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Post by nucleusofswarm on Feb 6, 2017 15:05:52 GMT
Something from the old forums, but do we actually have any, even a rough idea, of the numbers Big Finish do, both sales and just customers?
I would imagine a rough estimate, considering the production expenses, licensing costs, copyright/residuals and staff salaries, would be 20,000-25,000. Any smaller, I can't imagine being financial viable, especially not when you get bigger licenses and actors like Tennant and Hurt involved.
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Post by Digi on Feb 6, 2017 15:23:53 GMT
According to their automated tweets, there are approximately 7000 using the app: Not sure whether that's combined or approximately 7000 on each version for a total of 14,000, but either way, that number only reflects those savvy enough to use phone apps. And of course there are those who prefer physical, and don't care for digital at all. They also say they have 44,000 'Facebook fans,': I have no idea what their actual numbers look like, and I really don't think it's any of our business (so long as they keep making stuff ), but those figures may help provide an estimate. You can probably add a fair few people who buy but are only interested in the product and not interested in participating fandom, but you can also probably subtract a decent number of people for various other reasons as well (former fans, occasional buyers, people more interested in a franchise than the company, etc.)
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Feb 6, 2017 15:32:08 GMT
You can probably add a fair few people who buy but are only interested in the product and not interested in participating fandom, but you can also probably subtract a decent number of people for various other reasons as well (former fans, occasional buyers, people more interested in a franchise than the company, etc.) Not to mention, having enough spare cash to fund more left field projects like Cicero. Also, Big Finish have never declared any release a million seller, which would be quite a feather in their cap if they had one, so we can also estimate lower than about 999,000. Furthermore, they don't have a platinum, gold etc. ranking system, so likely figures will be much, much lower than that. Possibly even less than 500,000.
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Post by mark687 on Feb 6, 2017 15:42:54 GMT
It'd be interesting to know if every range pays for itself or if popularity of DW ranges ensures the others get made.
Regards
mark687
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Post by coffeeaddict on Feb 6, 2017 15:52:50 GMT
Nick replied to a question of mine about 2000 AD either in the podcast or Vortex a few months saying that that particular range did not sell well. While this doesn't prove that the range didn't pay for itself, it does show that they will drop ranges which aren't profitable.
I think it was much the same for the books, also in response to a question of mine either in Vortex or the podcast, Nick stated that the Benny books were never huge sellers. I'm not sure if the B7 books had the same problem.
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Post by muckypup on Feb 6, 2017 16:18:32 GMT
Well I remember when dear old Paul spragg was about, he mentioned an initial order for main range was 5000 and most of them were still on the first run.
And considering that the limited editions were 10,000 reduced to 5000 later on and they have still not sold out I suspect that 2000 is need to be sold to break even & sell between 2500 & 3500 per title on physical releases, I think a similar amount digital as I think I remember nick saying they still we happy doing cd's as it sold about 2/3 cd's at that time.
Up till a few years ago they only had 3 permanent members of staff, I think that has grown somewhat but I don't think there will be more than 10 on the books as staff.
Despite the big titles they hold, they are a very small company, we are lucky that they have such a fantastic group of people to call on
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Post by jasonward on Feb 6, 2017 16:33:27 GMT
Big Finish's public accounts are wonderfully odd to look at, they still qualify as a small company (exempt) which means there is very little information to see in them. The one thing that does strike me as very odd, is that BF showed in their last accounts that they were owed £1.1m, but by whom I have no idea, having looked at BF's accounts over the years, the amount they are owed has always been on the very high side compared to their other numbers, and it makes me wonder if this high number represents some way in which BF manage their accounts to make sure there cash at hand is never very high, rather than being true trade debtors. BF Productions also have a large number of sister companies, and a number of subsidiaries, some of which are not UK based. For a small "exempt" company, their corporate structure seems complex, and I wish they were not exempt as it would probably make it easier to understand the setup. I'm not going to dig right through as much as I can discover this time rounds, I've done it in the past and learned nothing much, but if you can read company accounts, and fancy doing some googling and perhaps digging into Australian companies as well, start at Companies House and let us know if you find anything interesting or informative.
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Post by shallacatop on Feb 6, 2017 18:48:55 GMT
The official Doctor Who Magazine's average sales are, I believe, just over 25,000 copies an issue. I think it's safe to say that Big Finish probably don't typically hit anywhere near that on a regular release. I'd argue DWM is a niche and BF is certainly another niche within that.
