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Post by dalekbuster523finish on Apr 27, 2017 14:43:17 GMT
This is very true. Strangely, I had no real problem with how Rose treated Mickey, because he was, at first, played as someone who was appealingly silly. Also, Rose was hugely appealing in a way that Amy wasn't (to me, at any rate). I like characters who are real too, but I found Amy so ... I don't know, smug? Abrasive? I found these traits heightened in such a way that she became unreal to me. She seemed to be written as a companion that lacked any of the sense of wonder, or appreciation of travelling with The Doctor that Rose did, or that Bill does now. I think that phrase is the best way to describe Clara Oswald. She was never convincing as a companion or real person, her "friendship" with the Doctor and her "romance" with the thing called Danny Pink was very artificial or forced (there was more chemistry with Ashildr in a few seconds than two years with them) and its perfection is very unrealistic, even a Disney princess is more human than Clara. She is like a Lisa Simpson or a Mara Wilson, a very perfect smart girl who pretends to be an adult. And, worst of all, for two years she and Danny Bored tried to convince you that traveling in the TARDIS is not the great thing or impressive. Amy is very passionate and enthusiastic about traveling in the TARDIS with the Doctor and Rory, it was as family vacation trip as it should be. I disagree. I know people like Clara in real life. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2017 14:54:26 GMT
This is very true. Strangely, I had no real problem with how Rose treated Mickey, because he was, at first, played as someone who was appealingly silly. Also, Rose was hugely appealing in a way that Amy wasn't (to me, at any rate). I like characters who are real too, but I found Amy so ... I don't know, smug? Abrasive? I found these traits heightened in such a way that she became unreal to me. She seemed to be written as a companion that lacked any of the sense of wonder, or appreciation of travelling with The Doctor that Rose did, or that Bill does now. I think that phrase is the best way to describe Clara Oswald. She was never convincing as a companion or real person, her "friendship" with the Doctor and her "romance" with the thing called Danny Pink was very artificial or forced (there was more chemistry with Ashildr in a few seconds than two years with them) and its perfection is very unrealistic, even a Disney princess is more human than Clara. She is like a Lisa Simpson or a Mara Wilson, a very perfect smart girl who pretends to be an adult. And, worst of all, for two years she and Danny Bored tried to convince you that traveling in the TARDIS is not the great thing or impressive. Amy is very passionate and enthusiastic about traveling in the TARDIS with the Doctor and Rory, it was as family vacation trip as it should be. I think what you say is very reasonable, but its drifting into personal opinion (as all post are, of course)! Some may not agree that the romance between Clara and Danny is forced or artificial. But I do take your point about Clara lacking much of a sense of wonder regarding the Doctor. This is in the way she was written, I think, more so than Amy. Clara didn't have a traditional 'beginning' to her adventures - the first time we meet her, she's one of the 'splinters' that ends up inside a Dalek, the poor beggar! So in effect, she has got to know the Doctor before we get to know her, and I think that is what gave her a disadvatage in terms of relatability (if that is even a word). I think the decision to write an 'interesting' companion misfired from that point of view (this is why Bill is such a breath of fresh air. If Clara had been more of a traditional companion, I don't think Bill would be so effective, comparatively). And yet Amy, who had the benefit of a tremendous back-story, still emerged as someone I really wouln't want to know! |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2017 18:13:09 GMT
Emm... Rory died and turned to dust in front of her when she said that in tears and anger, and it is very understandable that. Turning her anger and vitriol on the person who had tried to save him, as I remember. Pointing the finger at the wrong person, again. Yes, it was her grief speaking, and understandable to some extent. But it is hardly an isolated example of her superficial hostility. Absolutely genuine and realistic way to react. People in grief and shock do lash out inappropriately. You're right thpugh that it's only one example and I think people are overlooking tue elephant in tue room here. Scotland. Amy was shaped primarily by how Moffat portrays the Scottish. Even in the most recent episode he did it again, making a joke of the scottish trying to declare independence from every planet they settled on. |
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Post by barnabaslives on Apr 27, 2017 20:05:09 GMT
