The TV Movie vs Rose

Here goes; another unpopular opinion... (I don't try to be a contrarian, honest)

Personally I hated 'Rose' more than the TVM. I remember the nervous excitement, yeah the Doctor had a boring and un-Doctorish costume (it has grown on me) but the show seems to be going for a dark series turn so that is okay; yes, the Dalek that was leaked was an ugly colour but at least the shape was good and much like the design from the Cushing movie;I'd give it a chance.
So I sat watching and just as Rose was entering the cellar what did I see? The Graham Norton show; it was like an omen for the rest of the series, but I kept watching.
After the Norton invasion we came to the Doctor blowing up a building and then scenes reminiscent of Eastenders shortly after; this was sort of like 'Damaged Goods' at least hopefully it'd get to the meat soon; it didn't. It was all (or seemed to be) fast action, gags and melodrama. That and it was so removed from what I thought of as real life despite that fact this was a more "realistic" take... or at least that's what I think they were going for.
At the same time I kept watching; 'The End of The World' was uninspiring to me, 'The Unquiet Dead' was interesting (ha-ha the Doctor looks like a navvy); and then the Slitheen episode which I was sadly watching with a casual DW viewer who asked "Do you actually like this?" when the pig-man showed up... my heart sank.
Looking back Ecclescake's season wasn't that bad compared to some of what came later (and he was and still is a great actor) but from Rose I found it to be a bit of a misfire; too light, lacking in substance with just enough "emotion" and "angst" to disguise it as a deeper show than it was.
It also started the trend of "hanging out" with the companions family too much, which can be good but is often over-done to the point you just wish the Judoon or whoever will slaughter them (except Mickey/Rickey who I liked). Oh and Wilf was good but that is the future and in a season I admit now to generally liking.

The TVM was just there for me; I liked McGann despite his boring "generic Doctor" costume and ugly wig, and the fact his Doctor came to be after an anti-climatic death for the Seventh Doctor; oh and the half-human thing (what is the Doctor Spock now...!) but it at least seemed to take it mostly seriously. I've never been a fan of comedy-who, whether it was the Graham Williams era or McCoy's first season. And episode or two (as in the First Doctor's era) is fine with me but if every story is filled to the brim with gags it gets boring; especially as lets face it Doctor Who's humour has never been that amazing.
I think the TVM looked better than the 2005 season also; the Tardis interior though somewhat removed from the original at least seemed to fit the Seventh Doctor's personality, was visually pleasing and looked lived in again what with having a decent amount of furniture (I actually like Hartnell's the best; partly for the same reason).
I found it funny that there was an uproar at a chaste kiss with the companion back in 1997 but then later people didn't seem to mind the almost full-blown romance with the New Series...
I think that if 'Rose' was made and shown closer to 'Survival' it wouldn't have been as popular; say if that was the Doctor's regeneration story and this was the first of a regular series; I think the absence of Who (especially after the misfire of the TVM) made people need it more and more accepting of the faults of a new British made TV series. But I can't back that up with any hard data so I'll leave that train of thought...

I think one of my problems with 'Rose' was that it also cemented 'Doctor Who' as a kiddies show (which DW never was despite the generally good 'An Adventure in Space and Time' claiming it was; it was a family show geered towards teenagers and adults) in a way that the TVM wasn't. It also had that "look isn't Doctor Who a load of awesome rubbish" thing that turned me off (this was more a problem with 'End of The World' and 'World War Three' I grant you). That said it did give the generally good 'Torchwood' (after a rocky uninspiring start) and 'The Sarah Jane Adventures' (which ironically seemed more mature and "Old Who") as well as a few gems such as 'Human Nature' (though the book is better), 'Midnight' and 'Dalek' (for all its flaws and the fact 'Jubilee' is much better); all of which wouldn't be possible without 'Rose'. Russel T. Davies seems like a very nice guy as well so...

That said opinions are like ******s, everyone has one and if people loved 'Rose' or the TVM that is fine. I'll slink back to my grumpy old man minority!

I think because the kiss in the film was just so... awkward. It comes virtually apropos of nothing and only because Grace is a woman and the Doctor a man. It also came up against thirty years of accepted chastity as part of his character. By the time of the new series, I think there'd been a bit of a mellowing of opinions. At least, in some quarters. Coming to it as a kid, wide-eyed and with opinions, I really didn't like it because I thought to myself -- "Isn't this kinda similar to turning the gay character straight? I'm sure asexuality is a valid thing too." It still makes me a bit uncomfortable when I think about it, but I can buy it with the Eighth Doctor because they went all out and he went from nothing to everything.

Looking back on it now, I think I saw his attitude towards romance to be the same as Sherlock Holmes. He doesn't love Irine Adler, per se, he admires her and I think the Doctor had a similar admiration for Cameca. I kind of saw a similar attitude between the Fifth Doctor and Patience. Love? Probably not in the way we mean it, but care? Absolutely.

Ha. Four and Romana always struck me as the kind of couple that'd go "Kiss? What? Why? What do you need it for?"   Considering Gallifreyan society, holding hands like they did in Paris would be considered pretty daring. The funny thing about Grace and Eight was that in one reality, the Doctor did take up her offer and settle down on Earth into an ordinary life with her. That I can believe, it's the overt sexuality that puts me off because it seems so fundamentally out-of-character. I can't help but feel that he'd have other (less comparatively clumsy) ways of expressing his feelings if he wished.

