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Post by acousticwolf on Mar 31, 2017 9:45:45 GMT
It's probably a bit early for a Philosophical discussion but ... The more I listen to, read and watch Doctor Who, the more I find myself troubled by the Doctor. Time and again it seems he throws himself into a situation with no thought of the consequences for his companions or anyone else. Ok I guess having the ability to regenerate gives you a different outlook on death, but what about those around him? He is an alien, so we cannot really humanise him but he does spend an awful lot of time around humans, so perhaps we can … Who is he, what motivates his actions? - Is he a god-like hero (the Timelord Victorious), travelling the universe righting wrongs.
- Is he an anti-hero, a flawed traveller who just wants to experience life and who is controlled by forces around him (the TARDIS), ending up in the wrong place at the wrong time and trying to do his best?
- Is he in fact a maverick (like the Monk) whose reckless and irresponsible attitude leads the people around him into dangerous situations and death while he carries on regardless?
- Is he just a madman with a box?
- Or is he all of them and more …?
Discuss …
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2017 10:26:37 GMT
He's the traveller who went native. He takes great care of his companions where he can, but he's often faced with a universe which doesn't give a damn what he thinks. Ian and Barbara forced their way aboard the TARDIS, the events on Androzani occurred because Peri slipped, he was exiled to Earth because he just happened to arrive on the planet of the War Games. The alternative would be for him to disconnect and simply live the rest of his days aboard his ship, but that wouldn't be a life. He is a wanderer and a scientist with an insatiable curiosity about the cosmos who seeks to understand the existence he dwells within. Aside from a few exceptions, his companions are aboard the TARDIS by choice and are there under the proviso that they know what precisely they're letting themselves in for. His moral code compels him to assist where he can and he tries to leave every world better than when he found it. He may not succeed, but he nevertheless tries.
There've been a lot of differing interpretations over the years. I reckon you'd be a fool to underestimate him and treat him as simply a madman with a box. He is a murderer, he is a healer. He is a destroyer, he is a nurturer. He has scarred entire continents and planted the first new flower in once barren soil. He walks in shadows and basks in light. His intentions are always honourable, even when the grey of the worlds swamps him and some days he seems to be worse than the creatures he's fighting against. He is the sum of over a dozen lifetimes of knowledge, wisdom, triumphs and tragedies. He is a natural force of the cosmos. An elemental bourne out from time.
He is the Doctor.
"Ancient, like stillness, like coming snow... Like breaking ice on the rivers in spring. Like the lighting after thunder or fields after rain... And the oldest forests under the dark fir trees... Almost unearthly."
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2017 13:40:42 GMT
I prefer the old man with a box, just trying to help where he can but mostly just adventuring around the cosmos. It's the only description that fits all the incarnations of The Doctor. If you go too far from that interpretation you can end up in some seriously smug places as the VNAs and New Who have done. I don't mind when a mythos has built up aroud him, but prefer when that's from other planets and cultures, I don't like him joining in the ego-trip so much as Tennant's Doctor as written by RTD tended to do. Moffat, to me, nails it. The Doctor just does his thing and leaves, he may become a legend to those left behind (like A Good Man Goes To War, or hey, TImelash) but it's not him acting as some messianic force. When the show goes too far that way it can often be unbearable. No TImelor Victiorious cry-fests for me - give me Matt Smith spending his last days fixing kid's toys and going to puppet shows any day.
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Post by sherlock on Mar 31, 2017 14:00:04 GMT
The Doctor believes himself to be just a old man in a box who helps out where he can, and that's the belief he acts on.
To the universe at large he does appear a great and powerful, mysterious being, it's all perspective. The core of the character to me is though he appears to the universe this mythological figure, he's not intending to be and doesn't really want to be. It's part of the reason I struggle with his characterisation in Virgin NAs, where he's going round acting as a one man crusade against evil. The New Series tends to walk something of a fine line, with him only really using titles such as 'Oncoming Storm' and all that when he needs to intimate his way out of situations (such as scaring off the Atraxi, the Pandorica, holding his own own against the Daleks in Parting of the Ways), and indeed Series 6 went out of its way to show the dangers when he starts to believe his own legend (that's the whole point of A Good Man Goes To War) as did The Waters of Mars with the 'Time Lord Victorious'.
So to put it simply the Doctor appears to your average Joe as an ancient, unknowable being ('fire and strom at the heart of the universe') but really all he wants to be is a madman in a box helping out where he can ('...and he's wonderful').
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2017 14:01:17 GMT
I think he is all those things, and many more besides. He is indefinable. The First Doctor (in my view), is the best example of this - a mass of contradictions: frail, strong, brave, disinterested, understanding, tetchy, intellectually brilliant, scatty, hero, anti-hero.
