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Post by charlesuirdhein on Jul 8, 2017 15:38:27 GMT
Hi gang! We've got all the regenerations, including a "proper" one from Six to Seven, except that of Two to Three. No, I'm not counting the "Devious" material included on "The War Games" DVD release, that is what it is, a curio fan piece containing Jon Pertwee's last performance as the Doctor.
However I have read (where escapes me) that Jon Pertwee had been cast as the Third Doctor while "The War Games" was still being made, so why don't we have a proper regeneration? My own notion is that they didn't want to film it twice because the BBC were moving from monochrome to colour broadcast for the series, and even then that would have hit a hiccough since "Spearhead from Space" had to be made entirely on film.
And why didn't Troughton return for the regeneration if the above theory about black and white is correct? Unlike Colin Baker who had a legitimate grievance with the BBC authorities and didn't come back, I can't see why he didn't.
Has anyone seen or read anything that sheds light on this? I've picked up the Patrick Troughton biography by his son but I've not finished it yet so the answer MIGHT be in there.
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Post by mark687 on Jul 8, 2017 16:00:28 GMT
Hi gang! We've got all the regenerations, including a "proper" one from Six to Seven, except that of Two to Three. No, I'm not counting the "Devious" material included on "The War Games" DVD release, that is what it is, a curio fan piece containing Jon Pertwee's last performance as the Doctor. However I have read (where escapes me) that Jon Pertwee had been cast as the Third Doctor while "The War Games" was still being made, so why don't we have a proper regeneration? My own notion is that they didn't want to film it twice because the BBC were moving from monochrome to colour broadcast for the series, and even then that would have hit a hiccough since "Spearhead from Space" had to be made entirely on film. And why didn't Troughton return for the regeneration if the above theory about black and white is correct? Unlike Colin Baker who had a legitimate grievance with the BBC authorities and didn't come back, I can't see why he didn't. Has anyone seen or read anything that sheds light on this? I've picked up the Patrick Troughton biography by his son but I've not finished it yet so the answer MIGHT be in there. Official reason from Dicks Pertwee Casting wasn't announced until after the end scene but not the Trail scene in Ep 10 of War Games was shot.
From TardisWiki
The scene where the Doctor argues with the Time Lords was filmed approximately three weeks after Jon Pertwee had been contracted to take over from Patrick Troughton, but the scene where the Doctor's exile sequence (the ending of episode 10) begins was filmed several weeks earlier when the next actor to play the Doctor was still under negotiation so no complete transformation was seen
Regards
mark687
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Post by charlesuirdhein on Jul 8, 2017 16:05:25 GMT
Hi gang! We've got all the regenerations, including a "proper" one from Six to Seven, except that of Two to Three. No, I'm not counting the "Devious" material included on "The War Games" DVD release, that is what it is, a curio fan piece containing Jon Pertwee's last performance as the Doctor. However I have read (where escapes me) that Jon Pertwee had been cast as the Third Doctor while "The War Games" was still being made, so why don't we have a proper regeneration? My own notion is that they didn't want to film it twice because the BBC were moving from monochrome to colour broadcast for the series, and even then that would have hit a hiccough since "Spearhead from Space" had to be made entirely on film. And why didn't Troughton return for the regeneration if the above theory about black and white is correct? Unlike Colin Baker who had a legitimate grievance with the BBC authorities and didn't come back, I can't see why he didn't. Has anyone seen or read anything that sheds light on this? I've picked up the Patrick Troughton biography by his son but I've not finished it yet so the answer MIGHT be in there. Official reason from Dicks Pertwee Casting wasn't announced until after the end scene but not the Trail scene in Ep 10 of War Games was shot.
From TardisWiki
The scene where the Doctor argues with the Time Lords was filmed approximately three weeks after Jon Pertwee had been contracted to take over from Patrick Troughton, but the scene where the Doctor's exile sequence (the ending of episode 10) begins was filmed several weeks earlier when the next actor to play the Doctor was still under negotiation so no complete transformation was seen
Regards
mark687
Obliged! Well, that's half of the query solved. Now why didn't Troughton appear in "Spearhead..."? |
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bobod
Chancellery Guard
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Post by bobod on Jul 8, 2017 16:28:02 GMT
Same as Colin - he'll have been working elsewhere and unavailable for such a short sequence.
