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Post by nucleusofswarm on Jul 7, 2017 20:11:48 GMT
So, when the big moment comes at the end of the Xmas special, how should it go down?
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Jul 7, 2017 20:17:12 GMT
For me, after several very big, dramatic, sometimes slightly indulgent, regenerations, it would be a change, as well as fitting, if this one was smaller, quieter, more upbeat than sad. I'd like to see Capaldi go out calm and with a smile on his face. It's be dramatically ironic: a manic, impulsive Doctor who passes in tranquility, having made whatever peace he will with his fate and whatever they do with One. As sort of a visual reference, here's one of the last scenes from FullMetal Alchemist: Brotherhood (very minor spoiler). The father of our leads, Hohenheim, dies by his wife's grave, content that he's been with his children and lived a full, rewarding life. www.youtube.com/watch?v=Soamx3LOLHU&t=146sThat image of his body, bent over and smiling as it ages and decays is very striking, as well as oddly upbeat, and I'd really like something in that vein for Twelve.
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Post by mrperson on Jul 7, 2017 20:23:08 GMT
I'd like to see the First Doctor attempt to convince him to get a hold of himself and regenerate like the Timelord he is. Then that fails. Something happens, they deal with it, and the episode results. At an opportune moment, the First conks him over the head. (After all, it doesn't seem anyone is around to stop him this time). He falls unconscious. Unable to consciously resist regeneration, it happens, and 13 comments how how silly he was being.....
....then mind-scramble leading into the post-regeneration episode.
If that's too vapid even for a Christmas special, he just plain gets knocked unconscious in the course of the episode and regenerates, unable to stop it.
I rather tire of what I see as self-indulgent and melodramatic regeneration stories. Can't he just die doing something heroic and in-character without a whole bunch of speeches about not liking to change? We've already been there and done that. On the Doctor's side, 10. On the companion's side, 11.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2017 20:29:35 GMT
With Moff teasing that this will be a different type of regen and a lot more optimistic and light than the finale, I've no idea where we're going. It's fascinating that he's already dying. We don't need to speculate on what kills him or the like - he's done at the start. I think this will be more an episode of acceptance and optimism than epic confrontations with classic enemies like previous goodbyes. We don't even need an antagonist to finish him off. It's easily the least predictable farewell we've had. I'm so sorry to lose the Glasgow Mafia but I can't wait to see how they sign off before Chiwitel Ejifor or Natalie Dormer takes over at the end.
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Jul 7, 2017 23:52:22 GMT
With Moff teasing that this will be a different type of regen and a lot more optimistic and light than the finale Not to toot my own horn here, but that does seem to be in tune with my suggestion above. Question is: how accurate will it prove?
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Post by jasonward on Jul 7, 2017 23:53:50 GMT
Doc Twelve, mid speech raging against the injustice of regeneration, the First Doc picks up a rock and hits Twelve over the head saying "Yes, You must go now" and walks away.
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Post by tordred on Jul 7, 2017 23:54:47 GMT
With Moff teasing that this will be a different type of regen and a lot more optimistic and light than the finale, I've no idea where we're going. It's fascinating that he's already dying. We don't need to speculate on what kills him or the like - he's done at the start. I think this will be more an episode of acceptance and optimism than epic confrontations with classic enemies like previous goodbyes. We don't even need an antagonist to finish him off. It's easily the least predictable farewell we've had. I'm so sorry to lose the Glasgow Mafia but I can't wait to see how they sign off before Chiwitel Ejifor or Natalie Dormer takes over at the end. I think I see where Moffat's going. A tragic death in "The Doctor Falls", so a triumphant rebirth in the Christmas special. Perhaps titled "No More"?
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Post by sherlock on Jul 8, 2017 7:57:20 GMT
I hope it's as Moffat seems to be indicating and is optimistic. Regeneration stories have always been a bit miserable so it would be a nice change to have one focused on hope and rebirth. We've seen the twelfth Doctor die already, so time for his rebirth.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2017 8:52:38 GMT
Well, the First Doctor was the incarnation who took his regeneration with poise and dignity. It was something that he hoped would wipe away his own darkness, but was fearful that he might loose a part of himself in the process. He also wanted to die alone. He speculated that when the Change did come, he'd have to abandon Dodo in order to maintain his privacy in that delicate moment. However, when The Tenth Planet did roll around, he seemed to change his mind and let Ben and Polly in.