He is at his best, in my view, as the random traveller, who - perhaps because of the TARDIS' own 'agenda', as has been suggetsed in 'The Doctor's Wife' - gets involved in something unpleasant, does what he thinks is right to correct events, and then quietly slips away ("I hate goodbyes"). I love it to bits when it is suggested his interference has only opened up a whole new lot of problems (the end of 'Vengeance on Varos', for example, when he has helped cut off the Varosians only distraction from the horror of their lives, is air-punchingly good). The idea that his fellow Gallifreyans' assertion that he 'shouldn't interfere' is somewhat justified places the Doctor right in the middle of many 'Have I the Right?' situations. I love that kind of moral dilemma, anything but clear-cut, and open to the viewers to make up their own minds.
I like it when he does dark things. In 'Into the Dalek', when someone asked if their colleague had been reduced to liquid as they stand in a huge puddle, the Doctor replies 'Yes. He's the top layer if you want to say a few words.' An absolutely brilliant moment, defining at once Peter Capaldi as The Doctor for me. He says things and acts in a way that 'mere humans' - especially good guys - wouldn't dream of saying.
Only the self-conscious, cocky and assured Timelord Victorious concept falls flat with me.
As long as the Doctor keeps doing/saying the unexpected and not always getting it right, the longer I'll keep watching.
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Post by Ela on Mar 31, 2017 14:22:51 GMT
The Doctor believes himself to be just a old man in a box who helps out where he can, and that's the belief he acts on. To the universe at large he does appear a great and powerful, mysterious being, it's all perspective. The core of the character to me is though he appears to the universe this mythological figure, he's not intending to be and doesn't really want to be. It's part of the reason I struggle with his characterisation in Virgin NAs, where he's going round acting as a one man crusade against evil. The New Series tends to walk something of a fine line, with him only really using titles such as 'Oncoming Storm' and all that when he needs to intimate his way out of situations (such as scaring off the Atraxi, the Pandorica, holding his own own against the Daleks in Parting of the Ways), and indeed Series 6 went out of its way to show the dangers when he starts to believe his own legend (that's the whole point of A Good Man Goes To War) as did The Waters of Mars with the 'Time Lord Victorious'. So to put it simply the Doctor appears to your average Joe as an ancient, unknowable being ('fire and strom at the heart of the universe') but really all he wants to be is a madman in a box helping out where he can ('...and he's wonderful'). Actually, I think the characterization of the Seventh Doctor in the Virgin NAs is consistent with the direction the television character was going before the show was cancelled.
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Post by sherlock on Mar 31, 2017 14:31:33 GMT
The Doctor believes himself to be just a old man in a box who helps out where he can, and that's the belief he acts on. To the universe at large he does appear a great and powerful, mysterious being, it's all perspective. The core of the character to me is though he appears to the universe this mythological figure, he's not intending to be and doesn't really want to be. It's part of the reason I struggle with his characterisation in Virgin NAs, where he's going round acting as a one man crusade against evil. The New Series tends to walk something of a fine line, with him only really using titles such as 'Oncoming Storm' and all that when he needs to intimate his way out of situations (such as scaring off the Atraxi, the Pandorica, holding his own own against the Daleks in Parting of the Ways), and indeed Series 6 went out of its way to show the dangers when he starts to believe his own legend (that's the whole point of A Good Man Goes To War) as did The Waters of Mars with the 'Time Lord Victorious'. So to put it simply the Doctor appears to your average Joe as an ancient, unknowable being ('fire and strom at the heart of the universe') but really all he wants to be is a madman in a box helping out where he can ('...and he's wonderful'). Actually, I think the characterization of the Seventh Doctor in the Virgin NAs is consistent with the direction the television character was going before the show was cancelled. I accept its a logical continuation, but it's still a continuation I have issues with. I find Big Finish's interpretation a nice middle area, he's still manipulative and has a tendency to see the bigger picture over individuals' feelings but it's not quite NA Doctor who seems almost entirely focused on the bigger picture at times.
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Post by Ela on Mar 31, 2017 14:52:13 GMT
Actually, I think the characterization of the Seventh Doctor in the Virgin NAs is consistent with the direction the television character was going before the show was cancelled. I accept its a logical continuation, but it's still a continuation I have issues with. I find Big Finish's interpretation a nice middle area, he's still manipulative and has a tendency to see the bigger picture over individuals' feelings but it's not quite NA Doctor who seems almost entirely focused on the bigger picture at times. Fair point.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2017 23:58:54 GMT
Actually, I think the characterization of the Seventh Doctor in the Virgin NAs is consistent with the direction the television character was going before the show was cancelled. I accept its a logical continuation, but it's still a continuation I have issues with. I find Big Finish's interpretation a nice middle area, he's still manipulative and has a tendency to see the bigger picture over individuals' feelings but it's not quite NA Doctor who seems almost entirely focused on the bigger picture at times. I rather enjoyed the character arc it offered him, fluctuating between the two aspects. He eventually comes full circle in The Room with No Doors, which shows how far that this Doctor and the others have gone to try and protect others from harm: And they bury him. Because he was told he'd die in an accident and Chris believes that this was the moment, but that isn't the end of him. Oh, no... He claws his way out of his own grave leading to this scene: That's the Doctor at his best, I think. Challenging evil and injustice however much it may wound him personally to dabble and interfere. Because despite everything he's seen on his travels, the poor devil still cares about us. He hasn't given up and that's wonderful.