This is very true. Strangely, I had no real problem with how Rose treated Mickey, because he was, at first, played as someone who was appealingly silly. Also, Rose was hugely appealing in a way that Amy wasn't (to me, at any rate). I like characters who are real too, but I found Amy so ... I don't know, smug? Abrasive? I found these traits heightened in such a way that she became unreal to me. She seemed to be written as a companion that lacked any of the sense of wonder, or appreciation of travelling with The Doctor that Rose did, or that Bill does now. I think that phrase is the best way to describe Clara Oswald. She was never convincing as a companion or real person, her "friendship" with the Doctor and her "romance" with the thing called Danny Pink was very artificial or forced (there was more chemistry with Ashildr in a few seconds than two years with them) and its perfection is very unrealistic, even a Disney princess is more human than Clara. She is like a Lisa Simpson or a Mara Wilson, a very perfect smart girl who pretends to be an adult. And, worst of all, for two years she and Danny Bored tried to convince you that traveling in the TARDIS is not the great thing or impressive. Amy is very passionate and enthusiastic about traveling in the TARDIS with the Doctor and Rory, it was as family vacation trip as it should be. I don't know if I would go quite that far, but I think I generally agree that would be a better description of Clara. I get the sense with Clara that she quickly become bored and jaded in an unhealthy way, maybe even one that's compromised the quality of her relationship with Danny (which I really liked although it felt a bit wooden, and maybe that is the explanation for that). She's ended up seeming to me like a spoiled rich girl whose daddy owns a TARDIS (I don't know how many times it felt like she thinks The Doctor is her chauffeur), and in spite of the insensitive exits that have been afforded to numerous companions, I really like to think that companions end up better off for knowing the Doctor, rather than worse. It's very understandably human for Clara to go in that direction, but I don't find it particularly appealing, which is kind of sad since otherwise I probably think Clara is a remarkable companion. I think for me the most gratifying exit for Clara might have been for her sense of wonder to finally kick in at the last moment, and it talks her our of staying with The Doctor when it suddenly hits her all at once what amazing things she's already been through. Amy I think of, I guess, as understandably not always that well settled within herself, with maybe her last-minute pass at The Doctor for example being her way of expressing wedding jitters. I prefer to have Rory around with Amy - I joke that it's because The Doctor and Amy need a chaperone, but I think of Amy as often just seeming more at peace with herself when Rory's around. That's very pleasing that Rory seems to be good for Amy that way. I'd be thrilled for Karen to work for Big Finish but better still to have Arthur also involved, in my opinion. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2017 1:06:55 GMT
I'm wondering did Moffat confuse Psychologists with Psychiatrists, which a lot of people do because they think they're the same thing, especially when it gets addressed in a single scene. Having four psychologists while extreme is still understandable, having four psychiatrists is another thing entirely. It could very easily have been an error, but since it's part of the programme now, maybe we'll just take it as writ. The character herself should know the difference between the two. Four psychologists over twelve years... Yeah, I can see it. Unreasonable child who isn't gelling with whomever it is treating her. Four psychiatrists is a bit worrying though, I think Amy would have something of a persecution complex by the end. |
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Post by mrperson on Apr 28, 2017 16:43:36 GMT
I think that phrase is the best way to describe Clara Oswald. She was never convincing as a companion or real person, her "friendship" with the Doctor and her "romance" with the thing called Danny Pink was very artificial or forced (there was more chemistry with Ashildr in a few seconds than two years with them) and its perfection is very unrealistic, even a Disney princess is more human than Clara. She is like a Lisa Simpson or a Mara Wilson, a very perfect smart girl who pretends to be an adult. And, worst of all, for two years she and Danny Bored tried to convince you that traveling in the TARDIS is not the great thing or impressive. Amy is very passionate and enthusiastic about traveling in the TARDIS with the Doctor and Rory, it was as family vacation trip as it should be. I think what you say is very reasonable, but its drifting into personal opinion (as all post are, of course)! Some may not agree that the romance between Clara and Danny is forced or artificial. But I do take your point about Clara lacking