I know that there are some limited edition sets that are numbered at 10,000, which was always baffled me, even for The Light at the End. The 5,000 for the Tenth Doctor set seemed more reasonable and even that has yet to sell out and it's only available through the BF site.
Obviously break even points differ depending on the financial logistics of assembling a range. So whilst the novel adaptations line was cancelled, something like Counter Measures keeps going because the cast must presumably cost a pittance compared to Tom Baker, Sylvester McCoy, etc. I struggle with the idea that a CM set sells better than, say, Damaged Goods, but the finances of producing them can have an impact on whether to carry on.
So whilst I don't know any specific sales figures, I don't think the releases sell anywhere near the average DWM figure.
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Feb 6, 2017 19:14:40 GMT
The official Doctor Who Magazine's average sales are, I believe, just over 25,000 copies an issue. I think it's safe to say that Big Finish probably don't typically hit anywhere near that on a regular release. I'd argue DWM is a niche and BF is certainly another niche within that. I know that there are some limited edition sets that are numbered at 10,000, which was always baffled me, even for The Light at the End. The 5,000 for the Tenth Doctor set seemed more reasonable and even that has yet to sell out and it's only available through the BF site. Obviously break even points differ depending on the financial logistics of assembling a range. So whilst the novel adaptations line was cancelled, something like Counter Measures keeps going because the cast must presumably cost a pittance compared to Tom Baker, Sylvester McCoy, etc. I struggle with the idea that a CM set sells better than, say, Damaged Goods, but the finances of producing them can have an impact on whether to carry on. So whilst I don't know any specific sales figures, I don't think the releases sell anywhere near the average DWM figure. Very good points here. I can't imagine the Beeb letting them have the license if they only shifted maybe under 5000 units. I'd say closer to 10, which also helps explain the limited sets.
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aztec
Chancellery Guard
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Post by aztec on Feb 6, 2017 20:31:36 GMT
Very interesting idea for a thread, it's worth remembering that Big Finish doesn't have any one type of customer, some may be newcomers only following one Doctor, some may have been with them from the beginning and purchase everything from every range, some may only buy things on sale or through secondary sources, (though I'd assume the majority will be somewhere in between) and many new customers were brought in the last few years by the New Who license.
I remember reading on GB once someone claimed to have been told at a convention Tom Baker was the biggest selling Doctor (surprise surprise) outnumbering McGann (who was second) by three to one, with Colin Sylvester and Peter following which sounds believable, they also claimed that CD's were still a majority of new sales, though judging by what I've seen online more and more people are getting into the downloads.
At a random guess I'd say anywhere from 8-25,000 physical sales for the main Dr Who releases and maybe a third of that for spinoffs.
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aztec
Chancellery Guard
Likes: 2,849
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Post by aztec on Feb 6, 2017 20:39:45 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2017 21:27:54 GMT
Comic book distribution figures usually come from Diamond, and they only cover physical copies of those comics sold in North America. Digital copies and European sales are generally not part of those figures.
I was told - by someone who should know - that sales of Titan's Four Doctors 'event' comics were around the 10,000 mark for each issue. Which might have included North America and European markets and/or Comixology sales. (I didn't ask the specifics as it didn't matter to me.) But with variant covers, one person - a collector - could be buying more than one copy of the same issue. So comic sales are not easy to quantify in those circumstances.
I doubt very much if any BF release gets anywhere near the circulation of DWM listed above. (25,000) But I'd love to be wrong, as it would be great!
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Post by jasonward on Feb 6, 2017 22:24:43 GMT
Comic book distribution figures usually come from Diamond, and they only cover physical copies of those comics sold in Norh America. Digital copies and European sales are generally not part of those figures. I was told - by someone who should know - that sales of Titan's Four Doctors 'event' comics were around the 10,000 mark for each issue. Which might have included North America and European markets and/or Comixology sales. (I didn't ask the specifics as it didn't matter to me.) But with variant covers, one person - a collector - could be buying more than one copy of the same issue. So comic sales are not easy to quantify in those circumstances. I doubt very much if any BF release gets anywhere near the circulation of DWM listed above. (25,000) But I'd love t be wrong, as it would be great! It's fairly easy to see the absolute maximum BF sales. Take the fact that they are an "exempt" company, which means they turn over less than £6.5m per year. They release it would seem an average of 10 releases per month. The average price (don't forget this includes boxsets) of around £20 per release. So 120 releases per year, making £20 per sale, would mean that they have to sell on average less than 2,710 per release. My guess of turnover based on the accounts, would be that they turn over between £2m and £4m per year, which would mean average sales per release somewhere between 833 and 1666. My further guess would be that Doctor Who are best sellers, so it could be that whilst a Who release sells 3,000 units, more niche products perhaps only 400. But I can't see any release being anywhere near the range of 25,000 units sold. If some one actually wants to count the actual number of BF releases last year, and the actual prices we could come up with more accurate figures, but the ceiling is fixed by that exempt rating.