Maybe it'll be a mutual decision that each incarnation makes. They aren't forced, it's their choice to pass on.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2017 10:55:55 GMT
Stubbed toe
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Jul 8, 2017 11:41:30 GMT
Well, the First Doctor was the incarnation who took his regeneration with poise and dignity. It was something that he hoped would wipe away his own darkness, but was fearful that he might loose a part of himself in the process. He also wanted to die alone. He speculated that when the Change did come, he'd have to abandon Dodo in order to maintain his privacy in that delicate moment. However, when The Tenth Planet did roll around, he seemed to change his mind and let Ben and Polly in. Maybe it'll be a mutual decision that each incarnation makes. They aren't forced, it's their choice to pass on. That's an intriguing notion. Always thought of doing a thread devoted to that last bit. Incicdentally, given you liked my Hohenheim-esque idea of a peaceful death, you could probably find a way to squeeze in a quick cameo from, say, Bill or Nardole or someone else, and have them be the one to come by the Doctor's body and say, '' Silly old fool. Well, at least you died with a smile on your face''.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2017 21:54:23 GMT
Well, the First Doctor was the incarnation who took his regeneration with poise and dignity. It was something that he hoped would wipe away his own darkness, but was fearful that he might loose a part of himself in the process. He also wanted to die alone. He speculated that when the Change did come, he'd have to abandon Dodo in order to maintain his privacy in that delicate moment. However, when The Tenth Planet did roll around, he seemed to change his mind and let Ben and Polly in. Maybe it'll be a mutual decision that each incarnation makes. They aren't forced, it's their choice to pass on. That's an intriguing notion. Always thought of doing a thread devoted to that last bit. Incicdentally, given you liked my Hohenheim-esque idea of a peaceful death, you could probably find a way to squeeze in a quick cameo from, say, Bill or Nardole or someone else, and have them be the one to come by the Doctor's body and say, '' Silly old fool. Well, at least you died with a smile on your face''. How about the Doctor to the Doctor? Well... Each incarnation has had their own approach to their death. The First Doctor went with dignity. The Second Doctor went almost literally kicking and screaming (" No! No! No! NO! NO! NO!"). The Third Doctor actually died before he regenerated and did so because he couldn't go on living in fear, he had to face it. The Fourth Doctor strikes me as the incarnation where we most get a sense of foreboding on television, he seems to know that it's coming way before Logopolis shatters his back and he's resigned to it. He accepts that it must happen, but spends a lot of time brooding and seems to have lost his spark as a result of the knowledge. The Fifth Doctor died ultimately because of his own clumsiness with the bat's milk, but only seems to care about Peri's safety, so when he dies, he accepts it as a natural consequence. Again, there's the potential for death. In all three of his regeneration stories, the Sixth Doctor launches himself into his final end because it's the right thing to do. He gladly accepts his own death as the price to pay for Mel and the universe. The Seventh Doctor is terrified, he puts it off for as long as humanly possible because Death promised he would die afraid and alone. And that's precisely what happened. He died screaming in fear. In one of the best displays of dramatic irony I've ever seen, his next incarnation became pretty good friends with the woman who killed him. The Eighth Doctor angrily commits suicide. The Ninth Doctor happily gives up his life because it's time and partly because I think he wanted to die for a good cause. The Tenth Doctor is pretty resentful of the idea and I think that's because he's scared like Seven (being so frightened of the prophecy that when it does come, he feels he's wasted his time being afraid). I think the tragedy there was that he never overcame his grief. There was this great, big shadow constantly hanging over his life and he was sick of it. He wanted to balance out the loss and could never really pull it off because the emptiness was so vast. Somewhere in that transition, he lets go -- both of himself and the majority of his survivor's guilt. The Eleventh Doctor on the other hand, got that wish to do more with Trenzalore, so when he left, he was pretty contented. He'd lived an exceedingly long life and had nothing to be resentful of. Can't really say anything about Twelve yet.