much of a sense of wonder regarding the Doctor. This is in the way she was written, I think, more so than Amy. Clara didn't have a traditional 'beginning' to her adventures - the first time we meet her, she's one of the 'splinters' that ends up inside a Dalek, the poor beggar! So in effect, she has got to know the Doctor before we get to know her, and I think that is what gave her a disadvatage in terms of relatability (if that is even a word). I think the decision to write an 'interesting' companion misfired from that point of view (this is why Bill is such a breath of fresh air. If Clara had been more of a traditional companion, I don't think Bill would be so effective, comparatively). And yet Amy, who had the benefit of a tremendous back-story, still emerged as someone I really wouln't want to know! I would have vastly preferred if there was none of this splinters-in-timestreams nonsense, and it turned out more simply: that the Doctor - maybe not even 11 - eventually does meet a normal and normally-written human Clara, has adventures, and she eventually exits...... .....on the ship that crashed earlier on the Asylum. You could have a sort of Earthshock-like moment without mimicking it, in which the Doctor realizes the ship she just left on is unwittingly headed right there but knows he can't do anything because he already met Dalek-Clara. |
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Post by mrperson on Apr 28, 2017 16:48:26 GMT
Turning her anger and vitriol on the person who had tried to save him, as I remember. Pointing the finger at the wrong person, again. Yes, it was her grief speaking, and understandable to some extent. But it is hardly an isolated example of her superficial hostility. Absolutely genuine and realistic way to react. People in grief and shock do lash out inappropriately. You're right thpugh that it's only one example and I think people are overlooking tue elephant in tue room here. Scotland. Amy was shaped primarily by how Moffat portrays the Scottish. Even in the most recent episode he did it again, making a joke of the scottish trying to declare independence from every planet they settled on. " I'm Scottish, now I can complain properly" or something like that - 12 |
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Post by dalekbuster523finish on Apr 28, 2017 19:09:13 GMT
I think what you say is very reasonable, but its drifting into personal opinion (as all post are, of course)! Some may not agree that the romance between Clara and Danny is forced or artificial. But I do take your point about Clara lacking much of a sense of wonder regarding the Doctor. This is in the way she was written, I think, more so than Amy. Clara didn't have a traditional 'beginning' to her adventures - the first time we meet her, she's one of the 'splinters' that ends up inside a Dalek, the poor beggar! So in effect, she has got to know the Doctor before we get to know her, and I think that is what gave her a disadvatage in terms of relatability (if that is even a word). I think the decision to write an 'interesting' companion misfired from that point of view (this is why Bill is such a breath of fresh air. If Clara had been more of a traditional companion, I don't think Bill would be so effective, comparatively). And yet Amy, who had the benefit of a tremendous back-story, still emerged as someone I really wouln't want to know! I would have vastly preferred if there was none of this splinters-in-timestreams nonsense, and it turned out more simply: that the Doctor - maybe not even 11 - eventually does meet a normal and normally-written human Clara, has adventures, and she eventually exits...... .....on the ship that crashed earlier on the Asylum. You could have a sort of Earthshock-like moment without mimicking it, in which the Doctor realizes the ship she just left on is unwittingly headed right there but knows he can't do anything because he already met Dalek-Clara. That would have been interesting, but how would you explain Victorian Clara? |
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Post by Audio Watchdog on Apr 28, 2017 20:57:00 GMT
The problem with Clara was the total inconsistency of her character. She was really three walking plot devices. Her first series with Matt Smith she was The Impossible Girl. Her first series with Peter Capaldi she was The Modern Woman who wanted it all. Career, love & adventure. Her second series she was Thrill Junkie. Not being able to process her grief over losing Danny Pink and also wanting to be The Doctor. I don't find any fault with what Jenna Coleman did with what was asked of her. The problem wasn't with the performance end, it was with the intention & execution on a script level. I'd be happy to see what BF could do with the character of Clara but it is something I could wait for. Audios with 11, Amy & Rory I would love to have yesterday.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2017 21:11:43 GMT
It's a shame BF can't afford Maisie Williams.