Colin said no to the regeneration scene as he was disinclined to commit to a modicum of work for someone letting him go, which could prevent him taking better and bigger work (if he'd agreed to do the regeneration scene he'd have lost out on the Corpse tour) but he's made it clear many times he'd have agreed to do one more full season or one more full story but one scene was too little to tie himself up for. So in principle he wasn't against coming back to film more.
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Post by mark687 on Jul 8, 2017 16:28:32 GMT
Presumably he was filming TV versions of either Little Women or The Six of Wives of Henry VIII.
Regards
mark687
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Post by relativetime on Jul 8, 2017 16:30:18 GMT
Official reason from Dicks Pertwee Casting wasn't announced until after the end scene but not the Trail scene in Ep 10 of War Games was shot.
From TardisWiki
The scene where the Doctor argues with the Time Lords was filmed approximately three weeks after Jon Pertwee had been contracted to take over from Patrick Troughton, but the scene where the Doctor's exile sequence (the ending of episode 10) begins was filmed several weeks earlier when the next actor to play the Doctor was still under negotiation so no complete transformation was seen
Regards
mark687
Obliged! Well, that's half of the query solved. Now why didn't Troughton appear in "Spearhead..."? At a guess, I'd say no one really thought it was necessary at the time. I reckon they just didn't feel like there'd be that much to show and that it'd be kind of pointless to have Patrick Troughton show up for a production only for a single short scene that he might not even have a single line in. |
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Post by escalus5 on Jul 8, 2017 16:43:58 GMT
Same as Colin - he'll have been working elsewhere and unavailable for such a short sequence. Colin said no to the regeneration scene as he was disinclined to commit to a modicum of work for someone letting him go, which could prevent him taking better and bigger work (if he'd agreed to do the regeneration scene he'd have lost out on the Corpse tour) but he's made it clear many times he'd have agreed to do one more full season or one more full story but one scene was too little to tie himself up for. So in principle he wasn't against coming back to film more. I seem to remember reading or hearing somewhere -- it may have been Colin himself speaking at a convention -- that he was offered at least one whole story (with the understanding that he would regenerate at the end) or perhaps even half a season. |
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Post by mrperson on Jul 8, 2017 18:25:32 GMT
Hmmm...
I suppose I always took at as an indication of:
(1) the unique circumstances. That is, the Timelords tell him that they're going to force him to change his appearance in addition to exile. It wasn't a normal regeneration.
(2) the fact that they didn't really seem to have settled on the concept of regeneration. 1 & 2 talked about how they can "renew" themselves, and that this was actually tied to the TARDIS. I had thought it was either Pertwee or Baker who first used the term "regeneration".
Still, they did show 1 changing into 2 regardless of the precise nature of the change then conceived of, so that may not be a tenable explanation.
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Post by charlesuirdhein on Jul 8, 2017 19:50:46 GMT
Same as Colin - he'll have been working elsewhere and unavailable for such a short sequence. Colin said no to the regeneration scene as he was disinclined to commit to a modicum of work for someone letting him go, which could prevent him taking better and bigger work (if he'd agreed to do the regeneration scene he'd have lost out on the Corpse tour) but he's made it clear many times he'd have agreed to do one more full season or one more full story but one scene was too little to tie himself up for. So in principle he wasn't against coming back to film more. I seem to remember reading or hearing somewhere -- it may have been Colin himself speaking at a convention -- that he was offered at least one whole story (with the understanding that he would regenerate at the end) or perhaps even half a season. My own possibly wonky memory of that story is entirely the other way around in that Colin asked for a regeneration story and was told he would get the scene from the beginning of "Time and the Rani" and that was all he would get, so he told them where to go. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2017 22:04:01 GMT
I seem to remember reading or hearing somewhere -- it may have been Colin himself speaking at a convention -- that he was offered at least one whole story (with the understanding that he would regenerate at the end) or perhaps even half a season. My own possibly wonky memory of that story is entirely the other way around in that Colin asked for a regeneration story and was told he would get the scene from the beginning of "Time and the Rani" and that was all he would get, so he told them where to go. I have similar memories of the "only one serial" story as well rather than just the one scene. He asked for the season, they said they'd get back to him and nothing came of it. |
