the show. Compare this to comics, where every character has a long history and if you want to understand current comics you need an understanding of that history, or other shows like Lost or X-Files where it's all one long mystery and you need the understanding of what has happened to really get what's going on.
Of course in spin-off media there is a wider mythos, but here I think he's just talking about the TV show which doesn't rely on that mythos.
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Post by dalekbuster523finish on Dec 21, 2016 11:04:05 GMT
X-Files where it's all one long mystery and you need the understanding of what has happened to really get what's going on. I don't think you do with X Files. I'd only watched one episode before I watched Series 10 but I understood everything fine. |
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Post by paulmorris7777 on Dec 21, 2016 11:49:09 GMT
I think in that interview Moffat's talking about the lack of a mythos, not series-long arcs. Fundamentally all Doctor Who's mythos is 'There's an alien who travels through time and space in a bigger-on-the-inside time machine and fighters monsters with a companion.' There are additional bits like he's from Gallifrey, the Time War, and previous companions but they aren't necessarily fundamental to understanding the show. Compare this to comics, where every character has a long history and if you want to understand current comics you need an understanding of that history, or other shows like Lost or X-Files where it's all one long mystery and you need the understanding of what has happened to really get what's going on. Of course in spin-off media there is a wider mythos, but here I think he's just talking about the TV show which doesn't rely on that mythos. But just look at the mythos Moffat has added during his tenure - 1 - Married several times (Continued from RTD) 2 - Clara in the Doctors time stream 3 - The Hybrid (two hearts ignored by RTD) 4 - Trenzalore 5 - The Doctors childhood 6 - TimeLord gender regeneration 7 - The War Doctor |
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Post by sherlock on Dec 21, 2016 12:24:44 GMT
I think in that interview Moffat's talking about the lack of a mythos, not series-long arcs. Fundamentally all Doctor Who's mythos is 'There's an alien who travels through time and space in a bigger-on-the-inside time machine and fighters monsters with a companion.' There are additional bits like he's from Gallifrey, the Time War, and previous companions but they aren't necessarily fundamental to understanding the show. Compare this to comics, where every character has a long history and if you want to understand current comics you need an understanding of that history, or other shows like Lost or X-Files where it's all one long mystery and you need the understanding of what has happened to really get what's going on. Of course in spin-off media there is a wider mythos, but here I think he's just talking about the TV show which doesn't rely on that mythos. But just look at the mythos Moffat has added during his tenure - 1 - Married several times (Continued from RTD) 2 - Clara in the Doctors time stream 3 - The Hybrid (two hearts ignored by RTD) 4 - Trenzalore 5 - The Doctors childhood 6 - TimeLord gender regeneration 7 - The War Doctor That's true, but I think Moffat's point is you don't have to know these things to understand what's going on if you decide to tune into a series completely blind. |
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Post by paulmorris7777 on Dec 21, 2016 12:30:49 GMT
But just look at the mythos Moffat has added during his tenure - 1 - Married several times (Continued from RTD) 2 - Clara in the Doctors time stream 3 - The Hybrid (two hearts ignored by RTD) 4 - Trenzalore 5 - The Doctors childhood 6 - TimeLord gender regeneration 7 - The War Doctor That's true, but I think Moffat's point is you don't have to know these things to understand what's going on if you decide to tune into a series completely blind. But, those are his story arcs! They clog up the individual stories! None of the above are necessary! |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2016 13:10:59 GMT
X-Files where it's all one long mystery and you need the understanding of what has happened to really get what's going on. I don't think you do with X Files. I'd only watched one episode before I watched Series 10 but I understood everything fine. Yeah, there's a sense of forward motion from the first season right up until Season 3's second episode Paper Clip, but after that point the myth arc tends to be a lot more lax. Your mileage may vary, but that was the point where the Chris Carter effect began to set in and I was more or less started watching it for the standalone episodes. Same good stuff, just a different focus. |
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Post by whiskeybrewer on Dec 21, 2016 13:19:55 GMT
I don't think you do with X Files. I'd only watched one episode before I watched Series 10 but I understood everything fine. Yeah, there's a sense of forward motion from the first season right up until Season 3's second episode Paper Clip, but after that point the myth arc tends to be a lot more lax. Your mileage may vary, but that was the point where the Chris Carter effect began to set in and I was more or less started watching it for the standalone episodes. Same good stuff, just a different focus. Interestingly thats because he wanted to end the show with Season 5 (he had an ending planned) and was then going to continue it as a movie franchise, but the Studios wanted more, so he gave it them, meaning he had to make the Arc plot up as he went along |
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Dec 21, 2016 14:39:33 GMT
I think this shows what I think the issue is with Moffat's run: he wants it to be an anthology series, but the BBC want it to have big gigantic story arcs. And then Moffat gets carried away with this and comes up with an idea, but not how the idea will conclude. I know a lot of people love Moffat's run, but I just percieve it as a bit of a letdown and it does way to many silly things, which paulmorris777 would happily list. I'm glad Moffat is leaving because I think he was in the position of showrunner at the wrong time and he, as well as his two Doctors, got thrown around way too much to make anything consistent. I've had a similar thought niggling at the back of my mind too, a case of what the showrunner wants to do and what the BBC hierarchy want him to do. Poor devil. You also have to remember that the majority of his television work prior to Doctor Who was Press Gang, Joking Apart, Chalk and Coupling, respectively. All sitcoms. Exceptional sitcoms ( Press Gang was always enormous fun), but still nevertheless sitcoms and the mentality behind that kind of show can and often has bled over into the making of the current programme. Doctor Who as a comedy is always going to be a divisive idea because comedy itself is so subjective (even more so than drama) and here's the thing -- I'm not laughing and if I'm not laughing, I'm paying attention to the drama and if the drama isn't leaving me satisfied... Then what's left? This isn't the failing of a single man (and from what I've heard a particularly nice man), but personally, I still feel it's a failing nonetheless. I want to be enjoying televised NuWho, I really do, but there hasn't been a whole lot going in its favour recently. I'm looking forward to the upcoming change. When even having Douglas Adams as a script editor can't resolve that divide of 'Should Who be funny', that really tells you something about the wild variety of interpretations of the show and what it should be. Some want the big arcs and mystery, others the exploration and adventure, and some big abstract wackiness. |
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Dec 21, 2016 14:57:26 GMT
Yeah, there's a sense of forward motion from the first season right up until Season 3's second episode Paper Clip, but after that point the myth arc tends to be a lot more lax. Your mileage may vary, but that was the point where the Chris Carter effect began to set in and I was more or less started watching it for the standalone episodes. Same good stuff, just a different focus. Interestingly thats because he wanted to end the show with Season 5 (he had an ending planned) and was then going to continue it as a movie franchise, but the Studios wanted more, so he gave it them, meaning he had to make the Arc plot up as he went along To tie that back into Moffat, it's at the end of S6 that you start to see cracks showing. Something must've happened behind the scenes, and perhaps reactions to S6 caused something of a crises for Moffat: either the complexity that had served him so well for so long finally tripped up with 'Wedding', or he had told his one big story, so what to do? Simplify the arcs through 7-9, to where it's even more tame than under Russell, and crank up the fan service to win back older fans who hadn't liked the previous direction, or wanted it to be more like Classic Who (how many of us remember post after post of older fans celebrating Capaldi because 'out with fangirls'). He kinda did something that Nick has been criticized for before with stuff like Krelos/Telos or the lesser Dalek stories: when the ambition doesn't hit the mark, go into fanboy mode as a kind of smokescreen. |
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