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Post by sherlock on Apr 1, 2017 11:28:13 GMT
I accept its a logical continuation, but it's still a continuation I have issues with. I find Big Finish's interpretation a nice middle area, he's still manipulative and has a tendency to see the bigger picture over individuals' feelings but it's not quite NA Doctor who seems almost entirely focused on the bigger picture at times. I rather enjoyed the character arc it offered him, fluctuating between the two aspects. He eventually comes full circle in The Room with No Doors, which shows how far that this Doctor and the others have gone to try and protect others from harm: And they bury him. Because he was told he'd die in an accident and Chris believes that this was the moment, but that isn't the end of him. Oh, no... He claws his way out of his own grave leading to this scene: That's the Doctor at his best, I think. Challenging evil and injustice however much it may wound him personally to dabble and interfere. Because despite everything he's seen on his travels, the poor devil still cares about us. He hasn't given up and that's wonderful. I do like that aspect of the arc, but I do feel they went too far at times during his darker phase. But that's just me, and I freely admit I haven't fully read the NA arcs (before my time, and bloody expensive to catch up on).
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2017 12:05:45 GMT
I rather enjoyed the character arc it offered him, fluctuating between the two aspects. He eventually comes full circle in The Room with No Doors, which shows how far that this Doctor and the others have gone to try and protect others from harm: And they bury him. Because he was told he'd die in an accident and Chris believes that this was the moment, but that isn't the end of him. Oh, no... He claws his way out of his own grave leading to this scene: That's the Doctor at his best, I think. Challenging evil and injustice however much it may wound him personally to dabble and interfere. Because despite everything he's seen on his travels, the poor devil still cares about us. He hasn't given up and that's wonderful. I do like that aspect of the arc, but I do feel they went too far at times during his darker phase. But that's just me, and I freely admit I haven't fully read the NA arcs (before my time, and bloody expensive to catch up on). Oh, god, I'm still waiting for a physical copy of The Also People that isn't over $60 AUD. I managed to get The Dying Days as a present from a friend and it wasn't cheap. It's understandable though, there's a lot of him to see over those 70+ books ranging from the inscrutable force of nature in things like Warlock to the deeply human old man who's broken and frightened of dying in So Vile a Sin. He's probably one of the most complete incarnations we see in terms of range, we see both his vulnerability and his indomitability. Within the same range, we have a six-part Pertwee-style romp in Shakedown, a beautiful character study in Human Nature, a giddy comedy in Sky Pirates! and a dark existential horror in Falls the Shadow. The universe of the New Adventures isn't an easy one. Cold Fusion is a good example, there are no true villains as such. Not even the Ferutu. They're all just people and unfortunately, that just makes things so much harder. Consequently, when a genuine bad guy comes along, they're truly nasty little creatures like Joachim Wolff, Guzzman or the Yssgaroth. It's an interpretation of the Whoniverse where there the universe is nothing but shades of grey. It gets... messy.
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Nov 19, 2017 0:44:43 GMT
I think, in light of all the changes, this is a discussion worht bumping up.
To sort of offer an offshoot, I feel the Doctor tends to be a reflection of the values and a 'want' of the times. For example, 4 was very much counterculture, a bohemian, anti-establishment, or 6 was a violent anti-hero for the macho, manly-man 80s. In the case of 10, I feel part of the runaway success of his era, in particular the female response, was down to him tapping into the now-exploited vein of an archetype I term as 'the magical boyfriend': you're a teenage girl in the mid-late 2000s with not the greatest position in society financially, in terms of opinion (this was the height of the 'happy slap yobo' era) and limited prospects of a dead-end retail job.
Suddenly, you've got this heroic, super-smart, funny hot guy come in and sweep you off to a world far removed from your own. Having a slew of companions from the same background to act as your avatars, and there you go. This was just as the Potter books and films were entering the teen phase, so feelings of course changed towards Harry, Ron and Malfoy, as well as other media such as Twilight (Edward Cullen) or the anime & manga boom (magical BFs are a genre unto themselves, with properties like Diabolik Lovers, Blue Exorcist and the most famous example, Black Butler).
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Post by themeddlingmonk on Nov 19, 2017 11:49:11 GMT
As simple as this and I don’t know why people are always so wrong when trying to describe what the Doctor is. The simple fact of the matter is that he is the very definition of a Gallifreyan Buccaneer.
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Post by number13 on Nov 19, 2017 14:21:06 GMT
I think the answer is very simple and the following description from forty years and eight incarnations ago still applies. In the words of Terrance Dicks and Malcolm Hulke, two legends of the classic era who knew what makes the Doctor and 'Doctor Who' if anyone ever did:
'... impulsive, idealistic, ready to risk his life for a worthy cause... hates tyranny and oppression... He never gives in, and he never gives up...' 'The Doctor believes in good and fights evil. Though often caught up in violent situations, he is a man of peace. He is never cruel or cowardly.' 'In fact, to put it simply, the Doctor is a hero. These days there aren't so many of them around...'
(The Making of Doctor Who, 1976)
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