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Post by Audio Watchdog on Jul 8, 2017 22:07:21 GMT
Well... Each incarnation has had their own approach to their death. The First Doctor went with dignity. The Second Doctor went almost literally kicking and screaming (" No! No! No! NO! NO! NO!"). I've always looked at the 2nd Doctor's regeneration as rape at the hands of the Time Lords. They literally destroy him while taking away his friends, and taking away their memories of him, while leaving stranded on Earth.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2017 22:19:32 GMT
Well... Each incarnation has had their own approach to their death. The First Doctor went with dignity. The Second Doctor went almost literally kicking and screaming (" No! No! No! NO! NO! NO!"). I've always looked at the 2nd Doctor's regeneration as rape at the hands of the Time Lords. They literally destroy him while taking away his friends, and taking away their memories of him, while leaving stranded on Earth. Well, it's certainly one of the harshest regenerations the Doctor has ever experienced. It can basically be looked at as an execution, which is almost stunningly dark given the Second Doctor's character. There's no last minute reprieve (unless you count Season 6b and that's only a stay of judgement), the "I am the Doctor!" speech that the new series is so fond of doing now only made things worse and those responsible for it win. It is unambiguously a loss, which is made all the more damning when you watch the end of The Seeds of Death where he's perfectly content to be shot having saved the Earth because it was on his terms. It ends up being a very, very cruel death.
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Jul 9, 2017 0:03:01 GMT
That's an intriguing notion. Always thought of doing a thread devoted to that last bit. Incicdentally, given you liked my Hohenheim-esque idea of a peaceful death, you could probably find a way to squeeze in a quick cameo from, say, Bill or Nardole or someone else, and have them be the one to come by the Doctor's body and say, '' Silly old fool. Well, at least you died with a smile on your face''. How about the Doctor to the Doctor? Wonder how that'd play out.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2017 0:29:52 GMT
How about the Doctor to the Doctor? Wonder how that'd play out. Maybe we'll get to find out? I think The Woman Who Killed the Doctor said it best, when he had a gun held to him by someone who's life had been ruined because of who he eventually became: And Susan steps between them. The assassin -- her name is Unity -- is a great character, a woman who hates the Doctor so much because of all he took away from her that she finds unique and thoroughly unpleasant ways for him to die. Hanging the Fourth Doctor by his scarf, decapitating the Fifth with a cricket bat, gunning down Two with the excuse "timey-wimey" for why she can do what she does, that sort of thing. The only reason she doesn't succeed is because his companions are the random factor that keeps him alive. Alan Moore had a curiously similar idea -- the Doctor is hunted down by an old man, his life constantly saved by a young, jubilant boy. The old man is his first incarnation trying to prevent his future coming to pass where he becomes an intergalactic terror and the boy is that very monster. The inevitable and unenviable future that cannot be avoided. But since the show tends not to be that brave with its ideas, I'd say it'd be very simple. The First Doctor places a hand against his cheek, reaches out to his future self and decides -- "No. No, let the future remain."
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Post by glutamodo on Jul 9, 2017 3:00:54 GMT
I've always looked at the 2nd Doctor's regeneration as rape at the hands of the Time Lords. They literally destroy him while taking away his friends, and taking away their memories of him, while leaving stranded on Earth. Well, it's certainly one of the harshest regenerations the Doctor has ever experienced. It can basically be looked at as an execution, which is almost stunningly dark given the Second Doctor's character. Yes, exactly. I've always considered Regeneration Two to be the result of a Death Sentence. (Or 1/12th of a death sentence, hah)
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Post by Sir Wearer of Hats on Jul 9, 2017 3:05:08 GMT
I'd like him to arrive in the town of Doctor aboard the Space Ark and see a statue of thevthree of them in the town centre, he won. They're safe, he's remembered. A little girl skips up to him and tells him he looks like the statue and he smiles at her saying "not for long" he steps back into the TARDIS.
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Post by relativetime on Jul 9, 2017 3:36:57 GMT
The Twelfth Doctor regenerates into himself and we get Peter Capaldi for five more years.
But, really, I'd just like to see him come to terms with his regeneration and depart as a hero, not with a whimper - I do NOT want a repeat of the The End of Time and that includes a farewell tour of all his past companions (I'd much prefer to have him hallucinate them like the Eleventh Doctor did in Time of the Doctor).
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Post by J.A. Prentice on Jul 10, 2017 4:53:55 GMT
I'd like to see something quiet and sober. Capaldi's had his epic finale; now it's time for something a little more subdued. In my ideal world, there wouldn't even be an outside threat, but we all know the BBC's not going to let that one slide by. No fireworks. No saving whole worlds. We've done that. This is the quiet after the storm, where the Doctor reflects and finally lets go, welcoming her new life...
Pronoun choice entirely intentional.
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