bobod
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Post by bobod on Jun 29, 2017 9:09:49 GMT
Not to deny Moffat agency, but RTD, for all the good he did, has a lot to answer for there. Of the four longterm companions under his watch, only Martha left of her own accord and without a lot of sound and fury. Jack died and came back to life, only to be abandoned on Satellite 9; Rose was trapped in a parallel dimension; and Donna had her mind wiped. You might count Mickey, as he is something of an edge-case, but his time aboard the TARDIS amounted to a mere two stories, and he was always more of a supporting character. So it's not surprising that Moffat, who has stated that he couldn't have run the show if Davies hadn't laid the groundwork, continued the whole "You are the most important woman in the universe! Really! Truly! Not like the other ones!"-nonsense. That said, RTD was better at it. Donna and Rose's departures both had dramatic weight, in a way that the ill-defined temporal jiggery-pokery that befell the Ponds didn't. I disagree. Personally I found Amy and Rory's exit much, much sadder than Rose or Donna's (not to say their exits weren't sad). I loved all three and found all three emotional.
I win.
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bobod
Chancellery Guard
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Post by bobod on Jun 29, 2017 9:11:59 GMT
I really liked the Pond's exit. It was nice that the cause of their departure was just a cruel, tiny twist of fate rather than a part of an effort to save the universe. Donna had to become the Doctor/Donna to save the day, and her fate was sealed. Rose had to pull the lever to seal the void, and her fate was sealed. Yet Amy and Rory had finished their adventure, the day was saved already. A wicked, sudden addendum to the story saw them lost forever and the suddenness of it added to the tragedy - it was (I'm sorry) blink and you'll miss it. Not poignant, not drawn out. No time for big farewells - sad for what it wasn't as much as for what it was. Yup. I loved their exit. And didn't have any problem with the 'they don't travel with him any more but he keeps turning up' aspect. And then Brian tells them to stop trying to be grown up and just go off and enjoy it... and it all goes wrong and he never sees them again. Brilliant!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2017 10:11:48 GMT
I can't think how his return could have been better written or played to be honest. I've even mixed feelings about his return being kept as a surprise (if such a thing were possible these days). I think knowing he's returning is better - throughout World Enough and Time I was wondering when he was going to put in an appearance, not knowing that he he already had. It had the opposite effect on me. I knew Simm was coming at the end of the season so I recognized him despite the (really very good) make up. I was almost certain it was Simm's Master and when he did the line about Bill's heart, which was subtle and which she didn't seem to notice at all, I knew it was exactly the kind of mocking, hiding right under your nose comment that the Master would relish in. I don't know if I would have noticed these things or not if I didn't know Simm was returning, but I definitely noticed them because his return had been spoiled. See I enjoyed it even more on second watching, when I knew it was him. That's because Bill is gradually getting to like him and I know it's going to end badly and I'm screaming "don't trust him" at the telly. Edit: took me a while to find a post about World Enough and Time in this thread. We seem to be getting bleedover from a different conversation coming through. It reminds me of that time Norton talked over the opening of Rose (ducks)
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Post by christmastrenzalore on Jun 29, 2017 14:53:04 GMT
I wasn't that keen on Angels Take Manhattan, but I thought their departure in the final scene was well done. It was a little tangled in the yo-yo companion diminishing returns on departure, though no-where near to the degree that Clara's eventual exit was.
It would be refreshing if more companions just left on good terms quietly. I don't know why they feel the need to lock down the ending for them.
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Post by kimalysong on Jun 29, 2017 15:08:56 GMT
Same I also enjoyed Amy & Rory's departure it had a nice tinge of bitter-sweetness to it. I would have liked Clara's as well. I like the idea of her traveling with Ashildr. I just didn't like the whole cop out "death" thing.
I wasn't as fond of RTD"s companion endings. Hated both Rose and Donna's. I did really like Martha's though.
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Post by fingersmash on Jun 29, 2017 15:26:35 GMT
Same I also enjoyed Amy & Rory's departure it had a nice tinge of bitter-sweetness to it. I would have liked Clara's as well. I like the idea of her traveling with Ashildr. I just didn't like the whole cop out "death" thing. I wasn't as fond of RTD"s companion endings. Hated both Rose and Donna's. I did really like Martha's though. My biggest issue with modern Who is that companions almost never get to leave on their own terms. In eight companions, we've had ONE that left of their own free will. Like traveling with the Doctor is something that they want to do for the rest of their life. I'm tired of that. I want a companion who has fun but at the end of their run calls it a day because they know they can't do this forever. Maybe we'll get that from Chibnall. Hopefully.
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Post by christmastrenzalore on Jun 29, 2017 15:38:37 GMT
Same I also enjoyed Amy & Rory's departure it had a nice tinge of bitter-sweetness to it. I would have liked Clara's as well. I like the idea of her traveling with Ashildr. I just didn't like the whole cop out "death" thing. I wasn't as fond of RTD"s companion endings. Hated both Rose and Donna's. I did really like Martha's though. My biggest issue with modern Who is that companions almost never get to leave on their own terms. In eight companions, we've had ONE that left of their own free will. Like traveling with the Doctor is something that they want to do for the rest of their life. I'm tired of that. I want a companion who has fun but at the end of their run calls it a day because they know they can't do this forever. Maybe we'll get that from Chibnall. Hopefully. The New Series has a lot more focus on delving into the psychology of how travelling with the Doctor alters people; in some ways for the better, in others for the worse. In Davies era it culminated in Davros's take down of the Doctor aboard the Crucible, as all his former friends were threatening to blow everything up for the greater good. In Moffat's it was Clara's fall into the addiction of putting your life on the line and the reckless detached behaviour it caused. It get's to the point where they almost have to be forced to leave. Perhaps they should veer off that train of thought.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2017 1:44:14 GMT
My biggest issue with modern Who is that companions almost never get to leave on their own terms. In eight companions, we've had ONE that left of their own free will. Like traveling with the Doctor is something that they want to do for the rest of their life. I'm tired of that. I want a companion who has fun but at the end of their run calls it a day because they know they can't do this forever. Maybe we'll get that from Chibnall. Hopefully. The New Series has a lot more focus on delving into the psychology of how travelling with the Doctor alters people; in some ways for the better, in others for the worse. In Davies era it culminated in Davros's take down of the Doctor aboard the Crucible, as all his former friends were threatening to blow everything up for the greater good. In Moffat's it was Clara's fall into the addiction of putting your life on the line and the reckless detached behaviour it caused. It get's to the point where they almost have to be forced to leave. Perhaps they should veer off that train of thought. Well, it's Series 10, if we look back at what the classic series was doing with its tenth season... It was The Three Doctors, Frontier in Space and The Green Death. Far and away from An Unearthly Child, Marco Polo and The Aztecs. Just over a decade, it's a very long time. We should've changed a lot in the interim. I enjoyed the Davies era, but I don't think we should be sticking to those tropes anymore. It's a different world now than it was then, expectations have changed drastically and not just with companions either. I think... It would be an interesting change if we got a departure in the similar vein as Nyssa from Terminus: And boom. That's the companion gone on their own terms.
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Post by sherlock on Jul 2, 2017 15:52:00 GMT
A week of dodging spoilers like the plague was well worth it. Cyber conversion made creepy again and timey-wimey stuff used creatively again.
Only thing is, given how the episode was structured why did they put Simm in the series trailer?! It was clearly built up as a surprise but because they had announced it it was downright obvious.
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Post by Ela on Jul 6, 2017 5:09:02 GMT
I have to admit I didn't figure out it was Simm under that disguise, even though I knew he was returning.
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