Post-Rose I suspect he was lonely. Lonelier than we've ever seen the Doctor and Rose was there for him when he needed someone to be. Maybe he felt that he had more in common with Earth now than Gallifrey and tried to incorporate their customs. As Vastra says, "You might as well flirt with a mountain," well, what happens when the mountain does come to Mohammad? What does that actually look like? *points* Probably something like that. A kiss is an expected custom as a demonstration of feeling, so that's what he does.

If the TVM had been a BBC only production, it would have been a bigger success as the ratings were big for it over here. It was the American ratings that shot it down.

Ill always love the TVM, but I agree Rose worked better in the revamp sense and mystery, but that's because ALL the makers knew what they were doing

Well 8th was my 1st New Doctor so is always going to be preferred, it did its job and of course made sure the DW door was ajar  for BF.

I'm still slightly surprised the 9th worked a universe weary hero, discovering if life (the series) was still worth it but there was obviously something in how RTD wrote Rose that made it accessible to the modern mainstream audience.

Regards

mark687

A sad recurring facet of many a great European television programme. It's often a lack of ratings over in America that kill or sustain them after a season or two. The Avengers was a monumental achievement in that it was one of the first British television series to be broadcast during American prime time. Which says something when series as iconic (both then and now) as say Thunderbirds were wiped away due to disinterest from American broadcasters, despite being tailored for an American audience during the production process.

Doctor Who was also one of those series that was praised for its quintessential British qualities. It's probably not as prevalent given suggestions that the series has been "Americanised" (YMMV), but at the time that seemed a very important part of its identity. Ironically, it's entirely possible that the pilot's lack of exoticism for audiences in the States (i.e. setting it in an American city with American characters) may have lead to it being passed over.

It was a bit much for someone familiar with Who as well.

I've thought about it for a bit and the best analogy I can come up with for the TVM is that it's like a reference book for an RPG. There's a story seed (find the atomic clock), setting and character statistics, but no plot, per se. I think this sorta works in the same way that Big Trouble in Little China does, the sheer momentum just drives you forward. It's a credit to McGann and Ashbrook that they left so much of an impression that just this once, the plot doesn't really matter.

I think I would almost want to wonder about promotion (or lack of), more than quality or content, having some responsibility for different receptions for the TVM and Rose - I had no idea at the time that anyone had made a Doctor Who movie, whereas with the New Series it seemed like one really couldn't miss the fanfare even if they'd tried. Personally, it seemed like even if the movie wasn't sure what it was or where it was going, it was more sure than first season of the New Series seemed half the time.

I actually liked the TVM "info dump" - in a way it was like doing the best they could catching up after, or making up the tiniest bit for, the absence. If I'd been new to the series I think I'd have very much appreciated the pointer to background that I could explore if I wanted. I do like the level of respect for the series that it seemed to show to honor its history and not try and re-invent it, and I thought it was most wonderful that they included Sylvester. I give it plenty of points for that.

What I think I didn't like about the movie was that the threat in the story seems fairly diffused - more than once I've watched it and at the end it seemed like The Doctor might be a bigger threat to humanity than The Master, with whom I believe there's a bit of "Which face do I hate here?" that doesn't seem to really seem to help better focus on danger or adversaries in the story. I think that makes for a poorer introduction than it could have been, which is a shame after the movie didn't step as directly into the business of us not meeting the New Doctor at his best as with Six and Seven. For me it still amounted to a good introduction to Eight, but probably not a great one, and most of that seems to rest on my being very impressed with McGann rather than being impressed with Eight in that particular story.

I'm really not sure what keeps anyone's attention with the New Series, I'd have thought the show is just a bit too strange to make for rewarding human drama on the order of romance or complicated relationships. For me I think it works mainly on the strength of the excellent casting and acting, and the focus on straightforward aspects of human character, as it always has - those shining moments when The Doctor or companion insists on the importance of doing what's right, or when they attempt to do so. Capaldi's just tied up the season with a particularly stunning example of that, IMHO.

I can understand and tolerate the New Series' romantic angle even though it doesn't work as a romantic series for me, but I do always think there's supposed to be that stipulation about The Doctor getting involved with someone with such a different lifespan. It was wonderful when Romana came along that there might be some hope for The Doctor to have a romantic life, having a nice Gallifreyan girl on board who's more his own age, or at least potentially so. I otherwise always think there's supposed to be a speech that starts with The Doctor being old enough to be someone's great-grandfather 247 times over, and ends with where the prospective partners will both be in 500 years time, and I may eventually even be forced to question the ethnics of The President of the World hitting on the interns if the show opens that kettle of fish.

I've never understood though how the New Series thinks the companion is supposed to work as human drama - it seems like there's so much put into making them people we can relate to, and then they're turned unto people that you we should probably be barely able relate to at all. That particular quirk has gone on from Rose to Bill with a Cyber-Brig in the middle somewhere and I've no idea who they're appealing to with it.

However the show works for anyone, though, I'm glad they can enjoy it. It still manages to be excellent even for all the things I think it does wrong. :-) Just a shame the movie didn't catch on with TV audiences, though. I think it really deserved to.