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Post by dalekbuster523finish on Apr 28, 2017 22:58:01 GMT
The problem with Clara was the total inconsistency of her character. She was really three walking plot devices. Her first series with Matt Smith she was The Impossible Girl. Her first series with Peter Capaldi she was The Modern Woman who wanted it all. Career, love & adventure. Her second series she was Thrill Junkie. Not being able to process her grief over losing Danny Pink and also wanting to be The Doctor. I don't find any fault with what Jenna Coleman did with what was asked of her. The problem wasn't with the performance end, it was with the intention & execution on a script level. I'd be happy to see what BF could do with the character of Clara but it is something I could wait for. Audios with 11, Amy & Rory I would love to have yesterday. I don't think that's fair. It was all natural and motivated by character. In her first series The Doctor directly influenced her into believing herself to be more invincible than she is by referring to her as The Impossible Girl. This leads to her throwing herself down The Doctor's timestream, her first reckless act. In Series 8 The Doctor leaves her on the moon to decide whether or not to destroy It, having learnt that the moon is an egg. This forces Clara into having the ability to make independent and rash decisions away from The Doctor, leading to her adopting the title of 'The Doctor' for the first time in Flatline (where she even finds herself her own companion in Rigsy). Having become independent from The Doctor and gained the confidence to go by his name, she turns against him in Dark Water/Death In Heaven in an attempt to save her boyfriend Danny's life. This all leads naturally into Series 9, where she becomes even more like The Doctor by gaining the authority he has with UNIT and adopting some of his personality quirks (The Magician' s Apprentice/The Witch's Familiar). By the time we get to Face The Raven, the process is complete. Face The Raven is basically Clara Doctor's regeneration story with Hell Bent as her post-regeneration one. By the end of the latter she even has her own TARDIS! Clara's character arc is much more consistent than people give it credit for. It's basically the tale of The Doctor being a bad influence for his companion, and Clara's three series form a standard three act structure for how The Doctor influences her actions over time. I thought it was an interesting take on The Doctor and companion relationship and I hope Big Finish get to explore it further one day. |
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Post by Audio Watchdog on Apr 28, 2017 23:23:12 GMT
Nope. Not buying it.
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Post by sherlock on Apr 29, 2017 1:00:56 GMT
I don't think that's fair. It was all natural and motivated by character. In her first series The Doctor directly influenced her into believing herself to be more invincible than she is by referring to her as The Impossible Girl. This leads to her throwing herself down The Doctor's timestream, her first reckless act. In Series 8 The Doctor leaves her on the moon to decide whether or not to destroy It, having learnt that the moon is an egg. This forces Clara into having the ability to make independent and rash decisions away from The Doctor, leading to her adopting the title of 'The Doctor' for the first time in Flatline (where she even finds herself her own companion in Rigsy). Having become independent from The Doctor and gained the confidence to go by his name, she turns against him in Dark Water/Death In Heaven in an attempt to save her boyfriend Danny's life. This all leads naturally into Series 9, where she becomes even more like The Doctor by gaining the authority he has with UNIT and adopting some of his personality quirks (The Magician' s Apprentice/The Witch's Familiar). By the time we get to Face The Raven, the process is complete. Face The Raven is basically Clara Doctor's regeneration story with Hell Bent as her post-regeneration one. By the end of the latter she even has her own TARDIS! Clara's character arc is much more consistent than people give it credit for. It's basically the tale of The Doctor being a bad influence for his companion, and Clara's three series form a standard three act structure for how The Doctor influences her actions over time. I thought it was an interesting take on The Doctor and companion relationship and I hope Big Finish get to explore it further one day. There are some jumps in Clara's character though (not huge ones, but still jumps) where the plot requires them, not naturally shown in the series. In Series 7 she and her relationship with the Doctor does not change, the focus of the series is entirely on the mystery around her not her character, the closest we get in terms of development is their near falling-out in Journey to the Centre of the TARDIS, which is then wiped out. Then in Nightmare in Silver we jump to her being uber-confident (to the point she orders round the military) and utterly faithful in the Doctor and then in Name of the Doctor she and the Doctor are close enough to the point she's willing to die for him (which is for all she knows what jumping into his timestream we'll do). Most of her subsequent relationship with Danny is off-screen (we see their first date in Listen and then by The Caretaker they've been dating for seemingly months) so we kinda miss any development there too. As a character she doesn't really change, after an initial wobble in Deep Breath she's remains completely self-assured as she was at the end of Series 7, aside from the blip in Kill the Moon/Mummy, and then in Flatline we get her becoming a stand-in for the Doctor, which broadly fits with what's come before. Series 9's meant to be the big one in development but here it kind of slips. In Magician's Apprentice she is basically shown as the Doctor-lite, but then in Witch's Familiar is utterly naive with dealing with Missy. We're not shown her becoming more reckless either, save one moment in Girl Who Died there's no mention of her supposed recklessness til Face the Raven. This isn't really harmful to the character overall though. I don't mind her being overconfident, I never found her irritating, and I really liked how they ended her character off in Face the Raven and the Doctor's grief was dealt with really well in Heaven Sent.
And then Hell Bent happened, the plot was jettisoned halfway for yet more farewells with Clara (we'd had three goodbyes by this point) and the Doctor seemed to have forgotten the acceptance of her fate he'd gained in Heaven Sent. Add to that the Doctor outright shooting someone over her as well. Just...frustrating. Face the Raven had given her a good ending, she did not need to come back for another goodbye.
