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Post by nucleusofswarm on Mar 25, 2017 0:25:09 GMT
Yes, yes, praising Holmes' work is hardly a new concept, but there is a slightly different angle to take with him: did he sell himself short? Was Holmes too much of a hired gun for other projects, and did not have enough of a creative voice outside of Who, hence why he never achieved the same level of mainstream respect as other other Who writers like Adams, Baker and Read? Was he a better tinkerer than creator, as his friend Roger Marshall put it?
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shutupbanks
Castellan
There’s a horror movie called Alien? That’s really offensive. No wonder everyone keeps invading you.
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Post by shutupbanks on Mar 25, 2017 2:49:57 GMT
As I remember, Mr Holmes tried repeatedly to get his own ideas on the air but didn't have much success. However he was a much-admired script editor and author of other people's shows, which really isn't that bad a career to follow. He received praise for much of his work and was a well-established writer for years before he started work on Doctor Who as well as afterwards: Doctor Who represents a large but by no means definitive slice of his work.
He created some great one-off characters but was probably more skilled at working in established settings rather than creating his own: his original works amount to just a small section of his CV, but to be remembered as a freelance writer and an editor is no bad thing. He may have wanted to have achieve more but he left a wide, varied and significant body of work.
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Post by Timelord007 on Mar 25, 2017 8:23:44 GMT
My favourite writer for the series, sure he wrote a couple of clunkers but he also wrote some of the shows best stories like Talons Of Weng Chiang & Caves Of Androzani.
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Post by lidar on Mar 25, 2017 8:30:53 GMT
Yes, yes, praising Holmes' work is hardly a new concept, but there is a slightly different angle to take with him: did he sell himself short? Was Holmes too much of a hired gun for other projects, and did not have enough of a creative voice outside of Who, hence why he never achieved the same level of mainstream respect as other other Who writers like Adams, Baker and Read? Was he a better tinkerer than creator, as his friend Roger Marshall put it? Changing the subject slighty "better tinkerer than creator" could be applied to Terrance Dicks, more so than to Holmes (imho) |
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Mar 25, 2017 9:15:52 GMT
Yes, yes, praising Holmes' work is hardly a new concept, but there is a slightly different angle to take with him: did he sell himself short? Was Holmes too much of a hired gun for other projects, and did not have enough of a creative voice outside of Who, hence why he never achieved the same level of mainstream respect as other other Who writers like Adams, Baker and Read? Was he a better tinkerer than creator, as his friend Roger Marshall put it? Changing the subject slighty "better tinkerer than creator" could be applied to Terrance Dicks, more so than to Holmes (imho) In some ways, but Dicks had a greater body of original work than Holmes, who only had a draft of the film 'Invasion'. Bear in mind, that comment is not intended as besmirching, it's just acknowledging facts. |
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Post by paulmorris7777 on Mar 25, 2017 9:35:59 GMT
He did write the brilliant Nightmare Man!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2017 10:05:21 GMT
He did write the brilliant Nightmare Man! Sadly not, that's an adaptation of a novel called Child of Vodyanoi written by David Wiltshire. I was surprised to learn that he'd written an episode of The Saint though. On the strength of his novelisation for The Two Doctors alone, I would love to have seen him try his hand at writing a couple independent science fiction novellas. That would have been an exciting find. It's a shame, but Bob Holmes seems to occupy the same sort of niche that writers like David Whitaker typically do. They wrote for what we know them for and little else beyond. Malcolm Hulke at least contributed the originative Pathfinders series and a couple excellent episodes of The Avengers. |
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Post by paulmorris7777 on Mar 25, 2017 10:34:30 GMT
He did write the brilliant Nightmare Man! Sadly not, that's an adaptation of a novel called Child of Vodyanoi written by David Wiltshire. I was surprised to learn that he'd written an episode of The Saint though. On the strength of his novelisation for The Two Doctors alone, I would love to have seen him try his hand at writing a couple independent science fiction novellas. That would have been an exciting find. It's a shame, but Bob Holmes seems to occupy the same sort of niche that writers like David Whitaker typically do. They wrote for what we know them for and little else beyond. Malcolm Hulke at least contributed the originative Pathfinders series and a couple excellent episodes of The Avengers. He did write the tv script! |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2017 11:09:42 GMT
Sadly not, that's an adaptation of a novel called Child of Vodyanoi written by David Wiltshire. I was surprised to learn that he'd written an episode of The Saint though. On the strength of his novelisation for The Two Doctors alone, I would love to have seen him try his hand at writing a couple independent science fiction novellas. That would have been an exciting find. It's a shame, but Bob Holmes seems to occupy the same sort of niche that writers like David Whitaker typically do. They wrote for what we know them for and little else beyond. Malcolm Hulke at least contributed the originative Pathfinders series and a couple excellent episodes of The Avengers. He did write the tv script! True, but I'm talking about wholly original works here. I wonder what they would have looked like? His influences were all over the place, Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?, Dune, Phantom of the Opera, The Manchurian Candidate, House of Wax, Fu Manchu, James Bond, etc. |
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Post by mark687 on Mar 25, 2017 11:44:39 GMT
By all accounts he was humble and quite modest and just got on with it, apart from the story of Terrance Dicks giving him the requirements for the Time Warrior and him letting out several expletives and then just getting on with it as per, and his failed revenge on Dicks with the requirements for Fang Rock.