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bobod
Chancellery Guard
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Post by bobod on Jul 8, 2017 23:55:32 GMT
Same as Colin - he'll have been working elsewhere and unavailable for such a short sequence. Colin said no to the regeneration scene as he was disinclined to commit to a modicum of work for someone letting him go, which could prevent him taking better and bigger work (if he'd agreed to do the regeneration scene he'd have lost out on the Corpse tour) but he's made it clear many times he'd have agreed to do one more full season or one more full story but one scene was too little to tie himself up for. So in principle he wasn't against coming back to film more. I seem to remember reading or hearing somewhere -- it may have been Colin himself speaking at a convention -- that he was offered at least one whole story (with the understanding that he would regenerate at the end) or perhaps even half a season. Hang on, sorry, that's right - it was four episodes he got offered. Over the years since Colin's telling of the story has mutated, for a while he used to suddenly stop and correct himself then he used to stop and doubt himself now whenever I've seen him he just says 'one scene' (obv there may be occasions he still says 'a story' and I've not been there for that). It's the more recent telling I repeated above. But basically the reason we're all coming up with different lengths is that Colin has told varying accounts over the years. He also tells the Maxil hat story using whichever of the words Ermintrude or Esmeralda come to hand on the day. |
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Post by Ela on Jul 16, 2017 7:14:27 GMT
Hmmm... I suppose I always took at as an indication of: (1) the unique circumstances. That is, the Timelords tell him that they're going to force him to change his appearance in addition to exile. It wasn't a normal regeneration. (2) the fact that they didn't really seem to have settled on the concept of regeneration. 1 & 2 talked about how they can "renew" themselves, and that this was actually tied to the TARDIS. I had thought it was either Pertwee or Baker who first used the term "regeneration". Still, they did show 1 changing into 2 regardless of the precise nature of the change then conceived of, so that may not be a tenable explanation. Your points 1 and 2 are what I was thinking, as well. Regeneration wasn't really well-established back then in the way it is now. |
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Post by number13 on Jul 16, 2017 12:49:05 GMT
Hi gang! We've got all the regenerations, including a "proper" one from Six to Seven, except that of Two to Three. No, I'm not counting the "Devious" material included on "The War Games" DVD release, that is what it is, a curio fan piece containing Jon Pertwee's last performance as the Doctor. However I have read (where escapes me) that Jon Pertwee had been cast as the Third Doctor while "The War Games" was still being made, so why don't we have a proper regeneration? My own notion is that they didn't want to film it twice because the BBC were moving from monochrome to colour broadcast for the series, and even then that would have hit a hiccough since "Spearhead from Space" had to be made entirely on film. I've always assumed (with no supporting evidence whatsoever) that it was a decision made as part of the clean break between the Second and Third Doctor's eras. Perhaps the actors' schedules played a part, but even if so, it would have fitted the intentions of the production team - to effectively start almost from scratch. The switch from mono to colour is the technical part of this but this time it went so much deeper into the storyliine than any other classic era transition. The Doctor loses his freedom to travel in Space and Time, loses his companions, even loses parts of his memory and knowledge. But he gains a 'home' and a group of humans who would become his friends and members of a team. It was a near-complete reboot of the whole format of the show, not only a new Doctor. Most fans love and respect Patrick Troughton's wonderful performance now, with very good reason, but at the time 'Doctor Who' had been losing viewers and its future was even in some doubt. Showing a transition would have diminished the sense of a new start, away from the 'spaceships and rockets' stories of the later Troughton era and coming literally down to Earth. ('The Ambassadors of Death' script was a hangover from that period, reworked into the new era, but I like it a lot.) I've imagined the Time Lords sending the regenerating Doctor and his TARDIS into the Vortex together - he staggers out and collapses at the start of 'Spearhead' so presumably the regeneration happened en route, adding to his sense of confusion and displacement. |
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Post by acousticwolf on Jul 16, 2017 15:25:02 GMT
I've imagined the Time Lords sending the regenerating Doctor and his TARDIS into the Vortex together - he staggers out and collapses at the start of 'Spearhead' so presumably the regeneration happened en route, adding to his sense of confusion and displacement. This is my belief too (none of this 6b rubbish, unless of course its after 6b  .) Cheers Tony |
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