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Post by shallacatop on Feb 6, 2017 22:37:01 GMT
I've just been doing the maths myself. Like you, I kept in mind that they can't make any more than about £6m a year, but halved that to £3m as an assumption. They have such a massive output, but only really have one massive licence with Doctor Who, certainly compared to the others.
The Doctor Who sales don't seem massively high at, probably, a few thousand each, but it's considerable compared to what the other licences must sell.
They obviously do well enough for Big Finish to keep making them! That said, it makes the numbers of the limited editions even more baffling! Nick Briggs did note in a Q&A over the weekend that they'd received a lot of customer resistance to them, which probably means they barely shifted any on average.
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Post by jasonward on Feb 6, 2017 22:44:00 GMT
They obviously do well enough for Big Finish to keep making them! That said, it makes the numbers of the limited editions even more baffling! Nick Briggs did note in a Q&A over the weekend that they'd received a lot of customer resistance to them, which probably means they barely shifted any on average. I think BF have become divorced from their core customer base, they have forgotten that their core customers are already collectors, committed fans, people who already buy every release they can, in that context limited editions are a smack in the face of their core customers.
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Feb 6, 2017 22:50:37 GMT
I doubt very much if any BF release gets anywhere near the circulation of DWM listed above. (25,000) But I'd love t be wrong, as it would be great! It's fairly easy to see the absolute maximum BF sales. Take the fact that they are an "exempt" company, which means they turn over less than £6.5m per year. They release it would seem an average of 10 releases per month. The average price (don't forget this includes boxsets) of around £20 per release. So 120 releases per year, making £20 per sale, would mean that they have to sell on average less than 2,710 per release. My guess of turnover based on the accounts, would be that they turn over between £2m and £4m per year, which would mean average sales per release somewhere between 833 and 1666. My further guess would be that Doctor Who are best sellers, so it could be that whilst a Who release sells 3,000 units, more niche products perhaps only 400. But I can't see any release being anywhere near the range of 25,000 units sold. If some one actually wants to count the actual number of BF releases last year, and the actual prices we could come up with more accurate figures, but the ceiling is fixed by that exempt rating. And then one must also consider subscriptions vs individual purchases, discount sales, international vs domestic purchases and stock sold to other places like Amazon and specialty stores.
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Post by jasonward on Feb 6, 2017 22:56:21 GMT
And then one must also consider subscriptions vs individual purchases, discount sales, international vs domestic purchases and stock sold to other places like Amazon and specialty stores. I'd say you probably don't need to do this, why? Because that's even more speculative than the speculations those speculations would be based on, and given that we can only give a speculative range of sales numbers, I'm not sure that those finer details would narrow anything.
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Post by muckypup on Feb 6, 2017 23:07:49 GMT
Lets face it, they make this stuff because they love it as much as we do.
No one is getting rich here, they just tick along nicely.
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Post by ulyssessarcher on Feb 7, 2017 7:21:12 GMT
Now this is a great topic for a thread.
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Feb 7, 2017 13:09:57 GMT
And then one must also consider subscriptions vs individual purchases, discount sales, international vs domestic purchases and stock sold to other places like Amazon and specialty stores. I'd say you probably don't need to do this, why? Because that's even more speculative than the speculations those speculations would be based on, and given that we can only give a speculative range of sales numbers, I'm not sure that those finer details would narrow anything. See, I would argue you could, because it helps gauge said possible numbers better and have a stronger idea of 'okay, this is what the situation could be etc etc etc'. From my esitmates, I imagine an axed range dips below the 1000 mark. I can't imagine Dark Shadows or Dorian or a lot of the Classics doing less business than that, and I certainly imagine the Who ranges doing circa 2000 and a little up, given they are the bread and butter of the company, and that they would have to have a worthwhile number to be worthy of the attention of BBC Radio and the various awards they've been up.
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