And his overall contribution to TV of the time was fairly large but like all TV shows fans are going to focus in production detail on the ones the really like.
Regards
mark687
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Mar 25, 2017 13:39:20 GMT
Sadly not, that's an adaptation of a novel called Child of Vodyanoi written by David Wiltshire. I was surprised to learn that he'd written an episode of The Saint though. On the strength of his novelisation for The Two Doctors alone, I would love to have seen him try his hand at writing a couple independent science fiction novellas. That would have been an exciting find. It's a shame, but Bob Holmes seems to occupy the same sort of niche that writers like David Whitaker typically do. They wrote for what we know them for and little else beyond. Malcolm Hulke at least contributed the originative Pathfinders series and a couple excellent episodes of The Avengers. He did write the tv script! Someone else's idea. Doesn't count as an original work. That's like saying Misery belongs to Bill Goldman, not Stephen King. |
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Post by escalus5 on Mar 25, 2017 15:25:37 GMT
Yes, yes, praising Holmes' work is hardly a new concept, but there is a slightly different angle to take with him: did he sell himself short? No. |
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Post by paulmorris7777 on Mar 25, 2017 16:43:14 GMT
Yes, yes, praising Holmes' work is hardly a new concept, but there is a slightly different angle to take with him: did he sell himself short? No. Perhaps, there were so many good writers at the time that he didn't have the arena to show his ability. I mean, look away now, Moffat and Gatiss have so much power its ridiculous! And, they show so little talent for the space they are given. |
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Mar 25, 2017 17:59:56 GMT
Perhaps, there were so many good writers at the time that he didn't have the arena to show his ability. I mean, look away now, Moffat and Gatiss have so much power its ridiculous! And, they show so little talent for the space they are given. I have no interest in reigniting an old powder keg and derailing the thread, so I'll say this: the television landscape changes, but restrictions and more powerful individuals remain, no matter how successful you are. |
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Post by paulmorris7777 on Mar 25, 2017 18:10:54 GMT
Perhaps, there were so many good writers at the time that he didn't have the arena to show his ability. I mean, look away now, Moffat and Gatiss have so much power its ridiculous! And, they show so little talent for the space they are given. I have no interest in reigniting an old powder keg and derailing the thread, so I'll say this: the television landscape changes, but restrictions and more powerful individuals remain, no matter how successful you are. Contradiction? |
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Mar 25, 2017 19:20:25 GMT
I have no interest in reigniting an old powder keg and derailing the thread, so I'll say this: the television landscape changes, but restrictions and more powerful individuals remain, no matter how successful you are. Contradiction? More things change, the more they stay the same. Any working screenwriter will be more than happy to make that particular detail blindingly clear. |
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Post by escalus5 on Jun 2, 2017 20:29:26 GMT
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Post by number13 on Jun 2, 2017 23:15:50 GMT
And look at the opening sequence of 'Quatermass 2: Enemy from Space'. Those sentient meteorites do get around don't they?  |
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Post by number13 on Jun 2, 2017 23:27:22 GMT
Robert Holmes was not only (in my opinion) the best writer in the history of televised 'Doctor Who' (to date) he was also a prolific writer for many, many other serials (mostly not science fiction) and also originated numerous projects which did not reach production for one reason or another. I would highly recommend Richard Molesworth's excellent and comprehensive book: Robert Holmes: A Life In WordsFor me he will always mean 'Doctor Who' at its very best: Autons waiting in the shop windows, Li’Hsen Chang scheming in Victorian London, Sutekh glaring green rays from behind his mask and Sharaz Jek raging for vengeance in a cave on Androzani Minor. And always, somehow, the Doctor (and good) wins through. He created the Nestenes, the Sontarans, Morbius, Karn and the Sisterhood and Jago & Litefoot. (And the Krotons, oh well. They looked better on paper. ) He introduced us to and gave shape to the Third Doctor, Liz Shaw, Jo Grant, Mike Yates, Sarah Jane Smith, Romana, the Master and the Valeyard, gave the Time Lords two hearts and twelve regenerations, named their planet Gallifrey, created the Matrix and (I think) Rassilon. Not a bad legacy. A very great writer whose influence (too often unacknowledged) still underpins 'Doctor Who' to this day. |
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