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Post by sherlock on Apr 29, 2017 1:06:03 GMT
Anyway to get back to topic. If Big Finish could get Karen Gillan back, that would be great. I think it's unlikely right now, but maybe somewhere down the line it'll happen.
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Post by elkawho on Apr 29, 2017 1:21:46 GMT
It's a shame BF can't afford Maisie Williams. Nah. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2017 4:07:15 GMT
I think what you say is very reasonable, but its drifting into personal opinion (as all post are, of course)! Some may not agree that the romance between Clara and Danny is forced or artificial. But I do take your point about Clara lacking much of a sense of wonder regarding the Doctor. This is in the way she was written, I think, more so than Amy. Clara didn't have a traditional 'beginning' to her adventures - the first time we meet her, she's one of the 'splinters' that ends up inside a Dalek, the poor beggar! So in effect, she has got to know the Doctor before we get to know her, and I think that is what gave her a disadvatage in terms of relatability (if that is even a word). I think the decision to write an 'interesting' companion misfired from that point of view (this is why Bill is such a breath of fresh air. If Clara had been more of a traditional companion, I don't think Bill would be so effective, comparatively). And yet Amy, who had the benefit of a tremendous back-story, still emerged as someone I really wouln't want to know! I would have vastly preferred if there was none of this splinters-in-timestreams nonsense, and it turned out more simply: that the Doctor - maybe not even 11 - eventually does meet a normal and normally-written human Clara, has adventures, and she eventually exits...... .....on the ship that crashed earlier on the Asylum. You could have a sort of Earthshock-like moment without mimicking it, in which the Doctor realizes the ship she just left on is unwittingly headed right there but knows he can't do anything because he already met Dalek-Clara. See, that's where I thought it was going originally, except the Doctor is wholly aware of it and Clara partly so. He talks himself into letting her go and completing the loop and Clara battles her own suspicions weighed up against the responsibilities she now has aboard the Alaska. Eventually, both make the decision separately at the same time not to change history. The Doctor doesn't pull the materialisation switch to go back and Clara deliberately smashes the space-time telegraph he gave her. Great ending. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2017 6:11:22 GMT
It's a shame BF can't afford Maisie Williams. While I didn't hate her performance as much on a recent second viewing, her voice is an absolute monotone. Just as Kate Stewart is the worst thing about the UNIT sets for the same reason, Maisie would really drag down any story that featured her. |
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Post by dalekbuster523finish on Apr 29, 2017 8:59:10 GMT
Anyway to get back to topic. If Big Finish could get Karen Gillan back, that would be great. I think it's unlikely right now, but maybe somewhere down the line it'll happen. Yeah, she's becoming such a big name in film that it's hard to imagine she would have a gap in her schedule to record Big Finish. It would be nice though. |
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Post by mrperson on Apr 29, 2017 15:10:28 GMT
I would have vastly preferred if there was none of this splinters-in-timestreams nonsense, and it turned out more simply: that the Doctor - maybe not even 11 - eventually does meet a normal and normally-written human Clara, has adventures, and she eventually exits...... .....on the ship that crashed earlier on the Asylum. You could have a sort of Earthshock-like moment without mimicking it, in which the Doctor realizes the ship she just left on is unwittingly headed right there but knows he can't do anything because he already met Dalek-Clara. That would have been interesting, but how would you explain Victorian Clara? I wouldn't have had Victorian Clara or any splinters, is the point. |
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Post by MayoTango131 on May 1, 2017 21:22:00 GMT
I would have vastly preferred if there was none of this splinters-in-timestreams nonsense, and it turned out more simply: that the Doctor - maybe not even 11 - eventually does meet a normal and normally-written human Clara, has adventures, and she eventually exits...... .....on the ship that crashed earlier on the Asylum. You could have a sort of Earthshock-like moment without mimicking it, in which the Doctor realizes the ship she just left on is unwittingly headed right there but knows he can't do anything because he already met Dalek-Clara. To quote that Glenn Quagmire told Brian the dog: The worst thing about Clara is that she ... is ... so ... BORING! The "splinters-in-timestreams" was the only interesting thing about her and her only contribution in the series, the rest of the time she was a rich spoiled girl who get bored quickly or scolding the Doctor for anything. She's normal, but that does not help if she's is not interesting or funny. She is the modern Lisa Simpson of the series. |
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